Bagel Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 For all their flaws Tyrod and EJ are both noted for being diligent, hardworking players. And yet, to my eye, neither player appeared to progress from last year to this year. Rather, they exhibited the same flaws. Accordingly, how much blame (if any) do you assign to the quarterback coach for their apparent lack of development? David Lee has a lengthy resume. But it’s not exactly littered with success. http://prod.static.bills.clubs.nfl.com/assets/pdf/pdf-bios/Lee-David-Bio.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Lee should be excused asap. Imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 David Lee was on Rex's staff both in NJ and here. The new HC may or may not retain him but typically they bring in their own guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmur66 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I have yet to see a QB "develop" in Buffalo ever. It's been pretty much they are what they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I have been killing David Lee all year. Hence why I have no faith that this year did ANYTHING for Jones either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollars 2 donuts Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 For all their flaws Tyrod and EJ are both noted for being diligent, hardworking players. And yet, to my eye, neither player appeared to progress from last year to this year. Rather, they exhibited the same flaws. Accordingly, how much blame (if any) do you assign to the quarterback coach for their apparent lack of development? David Lee has a lengthy resume. But it’s not exactly littered with success. http://prod.static.bills.clubs.nfl.com/assets/pdf/pdf-bios/Lee-David-Bio.pdf Great post and great point, Bagel. As well I agree with Ry, Yolo and Bmur. Even if we had still finished at 7-9 I can't imagine we would have as much of a problem with TT if he had an old QB rating in the mid 90s (sorry, it is the one I am more familiar with), with 3,600-3,800 passing yards, 26 TDs and an average success rate passing over the middle. Jeremy White's comments the other day on an article he read adds fuel to what you're saying here. This year Tyrod had one of the highest tendencies (if not the highest) for QBs as far as percentage of passes thrown to the sidelines at 67%, with most other QBs in the 50s. Howard brought up that when you get to the sheer number of throws (may have been completions, so forgive me if I am wrong) he had 33 passes over the middle in 15 games...slightly more than 2 a game. He was 20-6 (tds-Ints) through 14 games in 2015, and was 17-6 through 15 games in 2016. He is good at protecting the ball, but in this league, regardless of how much we run, we need greater production through the air. In short, after two years of work with his QB coach TT is almost the same guy he was in game 29 as he was in game 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 David Lees biggest contribution to the NFL was the Wild Cat and that is a play (series of plays) that takes the Ball out of the Hands of the player that he is charged to develop. If that is not damning enough I don't know what is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollars 2 donuts Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 David Lees biggest contribution to the NFL was the Wild Cat and that is a play (series of plays) that takes the Ball out of the Hands of the player that he is charged to develop. If that is not damning enough I don't know what is Wow...wow. Well said, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadingpain Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Diamond Dave is dust. Having said that, either you can do it or you can't do it. EJ can't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I have yet to see a QB "develop" in Buffalo ever. It's been pretty much they are what they are Sadly the only QB the Bills could be credited to developing is Joe Ferguson, all the rest were go elsewhere (Kemp from San Diego, Kelly in the USFL, Flutie in the CFL, Bledsoe in New England). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollars 2 donuts Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Sadly the only QB the Bills could be credited to developing is Joe Ferguson, all the rest were go elsewhere (Kemp from San Diego, Kelly in the USFL, Flutie in the CFL, Bledsoe in New England). In his 7th year in 1979, with no OJ since '77, Fergy was the number one QB in the NFL through 8 weeks and number one in the AFC through 12. Considering how limited his passing was his rookie year (by design due to OJ) he really became a passing QB, albeit with only moderate success, but nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I have been killing David Lee all year. Hence why I have no faith that this year did ANYTHING for Jones either Very valid thought on Cardale.David Lees biggest contribution to the NFL was the Wild Cat and that is a play (series of plays) that takes the Ball out of the Hands of the player that he is charged to develop. If that is not damning enough I don't know what isHilarious because it's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo1105 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 None. I've always been a believer that when you get to the pros, you either have it or you don't as a player. Most NFL teams run variations of the same playbook, teach the same concepts, and go over the same drills. I'm not saying that players don't get better or worse but I think it has more to do with player repitition and learning as the game slows for them. I think that coaching has very little effect besides concepts. Just my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sack Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 OP the premise of your post is based on your observation and you've framed the debate as if it's a fact that neither QB developed from 2015 to 2016. I think Tyrod's dip in passing performance can be largely attributed to Watkins missing 10 games and Woods tearing his MCL, and the fact that Clay has a chronic knee and doesn't practice. Goodwin was also banged up. So Tyrod's performance was expectedly off due to personnel injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 For all their flaws Tyrod and EJ are both noted for being diligent, hardworking players. And yet, to my eye, neither player appeared to progress from last year to this year. Rather, they exhibited the same flaws. Accordingly, how much blame (if any) do you assign to the quarterback coach for their apparent lack of development? David Lee has a lengthy resume. But it’s not exactly littered with success. http://prod.static.bills.clubs.nfl.com/assets/pdf/pdf-bios/Lee-David-Bio.pdf This is why every Team needs a farm club. None. I've always been a believer that when you get to the pros, you either have it or you don't as a player. Most NFL teams run variations of the same playbook, teach the same concepts, and go over the same drills. I'm not saying that players don't get better or worse but I think it has more to do with player repitition and learning as the game slows for them. I think that coaching has very little effect besides concepts. Just my opinion and yet these sluggards worked it into the CBA to limit practices and contact thus making it even harder than before to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwell Tarly Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 These players need to take some ownership in their own development too. You can hire the best trainer in the world and if you don't put the effort in, the results won't be there. In the end, it's a marriage of talent and drive that makes the best qbs. The further down the list you go, one or the other is lacking.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpleman Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) None. I've always been a believer that when you get to the pros, you either have it or you don't as a player. Most NFL teams run variations of the same playbook, teach the same concepts, and go over the same drills. I'm not saying that players don't get better or worse but I think it has more to do with player repitition and learning as the game slows for them. I think that coaching has very little effect besides concepts. Just my opinion :thumbsup: A coach is there to be a objective observer of what you do right and wrong, they point it out and suggest ways to correct your mistakes and motivate you to do more of what you do right. As a player it is up to you to use their guidance to get better. If you are unwilling to listen and put in the effort to get better you will never get better. Edited January 6, 2017 by simpleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpleman Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) This is why every Team needs a farm club. and yet these sluggards worked it into the CBA to limit practices and contact thus making it even harder than before to improve. Unfortunately everyone knows this, but Football is a business first. The owners want to maximize their profits by minimizing expenses like farm teams. It is better for business and profits to leave it to the colleges. It doesn't make the game of Football better, it just makes it more profitable. The reality is that it is "All about the money." Players want to minimize their risks of injury by limiting contact so they can make more money over a longer career. That is great for talented vets, but is a blockade for rookies fighting to break into the league. Again, for the successful vets it is "All about the money." Edited January 6, 2017 by simpleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr1 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 somebody save us from 6 int in 436 attempts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 somebody save us from 6 int in 436 attempts That said, he still stinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonabb Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Development of a 22-23 year old player is a myth. What everyone seems to be doing is conflating "development" with "repair." A useful definition of development is "a specified state of growth or advancement." Repair means to "fix or mend (a thing suffering from damage or a fault). Developing a QB suggests the QB is drafted with all the physical and mental skills necessary to play QB and he needs to develop those inherent skills further to succeed at the NFL level. Development means, in other words, to improve existing inherent abilities to their fullest capacity. Repair suggests that there are some major flaws, and in the case of QBs, those flaws that were inherent in college can't be developed because they are a limiting factor. The NFL is a filter where irreparable flaws are amplified and in most cases limit actual further development. Put another way, you can't fix EJs inaccuracy, it's built in muscle memory from what, 10+ years playing QB from pee wee through college? When you try to fix those flaws with game action, patience wears thin and the player is gone. And you can't develop "height" in TT and get him comfortable throwing over the middle. When he scans and reads the field, his tendency is revert to finding a player he can see outside the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I have yet to see a QB "develop" in Buffalo ever. It's been pretty much they are what they are Joe Ferguson says 'Hello'?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I have yet to see a QB "develop" in Buffalo ever. It's been pretty much they are what they are Have we ever seen bad QBs become good? We've certainly seen good become great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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