GunnerBill Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I am not at all sold on Wentz. If his first 4 games were like his last 12 there would be people writing him off as a bust (not that it would be fair after such a limited sample size) but his first 4 games being his best are still dictating the narrative is "promising rookie". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I'd vomit if they drafted Kizer. Josh Allen may end up at the top. There isn't a top 10 player (maybe top 20) at QB in this draft. Someone will get picked before then but this is not a good QB draft. Watson is the only guy I'd consider at 10 because he competes. Not one of these guys is improving us in 2017 IMO. The highlighted area is where I strenuously but respectfully disagree with your approach to the draft. I not only don't expect a first round qb to help us next season---I don't care either. My position (as you know from my ad nauseam posts) is that this organization needs to get its franchise qb prospect on board sooner rather than later. As far as I'm concerned TT is adequate as a stopgap qb. When you watch him play compared to a complete qb there is a qualitative difference that is stark. The Bills haven't had a legitimate franchise qb for twenty years. Enough is enough! You can't fix a problem if you don't address it. For too many people fear of using a high pick on a qb that doesn't work out makes them freeze in acting. That's not my approach. If it doesn't work out then try again. If the second try doesn't work out the try again. Etc, etc. There are many first round picks at other positions that fail. So why be crippled with fear over a qb selection? You can draft a highly rated safety or corner (top of the draft board) but when all is said and done that selection only incrementally improves the team. You can draft the third rated qb with a low first round or high second round rating and have it make a dramatic effect on the team. As I cited before Derek Carr, a qp, dramatically changed the fortunes of the Raiders while Mack, a DE/LB who was at the top of the board and is one of the best defensive players in the league has a significantly less effect on the franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 The highlighted area is where I strenuously but respectfully disagree with your approach to the draft. I not only don't expect a first round qb to help us next season---I don't care either. My position (as you know from my ad nauseam posts) is that this organization needs to get its franchise qb prospect on board sooner rather than later. As far as I'm concerned TT is adequate as a stopgap qb. When you watch him play compared to a complete qb there is a qualitative difference that is stark. The Bills haven't had a legitimate franchise qb for twenty years. Enough is enough! You can't fix a problem if you don't address it. For too many people fear of using a high pick on a qb that doesn't work out makes them freeze in acting. That's not my approach. If it doesn't work out then try again. If the second try doesn't work out the try again. Etc, etc. There are many first round picks at other positions that fail. So why be crippled with fear over a qb selection? You can draft a highly rated safety or corner (top of the draft board) but when all is said and done that selection only incrementally improves the team. You can draft the third rated qb with a low first round or high second round rating and have it make a dramatic effect on the team. As I cited before Derek Carr, a qp, dramatically changed the fortunes of the Raiders while Mack, a DE/LB who was at the top of the board and is one of the best defensive players in the league has a significantly less effect on the franchise. 100% agree John. Now's the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Oh Watson is well ahead of Kizer on my board. I have a second round grade on Kizer. He has some nice tools but there is a lot of work to be done for him. I feel like Watson could start day 1 and if you set him up for success, good line, good run game, decent weapons and used his legs a little he could be a good rookie QB. Kizer is a project for me. I have a mid 2nd on him. He has some tools. Gracias. As I said in a prior post I'm not worried about having my qb prospect start right away. My approach would be to get the qb on the roster and start working with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Oh Watson is well ahead of Kizer on my board. I have a second round grade on Kizer. He has some nice tools but there is a lot of work to be done for him. I feel like Watson could start day 1 and if you set him up for success, good line, good run game, decent weapons and used his legs a little he could be a good rookie QB. Kizer is a project for me. I have a mid 2nd on him. He has some tools. Really? He sails soooo many throws, Gunner. Scares the bejeezus out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 The highlighted area is where I strenuously but respectfully disagree with your approach to the draft. I not only don't expect a first round qb to help us next season---I don't care either. My position (as you know from my ad nauseam posts) is that this organization needs to get its franchise qb prospect on board sooner rather than later. As far as I'm concerned TT is adequate as a stopgap qb. When you watch him play compared to a complete qb there is a qualitative difference that is stark. The Bills haven't had a legitimate franchise qb for twenty years. Enough is enough! You can't fix a problem if you don't address it. For too many people fear of using a high pick on a qb that doesn't work out makes them freeze in acting. That's not my approach. If it doesn't work out then try again. If the second try doesn't work out the try again. Etc, etc. There are many first round picks at other positions that fail. So why be crippled with fear over a qb selection? You can draft a highly rated safety or corner (top of the draft board) but when all is said and done that selection only incrementally improves the team. You can draft the third rated qb with a low first round or high second round rating and have it make a dramatic effect on the team. As I cited before Derek Carr, a qp, dramatically changed the fortunes of the Raiders while Mack, a DE/LB who was at the top of the board and is one of the best defensive players in the league has a significantly less effect on the franchise. I think that this is all fair. I just don't see a guy that I'd want. I've said that Watson would be my choice. People that know their stuff here are high on Mahomes as a prospect. I like Josh Allen some too. The goal is to find a franchise guy though and not a guy whose ceiling is a solid starter. We already have that. I would bet no more than 2 (maybe 3) QBs in this draft have a better 2 year stretch than what Tyrod just had in any point of their career. So, we HAVE to be right if we are going to draft a guy. If 20 QBs get drafted (as an example) 90% will never amount to what we have now. That's kind of my issue with this draft. If you fire your bullet in 2018 that number may be 4 or 5 QBs (some whom have high floors). I'd rather shoot my shot then. It isn't about a fear of using a prime asset on a QB it's about the likelihood of getting the right guy. I hope that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Trade up a la Sammy and get him imo. Just what this team needs - giving up more picks for a huge gamble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigK14094 Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 In the end, cap management and the Bills stragedy to spend the cap to deliver a playoff team is flawed. Whaley, it seems, believes in cheap (not great) QB's and putting the money in the D line, and apparently CB's (if he pays gilmore)and perhaps running back. EJ can't play...maybe whaley will sign him for the vet minimum.....currently looking for a HC who will agee with that. Now, Lynn has seen EJ in action, and I expect that we won't see both back. Lynn will be HC with no EJ....or new HC, and miracle of miracles, the new coach wants to give EJ another shot. EJ's next shot should be the arena league, if that is still around. He needs to follow the JP Losman model.....of course, JP never played another NFL down after leaving the Bills (yes, he was on a couple of rosters for a few weeks.) I think Whaley is wrong to toss TT...maybe he wants him to resign for less bucks, but, who exactly wrote this current contract that the Bills want to use to dump him? Whaley put the bills in this situation. TT is the best QB in ten years....and, he is developing. Cousins is coming on in his fourth or fifth year....his fourth playing I think. (sat behind RG3 for first year) TT sat for 4 years at Ravens, and now two on the field. TT will sign elsewhere, and untimately show that Whaley is wrong letting him go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Just what this team needs - giving up more picks for a huge gamble. Correct. Can't keep gambling with other teams leftovers. That didn't work with Fitz/RJ/TT. 7-9 to 9-7 is all the junkpile will yield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 In the end, cap management and the Bills stragedy to spend the cap to deliver a playoff team is flawed. Whaley, it seems, believes in cheap (not great) QB's and putting the money in the D line, and apparently CB's (if he pays gilmore)and perhaps running back. EJ can't play...maybe whaley will sign him for the vet minimum.....currently looking for a HC who will agee with that. Now, Lynn has seen EJ in action, and I expect that we won't see both back. Lynn will be HC with no EJ....or new HC, and miracle of miracles, the new coach wants to give EJ another shot. EJ's next shot should be the arena league, if that is still around. He needs to follow the JP Losman model.....of course, JP never played another NFL down after leaving the Bills (yes, he was on a couple of rosters for a few weeks.) I think Whaley is wrong to toss TT...maybe he wants him to resign for less bucks, but, who exactly wrote this current contract that the Bills want to use to dump him? Whaley put the bills in this situation. TT is the best QB in ten years....and, he is developing. Cousins is coming on in his fourth or fifth year....his fourth playing I think. (sat behind RG3 for first year) TT sat for 4 years at Ravens, and now two on the field. TT will sign elsewhere, and untimately show that Whaley is wrong letting him go. He may find some sucker elsewhere but he won't be effective. Nobody else commits to Rexs bedrock ground and pound offense. Everybody else passes the ball, as we all know that is not Tyrods strong suit. Good luck to whoever signs him as they will need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 The highlighted area is where I strenuously but respectfully disagree with your approach to the draft. I not only don't expect a first round qb to help us next season---I don't care either. My position (as you know from my ad nauseam posts) is that this organization needs to get its franchise qb prospect on board sooner rather than later. As far as I'm concerned TT is adequate as a stopgap qb. When you watch him play compared to a complete qb there is a qualitative difference that is stark. The Bills haven't had a legitimate franchise qb for twenty years. Enough is enough! You can't fix a problem if you don't address it. For too many people fear of using a high pick on a qb that doesn't work out makes them freeze in acting. That's not my approach. If it doesn't work out then try again. If the second try doesn't work out the try again. Etc, etc. There are many first round picks at other positions that fail. So why be crippled with fear over a qb selection? You can draft a highly rated safety or corner (top of the draft board) but when all is said and done that selection only incrementally improves the team. You can draft the third rated qb with a low first round or high second round rating and have it make a dramatic effect on the team. As I cited before Derek Carr, a qp, dramatically changed the fortunes of the Raiders while Mack, a DE/LB who was at the top of the board and is one of the best defensive players in the league has a significantly less effect on the franchise. It's ALWAYS the right time to be trying to find your franchise QB. Trubisky is a very good looking prospect.........I'd day along the lines of maybe a slightly less athletic Paxton Lynch. Would Paxton Lynch have been a worse choice...in retrospect.....than that game-changer Shaq Lawson? Even if Shaq reaches his ceiling his impact would be a fraction of a good QB. That's why in my scale of positional evaluation QB is 10 and the next most important(pass rusher) is a 4. And that is probably conservative in the grand scheme. When you have a very good QB you are never far from being a contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) Correct. Can't keep gambling with other teams leftovers. That didn't work with Fitz/RJ/TT. 7-9 to 9-7 is all the junkpile will yield. You really aren't going to do much better than that with the (s)crap(s) we go after... Trubisky is the only one I would look at in the first....but I am not sure I would pass up on Hooker if he was there at 10... Edited January 7, 2017 by Reed83HOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Correct. Can't keep gambling with other teams leftovers. That didn't work with Fitz/RJ/TT. 7-9 to 9-7 is all the junkpile will yield. 7-9 with the 10th best offense in the league. A rookie quarterback is not going to elevate the efficiency of the offense to the point of winning four more games. That would probably require the #1 or #2 offense. And it's laughable to think Trubisky is capable of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 It's ALWAYS the right time to be trying to find your franchise QB. Trubisky is a very good looking prospect.........I'd day along the lines of maybe a slightly less athletic Paxton Lynch. Would Paxton Lynch have been a worse choice...in retrospect.....than that game-changer Shaq Lawson? Even if Shaq reaches his ceiling his impact would be a fraction of a good QB. That's why in my scale of positional evaluation QB is 10 and the next most important(pass rusher) is a 4. And that is probably conservative in the grand scheme. When you have a very good QB you are never far from being a contender. I know you posted it before, but you had a good take on what positions should get in what round and the order of importance - care to post that again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 7-9 with the 10th best offense in the league. A rookie quarterback is not going to elevate the efficiency of the offense to the point of winning four more games. That would probably require the #1 or #2 offense. And it's laughable to think Trubisky is capable of that. This whole Taylor thing would be surprising if Whaley wasn't just AWFUL wrt evaluating QB's. I think Whaley could get lucky and find a QB using a more passive approach........like finding a Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson on day 3 of a draft.......but when the chips are down and you need to draft a rookie QB in round 1 to start right away..........I think his bad eyesight wrt QB position is a huge problem for this organization. This team has defied great odds by missing the playoffs for nearing two straight decades.......and they do so by continually making un-sound decisions. Dropping Taylor without a better solution behind him would be one of the more notably dumb things they've done in that 2 decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 This whole Taylor thing would be surprising if Whaley wasn't just AWFUL wrt evaluating QB's. I think Whaley could get lucky and find a QB using a more passive approach........like finding a Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson on day 3 of a draft.......but when the chips are down and you need to draft a rookie QB in round 1 to start right away..........I think his bad eyesight wrt QB position is a huge problem for this organization. This team has defied great odds by missing the playoffs for nearing two straight decades.......and they do so by continually making un-sound decisions. Dropping Taylor without a better solution behind him would be one of the more notably dumb things they've done in that 2 decades. To take it a step further it's especially mind-numbing when the GM's job is clearly on the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 To take it a step further it's especially mind-numbing when the GM's job is clearly on the line. Mind numbing to where I'll skip on going to any games next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Mind numbing to where I'll skip on going to any games next year. That's how I feel if Tyrod stays to not throw some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Chris Trapasso Retweeted Sarah Barshop @sarahbarshop 8m8 minutes ago Sarah Barshop Retweeted Sarah Barshop Since 2010, the only teams to win a playoff game without a 3,000-yard passer or 1,000-yard receiver were Broncos (Tebow) and Texans in 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 That's how I feel if Tyrod stays to not throw some more. Please block me already. I'm aware of your schtick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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