Iraq Vet Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) I often wonder how rich these people really are. They seem to not care about losing $50-$100 million in expired/fired/released and buyouts contracts. Forbes puts their wealth at about $4.2 to $4.3 Billion. I wonder if that is conservative... by a lot. I often wonder if they are really in the $10 billion range. You don't spend money like they do if the pockets are incredibly deep. I realize that a $25 million contract is not a lot of money as a percentage of wealth.. roughly 0.6%... but you don't make billions by wasting money... even such low percentages. I also realize that $25 million is tax deduction because it is an expense.....as is this new field. But still the money they poured into contracts and into this town is insane!!! Edited March 22, 2017 by Iraq Vet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 They bought the entire business not just the building. Right? Don't know if they bought business and building or just building but I think that doesn't matter - I have strong beliefs they are going to build a brewery there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I think the building is going to be renovated and made into PS&E offices as well as Sabres' administrative offices (possibly even Bills). Probably a small television studio. Also a large Sabres/Bills/OneBuffalo Store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 assessed value in no way means market value for a property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsfanAZ Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Kind of, the building was sold from the owners to 3 holding companies (for $3) that they owned and the Pegulas bought the holding companies. I don't believe any other assets were transferred. It's not really a complex of buildings. It's a building that is about 79k square feet. It has multiple addresses though. The Pegulas paid $7M for a building assessed at $255k. So you are questioning a financial move made by a guy who developed The Harbor Center? Pegula has bought and sold a ton of real estate. Tax assessment has nothing to do with actual property value. I often wonder how rich these people really are. They seem to not care about losing $50-$100 million in expired/fired/released and buyouts contracts. Forbes puts their wealth at about $4.2 to $4.3 Billion. I wonder if that is conservative... by a lot. I often wonder if they are really in the $10 billion range. You don't spend money like they do if the pockets are incredibly deep. I realize that a $25 million contract is not a lot of money as a percentage of wealth.. roughly 0.6%... but you don't make billions by wasting money... even such low percentages. I also realize that $25 million is tax deduction because it is an expense.....as is this new field. But still the money they poured into contracts and into this town is insane!!! He sold assets from his oil and gas business to shell for 4.7B and then he sold more assets to another company for almost 2B. He still retains oil and gas rights in several states as well as Bills, Sabres, American, Bandits, Harbor Center, and a country music production company. Their cash flow is strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I often wonder how rich these people really are. They seem to not care about losing $50-$100 million in expired/fired/released and buyouts contracts. Forbes puts their wealth at about $4.2 to $4.3 Billion. I wonder if that is conservative... by a lot. I often wonder if they are really in the $10 billion range. You don't spend money like they do if the pockets are incredibly deep. I realize that a $25 million contract is not a lot of money as a percentage of wealth.. roughly 0.6%... but you don't make billions by wasting money... even such low percentages. I also realize that $25 million is tax deduction because it is an expense.....as is this new field. But still the money they poured into contracts and into this town is insane!!! The TV networks pay the NFL Billions to broadcast their games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peevo Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I think the building is going to be renovated and made into PS&E offices as well as Sabres' administrative offices (possibly even Bills). Probably a small television studio. Also a large Sabres/Bills/OneBuffalo Store. This makes sense. As a Millenial (I hate using that word, but born in 1987 I am definitely in that demo), it seems we can't get enough craft beer in this town. I wonder when the ceiling hits on the breweries/distilleries. Every where I go, Resurgence, Thin Man, Big Ditch, CBW are all usually pretty busy. But I'm def concerned about over saturation. Regarding it seems inevitable new stadium, keep an eye on what happens with the new train/transit hub in Buffalo. I'd absolutely think the logistics of a new light rail/Amtrak/Metro bus station and its proximity to, lets say, miles and miles of undeveloped waterfront or east side property, is a MAJOR tell as to what the Pegulas ultimately will do. And as someone who's read a lot, and I really mean a lot, about how taxpayer funded stadia rarely, if ever, benefits the taxpayers, I'd have to support any structure that gets long term, multiple uses. A retractable roof or dome is an absolute must. It's almost inarguable. Who can possibly defend spending upwards of $800 million of taxpayer money on a building to be used 8 times a year? It's abhorrent. Hell, KeyBank Center maybe gets 100 days a year of use. Maybe, including Bandits games, WWE and concerts. Is it even 100 times a year? The possibility of luring big time events, say, Wrestlemania (Buffalo is a BIG TIME WWE market), or deeper NCAA basketball tournaments, or major college football neutral site games, can only happen with a domed or retractable roof stadium. I know, these are all out-of-the-box ideas, but in my opinion, if we're spending that kind of taxpayer money, we better use the damn building. AT&T Stadium's hosted the Final Four, Wrestlemania, Alabama football, the College Football National championship. I know, Dallas is major market. I know. I'm not an idiot. I'm just saying Buffalo needs to start thinking in these terms with new stadium construction. I need concerts, conventions, trade shows, etc. Think big. Buffalo's too often bogged down by it's own inferiority complex. We just hosted one of the best-attended opening rounds of the NCAA tournament. This is all positive. We need more of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 This makes sense. As a Millenial (I hate using that word, but born in 1987 I am definitely in that demo), it seems we can't get enough craft beer in this town. I wonder when the ceiling hits on the breweries/distilleries. Every where I go, Resurgence, Thin Man, Big Ditch, CBW are all usually pretty busy. But I'm def concerned about over saturation. Regarding it seems inevitable new stadium, keep an eye on what happens with the new train/transit hub in Buffalo. I'd absolutely think the logistics of a new light rail/Amtrak/Metro bus station and its proximity to, lets say, miles and miles of undeveloped waterfront or east side property, is a MAJOR tell as to what the Pegulas ultimately will do. And as someone who's read a lot, and I really mean a lot, about how taxpayer funded stadia rarely, if ever, benefits the taxpayers, I'd have to support any structure that gets long term, multiple uses. A retractable roof or dome is an absolute must. It's almost inarguable. Who can possibly defend spending upwards of $800 million of taxpayer money on a building to be used 8 times a year? It's abhorrent. Hell, KeyBank Center maybe gets 100 days a year of use. Maybe, including Bandits games, WWE and concerts. Is it even 100 times a year? The possibility of luring big time events, say, Wrestlemania (Buffalo is a BIG TIME WWE market), or deeper NCAA basketball tournaments, or major college football neutral site games, can only happen with a domed or retractable roof stadium. I know, these are all out-of-the-box ideas, but in my opinion, if we're spending that kind of taxpayer money, we better use the damn building. AT&T Stadium's hosted the Final Four, Wrestlemania, Alabama football, the College Football National championship. I know, Dallas is major market. I know. I'm not an idiot. I'm just saying Buffalo needs to start thinking in these terms with new stadium construction. I need concerts, conventions, trade shows, etc. Think big. Buffalo's too often bogged down by it's own inferiority complex. We just hosted one of the best-attended opening rounds of the NCAA tournament. This is all positive. We need more of that. craft beer is something like 10 percent of the overall beer market so they have plenty of room to grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 The TV networks pay the NFL Billions to broadcast their games Exactly, it's important to remember that the huge numbers going out are offset by huge numbers coming in. Still, I'm thrilled that they are not the frugal types who try to cut corners. I'm fully convinced winning to their main priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 So you are questioning a financial move made by a guy who developed The Harbor Center? Pegula has bought and sold a ton of real estate. Tax assessment has nothing to do with actual property value. im not questioning anything. I was explaining what the transaction was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Leave it to Erie County to try and get a few extra dollars out of people who have poured tens of millions of their own money into the area and created jobs of their own doing and have brought big events here based on Harbor Center etc... It's embarrassing these politicians are so short sighted and how they can't seem to understand how much they have already done for this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I think the building is going to be renovated and made into PS&E offices as well as Sabres' administrative offices (possibly even Bills). Probably a small television studio. Also a large Sabres/Bills/OneBuffalo Store. where are you getting this info from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 where are you getting this info from? i've heard that from a few people so it seems to have some legs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) And as someone who's read a lot, and I really mean a lot, about how taxpayer funded stadia rarely, if ever, benefits the taxpayers, I'd have to support any structure that gets long term, multiple uses. A retractable roof or dome is an absolute must. It's almost inarguable. Who can possibly defend spending upwards of $800 million of taxpayer money on a building to be used 8 times a year? It's abhorrent. Hell, KeyBank Center maybe gets 100 days a year of use. Maybe, including Bandits games, WWE and concerts. Is it even 100 times a year? The possibility of luring big time events, say, Wrestlemania (Buffalo is a BIG TIME WWE market), or deeper NCAA basketball tournaments, or major college football neutral site games, can only happen with a domed or retractable roof stadium. I know, these are all out-of-the-box ideas, but in my opinion, if we're spending that kind of taxpayer money, we better use the damn building. AT&T Stadium's hosted the Final Four, Wrestlemania, Alabama football, the College Football National championship. I know, Dallas is major market. I know. I'm not an idiot. I'm just saying Buffalo needs to start thinking in these terms with new stadium construction. I need concerts, conventions, trade shows, etc. Think big. Buffalo's too often bogged down by it's own inferiority complex. We just hosted one of the best-attended opening rounds of the NCAA tournament. This is all positive. We need more of that. This is why I am leaning more toward the 'solution' of a new build, but more of a cheaper and modest vision in Orchard Park. Thinking along the lines of Seattle/Pittsburgh/Cincy/Philly/Cleveland. You really have to rack your brain to come up with a number of realistic events that are too large for Keybank Center. Maybe a few one-off things like a Wrestlemania or a Final 4 are a dream. A couple concerts... but stadium musical tours are rare. Conventions? I dont know. Really not much of a market for that in Buffalo but maybe a few. Possibly could kidnap the low-attended MAC Football Championship game... and maybe a neutral site NCAA Football game... unfortunately though, NCAA Football isnt a big draw here, and I am not sure who is tripping over themselves to play here. I think the NCAA Ntnl Championship Game is a near impossibility. A stadium downtown would require drastic purchasing of property/eminent domain. Lots of engineering and studies, utility relocation and upgrading, traffic issues.... Plus the price tag for an enclosed or retractable multi-use stadium on top of that... doesnt seem worth it... A vision of downtown, you can have put a brand new convention center and a brick and mortar amphitheater downtown for a small fraction of the price and fill every possible need, while bringing even more people downtown annually. Keep the stadium in Orchard Park is fine. I dont see the value of crowbarring this thing with that large of a footprint downtown. Edited March 22, 2017 by May Day 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) i've heard that from a few people so it seems to have some legs yea I wasnt criticizing I was just curious if there was actual info for this or just speculation... the exec's and managers from 716 rest. and Pegula sports have been touring breweries in the area so I thought they might want to open their own brewery, this building might fit the bill Edited March 22, 2017 by PaattMaann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 yea I wasnt criticizing I was just curious if there was actual info for this or just speculation... the exec's and managers from 716 rest. and Pegula sports have been touring breweries in the area so I thought they might want to open their own brewery, this building might fit the bill interesting. anybody know the distribution rules in new york? in carolina here i believe a brewery can self distribute up to 25k barrels per year before they have to sell to distributor but they are going to move that up to 100k barrels soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) yea I wasnt criticizing I was just curious if there was actual info for this or just speculation... the exec's and managers from 716 rest. and Pegula sports have been touring breweries in the area so I thought they might want to open their own brewery, this building might fit the bill A lot of it is speculation and connecting the dots I think I think it has been rumored that the Pegulas would like to clear out space in the Keybank Center for fan amenities. That would include them booting that strange aeronautical museum that used to rent there... as well as the Sabres Store and Admin/Ticketing Offices. It makes sense that these would be moved right next door. They could also create a much better retail store, and also make it a downtown Bills store location as well. Would be a nice opportunity to consolidate various offices they have (I know they have bounced around a little bit from the HSBC Building to the Creamery). Probably have a Bills Ticket Office location as well as one for the Arena. You would also assume that they would like to create a nice space for the MSG WNY as well as maybe something for their record label endeavors (as far as the label goes, its a wild guess) As far as the possibility of a 'Brewery' goes. I would think that if they did it.... they would just have microbrews for 716. Why compete with themselves kitty-corner? They could serve them at 716... and maybe even in the Arena. Edited March 22, 2017 by May Day 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I often wonder how rich these people really are. They seem to not care about losing $50-$100 million in expired/fired/released and buyouts contracts. Forbes puts their wealth at about $4.2 to $4.3 Billion. I wonder if that is conservative... by a lot. I often wonder if they are really in the $10 billion range. You don't spend money like they do if the pockets are incredibly deep. I realize that a $25 million contract is not a lot of money as a percentage of wealth.. roughly 0.6%... but you don't make billions by wasting money... even such low percentages. I also realize that $25 million is tax deduction because it is an expense.....as is this new field. But still the money they poured into contracts and into this town is insane!!! What on Earth are you talking about? Holy cow! And as someone who's read a lot, and I really mean a lot, about how taxpayer funded stadia rarely, if ever, benefits the taxpayers, I'd have to support any structure that gets long term, multiple uses. A retractable roof or dome is an absolute must. It's almost inarguable. Who can possibly defend spending upwards of $800 million of taxpayer money on a building to be used 8 times a year? It's abhorrent. Hell, KeyBank Center maybe gets 100 days a year of use. Maybe, including Bandits games, WWE and concerts. Is it even 100 times a year? The bolded part doesn't make a lot of sense--you say you have read a lot about how new stadiums rarely benefit taxpayers....and then you go on to say you support this exact thing. And you list the same old things ("multiple use") that have been debunked and led to the conclusion that it's a bad deal for taxpayers. In fact, you even cite the fact that the other sports venue in town is underutilized---yet a much larger stadium is going to get more use?? This makes no sense. EVERY city building a new NFL stadium thinks it's going to get the NCAA sweet 16. They all think they are going to get huge conventions. It doesn't happen--conventions go to convention centers for obvious reasons---and nationwide, there is a huge glut of convention space because...you guessed it, municipalities have tried to lure new convention business with new cneters, despite their current centers being underbooked. Even if these mega shows/concerts/tournaments ever did appear here, these would be such rare big ticket events that they would have no impact on reducing the public debt on the stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) interesting. anybody know the distribution rules in new york? in carolina here i believe a brewery can self distribute up to 25k barrels per year before they have to sell to distributor but they are going to move that up to 100k barrels soon. No rules to my knowledge about those caps. 25k barrels would be a crazy amount for them to produce, especially early on, nothing for them to worry about. Side note: what a stupid law! Isn't this America and capitalism? If a brewery could self distribute that amount why the hell shouldn't they be allowed to? As far as someone else commenting about them competing with themselves in that location. Not really. Has anyone ever tried getting into 716 and had to wait? Exactly, another space for people to pre game, post game, watch games, visit year round and make that area viable. And yes they can then have some of their own brew on tap at 716. Again I'm just speculating based on my knowledge that they are touring breweries, so when I saw their purchase of this building (at a very steep mark up) it just made sense to me that they might make a brewery out of that spot. Edited March 22, 2017 by PaattMaann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 As far as the possibility of a 'Brewery' goes. I would think that if they did it.... they would just have microbrews for 716. Why compete with themselves kitty-corner? They could serve them at 716... and maybe even in the Arena. Why are there multiple Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts at the same intersection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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