Problem with ground & pound

[atlbillsfan1975]

 

I thought from the many Freddie fans that Freddie is the best we have had since Thurman?

Freddie was a good back and a better team mate and person. He is not in the same class talent wise. Did you see last week just before the half where McCoy stayed in bounds and took a hit to keep the clock going? Almost every back allows themselves to get taken out of bounds there. Talent and brains and i think he is warming to playing in Buffalo.

[Manther]

It's great to see the Bills running game make such giant strides, but the NFL of 2015, with its rules so heavily favoring passing, makes this offensive philosophy problematic. The biggest problem with it is that in general no matter how much your team is dominating the game, this offensive style tends to keep the game close. In a game that is close as the 4th quarter winds down, anything can happen. And with the Bills that is generally a bad thing.

 

Take Sunday's game for example. I listen to Chris Brown and Sal C. go on about how well the Bills played, how great the offensive design was etc etc. True enough, but with all that going for them, and all their talent, playing at home with zero turnovers, this game was TIED with less than two minutes to go. A blown coverage gets them the win, but we all know in that situation ANYTHING could happen, and a tipped ball or fumble could have cost them a game wherein they played so well and dominated. Why? Because a conservative, ground and pound O kept the score close, and even a journeyman QB like Hoyer, behind in the game and forced to air it out, brings them back to a toss up with less than two minutes to go.

 

Doug Marone loved to pound the ball, and loved to tell everybody how important winning the turnover battle was. But check the Bills record under him, and you will see that they lost an inordinate amount of games when they WON the turnover battle, and squeaked out wins when they won that battle by a margin of two or three. Why - because his ground and pound kept the other team close, and an unlucky break or bad last half of fourth quarter cost them games they dominated in turnovers and play.

 

Not dissing the run game, but simply pointing out the downside of that O philosophy, given the rules we have in NFL 2015.

I strongly agree! It leaves little room for error in a game where humans make errors. You need to grab the other team by the throat when you can and bury them. Win the game in the first half if you can. I think of it like the coaches are trying to win a game of chess instead of letting the players ein the game.

the problem with ground and pound is that offensive lines are rarely good enough to do it anymore. Dallas did it last year... Can you think of any other recent examples where an O line was that dominant?

Dallas yes. San Fran recently. Seattle when they had Walter Jones, Steve Hutchison and crew. That line made Shaun Alexander look like a HOF and dominated.

 

It is rare to have an oline that can dominate the entire game, every game. But, that is the exception to the original post.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Manther

[CardinalScotts]

hate for facts to get in the way;

 

top rushing Seattle- Tampa- Panthers- Buffalo- Minnesota- Pittsburgh- Chiefs- Arizona- Bengals thats a lot of the teams in the playoffs, or may be soon

 

top passing Patriots-Saints-Arizona-San Diego-Pittsburgh-Atlanta-Giants-Raiders-Lions-Ravens Pats, Cards balanced offense, Pitt balanced offense

 

the rest are done

Edited December 9, 2015 by CardinalScotts

[Beerball]

Is there a team that has a losing record when they rush for 130 or more?

go look it up

 

I thought from the many Freddie fans that Freddie is the best we have had since Thurman?

Count me as a fan, I don't know how someone couldn't be. Doesn't mean he's better than McCoy, also doesn't mean Jackson wasn't the best since Thurman until McCoy arrived.

It's fine when your defense is playing at a high level.

 

We just don't have that

You prefer more passing which typically gives the opposition more offensive plays? Your point doesn't have a point. (IMO)

[3rdand12]

It's great to see the Bills running game make such giant strides, but the NFL of 2015, with its rules so heavily favoring passing, makes this offensive philosophy problematic. The biggest problem with it is that in general no matter how much your team is dominating the game, this offensive style tends to keep the game close. In a game that is close as the 4th quarter winds down, anything can happen. And with the Bills that is generally a bad thing.

 

Take Sunday's game for example. I listen to Chris Brown and Sal C. go on about how well the Bills played, how great the offensive design was etc etc. True enough, but with all that going for them, and all their talent, playing at home with zero turnovers, this game was TIED with less than two minutes to go. A blown coverage gets them the win, but we all know in that situation ANYTHING could happen, and a tipped ball or fumble could have cost them a game wherein they played so well and dominated. Why? Because a conservative, ground and pound O kept the score close, and even a journeyman QB like Hoyer, behind in the game and forced to air it out, brings them back to a toss up with less than two minutes to go.

 

Doug Marone loved to pound the ball, and loved to tell everybody how important winning the turnover battle was. But check the Bills record under him, and you will see that they lost an inordinate amount of games when they WON the turnover battle, and squeaked out wins when they won that battle by a margin of two or three. Why - because his ground and pound kept the other team close, and an unlucky break or bad last half of fourth quarter cost them games they dominated in turnovers and play.

 

Not dissing the run game, but simply pointing out the downside of that O philosophy, given the rules we have in NFL 2015.

you mentioned Marrone. thats points against you right away : )

 

Controlling the time of possession wins games and seasons.

We are living proof. Keeping the defense upon the field is the way to tire them and take advantage. that's how Bills have been beaten. for years and years

Not turning the ball over means you control field position, even if you punt.

 

If you could run all day and get more conversions than not? It may or may not be boring. But it could be very effective towards wins.

Rex needs to hold the line on Defense to win this battle method. Or create those turnovers. Thats how he rolls. slowly it is coming around.

I strongly agree! It leaves little room for error in a game where humans make errors. You need to grab the other team by the throat when you can and bury them. Win the game in the first half if you can. I think of it like the coaches are trying to win a game of chess instead of letting the players ein the game.

Dallas yes. San Fran recently. Seattle when they had Walter Jones, Steve Hutchison and crew. That line made Shaun Alexander look like a HOF and dominated.

 

It is rare to have an oline that can dominate the entire game, every game. But, that is the exception to the original post.

If you can threaten with the pass, you have something. Defense needs to stay balanced somewhat.

 

O line just needs to be consistent not super. and add TT run to pass threat. now ya really got a conundrum Chip !

[BillnutinHouston]

Tyrod is 6-0 when the Bills pass 30 times or FEWER.

[3rdand12]

go look it up

Count me as a fan, I don't know how someone couldn't be. Doesn't mean he's better than McCoy, also doesn't mean Jackson wasn't the best since Thurman until McCoy arrived.

You prefer more passing which typically gives the opposition more offensive plays? Your point doesn't have a point. (IMO)

I was not all aboard with this move initially.

while considering this move. i am thinking Roman really does know exactly what he is doing.

I was wrong

Full on McCoy fan these days. full on. An man oh man , G Ro designs some sweet stuff for him lately.

Tyrod is 6-0 when the Bills pass 30 times or FEWER.

Yep.

Why pass when you can just go beat the snot out of the defense by pushing them around?

 

Luckily for Bills it working lately. O line is and those pass catchers are blocking up a storm.

Even Felton

[NOVABillsFan]

Tyrod is 6-0 when the Bills pass 30 times or FEWER.

I believe the actual stat is 29 times or fewer. Loss to NE game #1 he was 23 for 30, in W over Miami he was 21 for 29.

 

200 yard rushers in a Loss.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=4042

Going back to 1978, and not including 2009, a team has rushed for 200 or more yards on 1,110 occasions. 135 of those teams lost the game. So, the short answer is, about 12.2% of the time.

Is there a team that has a losing record when they rush for 130 or more?

http://iqfb.com/league-facts/rushing-for-200-yards-and-still-losing-the-game/

this is the game I remember

 

2002 – Ricky Williams – Miami Dolphins

Ricky Williams carried the ball 27 times for 228 yards and two touchdowns in a 38-21 loss to the Buffalo Bills.

Edited December 9, 2015 by NOVABillsFan

[Maddog69]

The main problems with a "Ground and Pound" or run focused offense like the Bills have are:

1.)When you get behind more 2-3 scores in a game. At that point, you need a more pass focused offense and a QB who can scan the field for open receivers. Tyrod hasn't yet proven to be consistently capable of doing this. (Not saying he won't be able to develop this ability, I just haven't seen it enough yet)

2.) The two minute drill. When you get in the last 2 minutes of a close game an need to score, you need to be able to consistently pass the ball. Just like above, Taylor hasn't yet shown the ability to do this consistently. The tempo of the offense is also an issue. They are bad at clock management and slow to get plays in and get to the line of scrimmage. That will need to improve.

[NOVABillsFan]

The main problems with a "Ground and Pound" or run focused offense like the Bills have are:

1.)When you get behind more 2-3 scores in a game. At that point, you need a more pass focused offense and a QB who can scan the field for open receivers. Tyrod hasn't yet proven to be consistently capable of doing this. (Not saying he won't be able to develop this ability, I just haven't seen it enough yet)

2.) The two minute drill. When you get in the last 2 minutes of a close game an need to score, you need to be able to consistently pass the ball. Just like above, Taylor hasn't yet shown the ability to do this consistently. The tempo of the offense is also an issue. They are bad at clock management and slow to get plays in and get to the line of scrimmage. That will need to improve.

#2 is a concern. I have not, to the best of my recollection, seen an efficient 2 minute drill being run, either at the half or at the end of the game for whatever reason.

 

What exactly is it? Coaching issues, communications issues, player execution???

Edited December 9, 2015 by NOVABillsFan

[GunnerBill]

I think one of the problems getting plays in for 2 minute drills is the size of Roman's playbook. He has a lot of plays. We have heard from multiple sources that nobody has more run plays in their play book than Greg Roman.

 

I assume they have a slimmed down list of plays they want to use inside 2 minutes - but it looks like it could do with reducing even further.

[DrDawkinstein]

I think one of the problems getting plays in for 2 minute drills is the size of Roman's playbook. He has a lot of plays. We have heard from multiple sources that nobody has more run plays in their play book than Greg Roman.

 

I assume they have a slimmed down list of plays they want to use inside 2 minutes - but it looks like it could do with reducing even further.

 

That might make sense since it's not just problems in the 2 minute drill. For example, on the deep bomb to Sammy, that was a 1st down play, and the first play of the drive. We KNEW we dialed that play up. But when they hit it, they weren't ready with a follow-up play and had to call a time out.

[BarleyNY]

Most games in the NFL are very close, so close that one or two plays usually determines the outcome of each. Unless a team is good enough to play a wide variety of offensive schemes, they have a vulnerability. The main vulnerability of the ground and pound, like the Bills run, is that it almost always relies on completing deep passes at least a few times a game with a relatively high success rate. I think we all have seen what failing to do so meant in some of the losses. It's also why the Bills took such a big chance on Harvin and gave him the contract they did. They had to have a guy like that opposite Watkins. Just look at how teams are beating the Bills now that he took a powder. The KC game is a perfect example. 1st half: safety help was consistiently late helping the CB covering Wakins (our only deep threat). 2nd half: safety lined up over Wakins with CB playing bump and run on him. Acquiring a deep threat (or two for depth) will be a priority in the offseason.

Edited December 9, 2015 by BarleyNY

[Nanker]

The hallmark of good teams is that they can win the close games.

I think 90% of NFL coaches would sign up for each of their games to be tied in the fourth quarter with two minutes to go.

The pressure is on at that point.

 

It's the fans whose guts are in a knot and their hands clenched in white-knuckled fists that are sweating the outcomes.

[Billsmovinup]

Seattle seems to have done OK with this philosophy as has Alabama in college ball. Really don't get these people who insist that the only teams that win are the ones that throw it 90 times a game. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

[hondo in seattle]

I, for one, was very worried about our OL this year. Even now, I'll say Henderson hasn't been great and Miller - when healthy - often looked like the rookie he is.

 

And yet Roman has put together a very nice running attack. In fact, despite starting an inexperienced QB, we've been putting up points.

 

There are calls and tendencies that you can question. But, overall, I think we have to be happy with Roman.

 

The offense is doing better than expected while the defense is doing worse. Let's worry about that if we worry about something.

Edited December 9, 2015 by hondo in seattle

[clearwater cadet]

Marv said, "you use the run to set up the pass.", and I believe Marv.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

It's fine when the the backs and linemen stay healthy. But the more you do it, the greater the chance of injuries to your skill players.

[26CornerBlitz]

@buffalobills

Can December "ground and pound" football get you to the playoffs? Rex has done it before: http://bufbills.co/KWQ0mF

[nonprophet]

Ground & pound It's more like shake & bake with Shady in there & i can't for the life of me figure out why they brought Felton in & paid him what they did because they sure aren't getting much if any return on the money they spent !

 

Especially in a "Ground & Pound" type scheme i don't know that the guy has been on the field for 30 plays this year has ha ??

And they're not even using him as a halfback when Karlos is injured, promoting a PS guy instead. Is he a fumble machine?