Let's stop the Watkins is a bust nonsense...its WRONG...

[Gugny]

I would argue none. The last three of last year he definitely was not 100%, and he dominated. Healthier than most times but his foot was still very very sore. And he was hobbling.

 

I think he hobbled off the field on Sunday because he knew if he stayed out there he was going to get killed. The pass that EJ threw behind him on the right side of the field was deadly.

 

Sammy Watkins' fragility (not criticizing; it's just a fact) is another solid reason why keeping Tyrod is not a good idea.

[Cripple Creek]

There are many receivers I would choose over Watkins, even some who are long in the tooth.

 

He has not lived up to expectations. (this cannot be denied) I don't know what that makes him, but, to this point you cannot say he was a worthwhile pick.

[Kirby Jackson]

There are many receivers I would choose over Watkins, even some who are long in the tooth.

 

He has not lived up to expectations. (this cannot be denied) I don't know what that makes him, but, to this point you cannot say he was a worthwhile pick.

Are they guys that you prefer as players or because they play more? It's a big distinction. When he is on the field he is in the league with the top guys. The 2nd half of 2015 and his per target numbers support that. The problem is that he has played just over 12 games a year and has left multiple games early. If you prefer other guys because you can depend on them more, that is fair to this point.

[Cripple Creek]

Are they guys that you prefer as players or because they play more? It's a big distinction. When he is on the field he is in the league with the top guys. The 2nd half of 2015 and his per target numbers support that. The problem is that he has played just over 12 games a year and has left multiple games early. If you prefer other guys because you can depend on them more, that is fair to this point.

of course, production matters over all else, doesn't it?

 

General ??? At what point does potential become wasted potential (whether through personal stupidity, injury, scheme etc)?

[Kirby Jackson]

of course, production matters over all else, doesn't it?

 

General ??? At what point does potential become wasted potential (whether through personal stupidity, injury, scheme etc)?

We aren't talking about potential. His per target production ranks with anyone. His snap count does not. That is why I asked the question.

[Nuncha]

He can't stay heathy and he plays soft.....Not good qualities for your number 1 WR.

 

A bust? Maybe not but he certainly wasn't worth TWO number 1 picks coming from a draft that was VERY deep at WR.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Azucho98

[thebandit27]

He can't stay heathy and he plays soft.....Not good qualities for your number 1 WR.

 

A bust? Maybe not but he certainly wasn't worth TWO number 1 picks coming from a draft that was VERY deep at WR.

He plays SOFT?

 

I'll await an example of that, while reminding you that he's played through rib, hip, groin, and foot injuries for 37 games.

[Cripple Creek]

We aren't talking about potential. His per target production ranks with anyone. His snap count does not. That is why I asked the question.

that may be your criteria, don't push it on me. Has he live up to his draft status? No. could he still? Yes, but the window is closing. His current production at the price paid say he was not worth it. You can throw out per snap this, per series that...doesn't matter to me. His overall production will be the determining factor on whether he was a "bust" or not.

[What a Tuel]

that may be your criteria, don't push it on me. Has he live up to his draft status? No. could he still? Yes, but the window is closing. His current production at the price paid say he was not worth it. You can throw out per snap this, per series that...doesn't matter to me. His overall production will be the determining factor on whether he was a "bust" or not.

 

There are two distinctions here that you are ignoring. Sammy Watkins is a top WR when he is healthy and on the field. That is unquestionable. To say you don't believe he has that talent because he doesn't produce on the level that you believe he should is nonsensical. You either make the distinction that he doesn't have the talent, or you stick with your point that he isn't producing because he isn't consistently on the field.

 

In a lot of people's opinion he has the talent, and has proven it on the field when healthy, he just needs to stay healthy and then he will be great for the Bills. Let's hope that starts this year after getting his foot right.

Edited January 3, 2017 by What a Tuel

[CardinalScotts]

I'll just say this he's 23 and we havent seem the best of him even start. Hopefully good health in 2017

[Alphadawg7]

He plays SOFT?

 

I'll await an example of that, while reminding you that he's played through rib, hip, groin, and foot injuries for 37 games.

 

I have to say Bandit, you are one of the few I respect around here by keeping a level head about things. The simple lack of logic and reason by so many posters around here is astonishing. How anyone can say Sammy plays soft is beyond me. He was one of the most dominant and productive receivers in football last year after he got healthy (and most the people slamming him also say Taylor is terrible, which would actually make Sammy that much better if he accomplished so much with what they call a terrible QB). The kid has played through all those injuries you mentioned where a lot of guys would have sat out. He goes over the middle, makes tough catches, etc. Enough with the Sammy bashing, he is an immense talent, and hopefully he can get the foot right this off season and be ready to a force like we KNOW he can be when healthy next year.

[Nuncha]

He plays SOFT?

 

I'll await an example of that, while reminding you that he's played through rib, hip, groin, and foot injuries for 37 games.

You don't see him duck out of bounds way ahead of defenders so he doesn't get hit? TV announcers notice and comment about it...he never goes and gets all he can.

[fansince88]

I like Watkins a lot and it is a shame he cant stay healthy.

 

With that said, he isn't a bust, but I think at this point he would have to be seen as a reach. 2 first rounders given up for him, (QB issues aside) and evans and OBJ (and arguably others) picked after him have been more productive.

 

Not saying he is a bust, but I don't think he was worth what we gave up, which I guess is a reach.

 

If he can somehow stay healthy, he will help this team get on the right track. huge if at this point

Agree. He isnt a bust but is a dissapointnent

[Cripple Creek]

There are two distinctions here that you are ignoring. Sammy Watkins is a top WR when he is healthy and on the field. That is unquestionable. To say you don't believe he has that talent because he doesn't produce on the level that you believe he should is nonsensical. You either make the distinction that he doesn't have the talent, or you stick with your point that he isn't producing because he isn't consistently on the field.

 

In a lot of people's opinion he has the talent, and has proven it on the field when healthy, he just needs to stay healthy and then he will be great for the Bills. Let's hope that starts this year after getting his foot right.

I'm not ignoring anything. He's good when on the field, really good. If he can't overcome the injury bug and put up numbers worthy of a 2 first round pick WR then he is lacking. Someone who does not live up to their draft status is by definition "a bust." The window hasn't closed, but, it is creeping down those runners.

[thebandit27]

 

I have to say Bandit, you are one of the few I respect around here by keeping a level head about things. The simple lack of logic and reason by so many posters around here is astonishing. How anyone can say Sammy plays soft is beyond me. He was one of the most dominant and productive receivers in football last year after he got healthy (and most the people slamming him also say Taylor is terrible, which would actually make Sammy that much better if he accomplished so much with what they call a terrible QB). The kid has played through all those injuries you mentioned where a lot of guys would have sat out. He goes over the middle, makes tough catches, etc. Enough with the Sammy bashing, he is an immense talent, and hopefully he can get the foot right this off season and be ready to a force like we KNOW he can be when healthy next year.

Thanks man.

 

As I've said, I have no issue with folks saying that the investment hasn't paid off due to lack of availability on the field.

 

His production when on the field (when taken in context) cannot possibly be questioned.

[Cripple Creek]

So let me get this straight:

A guy can be termed a bust despite producing over 2,500 yards and 17 TDs in 3 seasons while playing through injuries in an offense that throws the ball less than literally every other offense in the NFL?

That makes absolutely no sense.

He's not a bust by any definition.

In fact, through 2015, he lead the NFL in yards per target since he entered the league.

#contextmatters

Was he worth 2 first round picks? If not, then bust...if not with the Bills but with someone else then still a bust from a Bills draft perspective. It's really simple, you either live up to your draft status or you do not. The question "was he worth it" depends on the numbers he puts up.

[Alphadawg7]

that may be your criteria, don't push it on me. Has he live up to his draft status? No. could he still? Yes, but the window is closing. His current production at the price paid say he was not worth it. You can throw out per snap this, per series that...doesn't matter to me. His overall production will be the determining factor on whether he was a "bust" or not.

 

The only bust here is your posts:

 

He has appeared in 37 career games, and several of those he was not 100% healthy but played through pain and a few he had to exit early. Half of those games he played in he was saddled with those train wreck QB's of either EJ or Orton.

 

2459 yards, 16.1 YPC, 153 receptions, and 17 TDs.

 

How anyone can think that is bust material given he spent half of the games he played in catching passes from either EJ Manuel or Kyle Orton is beyond me. Factor in that is OC for 16 games was that joke Hackett, 18 games were by a run first OC who was fired in week 2 in Roman, and that he played several games hurt and that is actually quite remarkable.

 

In 7 of the final 9 games he played in last year he had at least 80 yards, and including 5 over 100 and 2 over 150 along with 7 TD's. He had a slow start to the year when he was not 100% healthy, and also missed 2 games. But when he was healthy and on the field, his production was in the top 3 of the entire NFL, and that was with a first time starting QB in Taylor that so many of you around here label as "terrible" (i do not share that opinion either).

 

Bust he is NOT, and its not even remotely debatable. He has PROVEN his talent was worth the cost, however, bad luck on injuries (he was NOT injury prone coming into the NFL) has slowed him a bit, but he is far from a bust. The biggest issue with his injuries has been how tough he is and trying to play through them causing some to linger. Hopefully, this offseason puts the foot issue behind him and he can be 100% this time by start of season. No reason to think he can't stay healthy considering he doesn't have a history of injuries prior to this.

Was he worth 2 first round picks? If not, then bust...if not with the Bills but with someone else then still a bust from a Bills draft perspective. It's really simple, you either live up to your draft status or you do not. The question "was he worth it" depends on the numbers he puts up.

 

Yes he is absolutely worth 2 first round picks from a talent perspective. His talent has proven that on the field. You can not predict injuries, especially on a guy who had no injury history. Just like you can not predict whether he will continue to be injured. His talent was worth the cost, period. That is all you can evaluate on right now.

 

Not to mention its not Sammys fault that he spent half of his career games catching passes from losers like EJ and Orton, dealing with three different OC in 3 years, and been on a the top rushing team in the NFL over those 3 years in a run first system.

[thebandit27]

You don't see him duck out of bounds way ahead of defenders so he doesn't get hit? TV announcers notice and comment about it...he never goes and gets all he can.

That's a nebulous and untrue criticism:

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=icjA5DfVwE4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d40Ao1qf96g

 

And by the way, Marvin Harrison made a career out of getting down and out of bounds early.

 

Soft is hardly the way to describe a guy that's played through as many injuries as he has.

Was he worth 2 first round picks? If not, then bust...if not with the Bills but with someone else then still a bust from a Bills draft perspective. It's really simple, you either live up to your draft status or you do not. The question "was he worth it" depends on the numbers he puts up.

So neither facts not context matter?

 

Gotcha.

 

He's not a bust.

 

Carson Palmer was a QB picked first overall, yet he never won a Super Bowl...bust?

 

No, because that would be a dumb way to define it.

 

He's producing on par with other #1 WRs when given the opportunity

[Cripple Creek]

The only bust here is your posts:

 

He has appeared in 37 career games, and several of those he was not 100% healthy but played through pain and a few he had to exit early. Half of those games he played in he was saddled with those train wreck QB's of either EJ or Orton.

 

2459 yards, 16.1 YPC, 153 receptions, and 17 TDs.

 

How anyone can think that is bust material given he spent half of the games he played in catching passes from either EJ Manuel or Kyle Orton is beyond me. Factor in that is OC for 16 games was that joke Hackett, 18 games were by a run first OC who was fired in week 2 in Roman, and that he played several games hurt and that is actually quite remarkable.

 

In 7 of the final 9 games he played in last year he had at least 80 yards, and including 5 over 100 and 2 over 150 along with 7 TD's. He had a slow start to the year when he was not 100% healthy, and also missed 2 games. But when he was healthy and on the field, his production was in the top 3 of the entire NFL, and that was with a first time starting QB in Taylor that so many of you around here label as "terrible" (i do not share that opinion either).

 

Bust he is NOT, and its not even remotely debatable. He has PROVEN his talent was worth the cost, however, bad luck on injuries (he was NOT injury prone coming into the NFL) has slowed him a bit, but he is far from a bust. The biggest issue with his injuries has been how tough he is and trying to play through them causing some to linger. Hopefully, this offseason puts the foot issue behind him and he can be 100% this time by start of season. No reason to think he can't stay healthy considering he doesn't have a history of injuries prior to this.

 

Yes he is absolutely worth 2 first round picks from a talent perspective. His talent has proven that on the field. You can not predict injuries, especially on a guy who had no injury history. Just like you can not predict whether he will continue to be injured. His talent was worth the cost, period. That is all you can evaluate on right now.

 

Not to mention its not Sammys fault that he spent half of his career games catching passes from losers like EJ and Orton, dealing with three different OC in 3 years, and been on a the top rushing team in the NFL over those 3 years in a run first system.

 

I apologize for having higher (winning) expectations than you do. If you feel, today, that Sammy Watkins was worth the price paid then we have nothing to talk about. Your mind is made up, mine waits to see results.

[Freddie's Dead]

You don't see him duck out of bounds way ahead of defenders so he doesn't get hit? TV announcers notice and comment about it...he never goes and gets all he can.

2nd and pu$$y against the Fish, two plays before the punt heard round the world.

[Cripple Creek]

So let me get this straight:

A guy can be termed a bust despite producing over 2,500 yards and 17 TDs in 3 seasons while playing through injuries in an offense that throws the ball less than literally every other offense in the NFL?

That makes absolutely no sense.

He's not a bust by any definition.

In fact, through 2015, he lead the NFL in yards per target since he entered the league.

#contextmatters

If his career were to end today, most definitely. Only a homer wouldn't see it as such.

[Alphadawg7]

I apologize for having higher (winning) expectations than you do. If you feel, today, that Sammy Watkins was worth the price paid then we have nothing to talk about. Your mind is made up, mine waits to see results.

 

If you average out his career stats based on yearly averages...he would be at over 1000 yards per season, 7.35 TDs per year, 16.1 YPC and that is with having Orton/EJ as your QB for HALF of all your career games. The worst OC I have ever seen in Hackett for 16 of those games. A run first OC in Roman for 18 of those games. Basically playing his entire career actually on a run first team. Dealing with THREE OC's in 3 seasons. And playing hurt in several of the games he did play in. Spending a season with a first time QB who is a run oriented QB. Having no real threat opposite of him to take pressure off him either.

 

Your bar of production is unrealistic considering all of that. Not to mention, all the games that he had very few targets from either a terrible offensive game plan or terrible QB play. What he has produced under all the circumstances is actually quite impressive.

 

So you asked is SAMMY worth it...the answer is YES, tha Sammy the PLAYER has the talent that justifies the cost. The situation he has been stuck in and the bad luck on injuries have reduced some of his production, but that doesn't take away from his talent nor make him a bust by any means.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[thebandit27]

If his career were to end today, most definitely. Only a homer wouldn't see it as such.

Massive cop out

 

Of course it would be a bust if he only played 3 seasons

 

Please tell me that you have a better point than that.

 

This thread started by comparing his numbers after 3 seasons to Julio Jones'...would Julio have been a bust at this point?

 

Now factor in the significant disparity in QB play and targets (because context matters whether you like it or not), and answer again.

 

Perhaps now you see the point

[Cripple Creek]

If you average out his career stats based on yearly averages...he would be at over 1000 yards per season, 7.35 TDs per year, 16.1 YPC and that is with having Orton/EJ as your QB for HALF of all your career games. The worst OC I have ever seen in Hackett for 16 of those games. A run first OC in Roman for 18 of those games. Basically playing his entire career actually on a run first team. Dealing with THREE OC's in 3 seasons. And playing hurt in several of the games he did play in. Spending a season with a first time QB who is a run oriented QB. Having no real threat opposite of him to take pressure off him either.

 

Your bar of production is unrealistic considering all of that. Not to mention, all the games that he had very few targets from either a terrible offensive game plan or terrible QB play. What he has produced under all the circumstances is actually quite impressive.

 

So you asked is SAMMY worth it...the answer is YES, tha Sammy the PLAYER has the talent that justifies the cost. The situation he has been stuck in and the bad luck on injuries have reduced some of his production, but that doesn't take away from his talent nor make him a bust by any means.

 

I average out stats by career production. You can have all of the ifs, ands, and buts you want. A player is judged by production over his career. If you read what I wrote I don't believe you will find I've called him a bust, but, based on the price paid, the potential is there.

[BuffaloHokie13]

Great post. Julio, just like Sammy, was a guy who was just obvious he was going to be a star. Unfortunately because of that obviousness, I had him two of his first three years on my fantasy team and I got burnt.

 

I'm not calling Sammy a bust by any means, and I know measurables aren't everything, but is it worth pointing out that Julio is bigger, faster, stronger, and has a better vertical?

[Alphadawg7]

Massive cop out

 

Of course it would be a bust if he only played 3 seasons

 

Please tell me that you have a better point than that.

 

This thread started by comparing his numbers after 3 seasons to Julio Jones'...would Julio have been a bust at this point?

 

Now factor in the significant disparity in QB play and targets (because context matters whether you like it or not), and answer again.

 

Perhaps now you see the point

 

Its a lost cause...he has decided that regardless of facts, circumstances, or logic that he is a bust. I am guessing he was unhappy the night we made the trade and drafted him too and is just continuously building his case to support his disapproval of the pick in the first place.

[Cripple Creek]

Massive cop out

Of course it would be a bust if he only played 3 seasons

Please tell me that you have a better point than that.

This thread started by comparing his numbers after 3 seasons to Julio Jones'...would Julio have been a bust at this point?

Now factor in the significant disparity in QB play and targets (because context matters whether you like it or not), and answer again.

Perhaps now you see the point

Cop out or reality? I have not called him a bust, but, I am realistic in my expectations. So far he hasn't lived up to his draft status, I hope that does change in the near future.

[Alphadawg7]

I average out stats by career production. You can have all of the ifs, ands, and buts you want. A player is judged by production over his career. If you read what I wrote I don't believe you will find I've called him a bust, but, based on the price paid, the potential is there.

 

Everything I posted was 100% fact...nothing was based on ifs or that. So this response has no value.

[Gray Beard]

Watkins is not a bust, but he may have been too expensive.

I never thought Donte Whitner was a bust, I just thought he was too expensive.

[Cripple Creek]

Its a lost cause...he has decided that regardless of facts, circumstances, or logic that he is a bust. I am guessing he was unhappy the night we made the trade and drafted him too and is just continuously building his case to support his disapproval of the pick in the first place.

 

Please do consider reading what I've actually written, not what you want me to have written. Today the man is not worth the price paid. If you feel differently then god bless.

[Kirby Jackson]

that may be your criteria, don't push it on me. Has he live up to his draft status? No. could he still? Yes, but the window is closing. His current production at the price paid say he was not worth it. You can throw out per snap this, per series that...doesn't matter to me. His overall production will be the determining factor on whether he was a "bust" or not.

Not pushing anything on anyone. I asked if you preferred other receivers because they play more or because you think that they are better?

 

If you believe there are a lot of guys better I suggest you compare them on a per target basis. What does each guy do when the ball comes his way? Watkins will be right there with anyone. His catch rate, yards per catch, TDs, etc.. That's how you judge production. There are plenty of metrics that allow for a comparison that will be much more accurate than "that's what I think."

 

If you are saying he's only played 37 games and left others early thats a fair argument. "I'd take Doug Baldwin because I know that I can count on him every week" is a different conversation than "I think that Doug Baldwin is a better player." I'm simply asking for a clarification.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[Alphadawg7]

Please do consider reading what I've actually written, not what you want me to have written. Today the man is not worth the price paid. If you feel differently then god bless.

 

I have read what you wrote...you have labeled him a bust both directly and in back tracking talk. You also said you would take many WR's over him even old ones, thats how little you think of him.

 

You keep citing "production" for the reason, but you blatantly ignore the high level of production he has achieved on a team that is the bottom of the league in pass attempts, a team that he spent HALF his career catching passes with the disaster of Orton and EJ, on a team that is the top rushing team in the NFL during his 3 year career, on a team that that has had 3 OC's in his 3 year career including one of the worst I have ever seen the NFL in Hackett, and that he played several of those games hurt to try and help the team.

 

I don't know many WR's in the NFL that would have fared much better, if any, under the exact same circumstances here. On a talent basis, which is what determines his draft value, he is among the best in the NFL and worhty of his cost. But you blame SAMMY for things that were not his fault. You hold SAMMY accountable for the fact that our OC didn't throw him the ball enough. You blame SAMMY for the lack of talent throwing the ball. You blame SAMMY for al these things outside of his control.

 

But the facts remain, that when given the opportunities he is highly productive and one of the best in the entire NFL. The ONLY thing that has been an issue is the unlucky break with the injury this year and a little last year. But given his history shows no signs of injury issues, its not really fair to assume it will continue to plague him. Calvin Johnson dealt with injuries too, but that didn't make him less talented. The difference is he had a strong armed QB who is talented force feeding him the ball. Put Sammy in Detroit and he would probably lead the NFL in just about every receiving category there is much like Calvin.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[davspo]

He is not a bust, but he is no where near what you would expect from the 4th over all pick and first receiver taken off the board. It's really not even debatable.

[Kirby Jackson]

Massive cop out

 

Of course it would be a bust if he only played 3 seasons

 

Please tell me that you have a better point than that.

 

This thread started by comparing his numbers after 3 seasons to Julio Jones'...would Julio have been a bust at this point?

 

Now factor in the significant disparity in QB play and targets (because context matters whether you like it or not), and answer again.

 

Perhaps now you see the point

He is also 23 YEARS-OLD!!!!

 

And stemming off of what Alpha said earlier thanks for always taking a well reasoned, level-headed approach. You really do raise the level of conversation around here.

 

I'm not calling Sammy a bust by any means, and I know measurables aren't everything, but is it worth pointing out that Julio is bigger, faster, stronger, and has a better vertical?

I think that's fair but Sammy runs crisper routes, has more burst and has better hands. They are different players.

 

Obviously, it isn't fair to compare the 2 based on their career production as they are in different places. There is a reason though that scouts had them graded so similarly (and highly).

He is not a bust, but he is no where near what you would expect from the 4th over all pick and first receiver taken off the board. It's really not even debatable.

That's kind of the debate. He is worth it when he's on the field. His per target numbers are staggering. He hasn't been healthy and doesn't get the ball enough when he is. If received the 4 more targets a game that some of the best guys are getting his gross numbers would be ridiculous. Now, he needs to get healthy and the Bills have to use him to get that to come to fruition. Will either of those things happen? Who knows Edited January 3, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[Leroi]

You don't see him duck out of bounds way ahead of defenders so he doesn't get hit? TV announcers notice and comment about it...he never goes and gets all he can.

Dolphins game. Ducked out instead of getting the first. Cost us the game. That was a defining moment in his career. He needs to change his playing culture.

 

 

Imo

[jumbalaya]

Sammy could catch 200 balls next year from Tyrod and we will still have the worst passing attack in the NFL.

 

Up to this point, Sammy cost two much and has been hurt too much.

 

He could be great if he played a full season and had an above average pro passer, hopefully we find out but we may never know.

[What a Tuel]

Dolphins game. Ducked out instead of getting the first. Cost us the game. That was a defining moment in his career. He needs to change his playing culture.

 

 

Imo

 

You have really went off the deep end with your hot takes.

[thebandit27]

Cop out or reality? I have not called him a bust, but, I am realistic in my expectations. So far he hasn't lived up to his draft status, I hope that does change in the near future.

This is a significantl different statement than saying he'd be considered a bust right now as you seemed to be implying above

[Big Turk]

Oh, no question. He's incredible.

Except against Gilmore, lol

[Cripple Creek]

 

Everything I posted was 100% fact...nothing was based on ifs or that. So this response has no value.

One man's facts are another's opinion. I'm perfectly fine with you having your point of view and I haven't felt the need to tell you that your opinions have no value. Why the cantankerousness? We see things differently. I prefer to look at the here and now, you prefer otherwise. It's an ok thing.

This is a significantl different statement than saying he'd be considered a bust right now as you seemed to be implying above

I'll invite you to show me where.