2020 Our Year For Sure Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Roman uses Clay to move safeties and linebackers around, which frees up space for Sammy and others. Clay is also used to force teams to disclose their coverage schemes pre-snap. Plus, he's a very good blocker in the running game. NONE OF THIS CAN BE SAID FOR SCOTT CHANDLER. And I do not care what the numbers say...he's vastly better than Chandler at making yards after catch. Not even comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 Clay is really good. I can't believe that this conversation has gone this way. We have one of the better TEs in the league after years of neglecting the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Clay is really good. I can't believe that this conversation has gone this way. We have one of the better TEs in the league after years of neglecting the position.i can't believe the debate is still going either. This is truly where the phrase "eye test" should prevail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) And I do not care what the numbers say...he's vastly better than Chandler at making yards after catch. Not even comparable. How do you judge YAC besides their actual Yards After Catch??? YAC/AVG (Career Numbers In Yards) from 2011-2015 Scott Chandler 4.4 4.7 5.2 4.2 2.7 Charles Clay 5.2 4.8 5.5 4.7 4.8 Scott Chandlers career avg is 4.2 and Charles Clay avg is 5. Both are well below AVG in terms of YAC and are VERY comparable. Edited February 20, 2016 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Clay is really good. I can't believe that this conversation has gone this way. We have one of the better TEs in the league after years of neglecting the position.Chandler vs gragg would be a better question. I'm interested in getting another versatile inline tight end. Might free Clay to be more hbacky on some snaps, and take advantage of that running ability. He runs with it better than he high points IMO, not surprising with his background. Agreed he's one of the better ones out there, tough to matchup with and can block. I hope we get more from him. How do you judge YAC besides their actual Yards After Catch??? YAC/AVG (Career Numbers In Yards) from 2011-2015 Scott Chandler 4.4 4.7 5.2 4.2 2.7 Charles Clay 5.2 4.8 5.5 4.7 4.8 Scott Chandlers career avg is 4.2 and Charles Clay avg is 5. Both are well below AVG in terms of YAC and are VERY comparable. I don't feel compelled to respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 This just in, Scott Chandler is still a bad football player. Despite what many here believed to be a Pro Bowl year, Chandler has looked like the same unathletic borderline #2 TE that he was here. I don't know where everyone went that was predicting a monster year from a below average player but here's Mike Reiss to tell you more: http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4787682/exploring-why-te-scott-chandler-hasnt-had-more-impact-with-patriots Mike Reiss Article: Scott Chandler and Brady didn't have as much success or as many snaps as might have been predicted from preseason success, and I have three thoughts about possible reasons: Chandler's inconsistency catching the ball, the offensive line challenges called for a better blocker than Chandler who was never signed to be a blocker or perhaps defensive matchups dictated it. Kirby Jackson: This just in, Scott Chandler is still a bad football player, but here's Mike Reiss to tell you more. Man, that is some astonishingly bad paraphrasing there. That restructuring would entail the Bills taking on an INCREDIBLE potential amount of dead for an injury prone player that has stayed healthy ONCE in his career. The way this contract was structured was a disaster and restructuring it just makes it even worse considering the dead money involved and the more important pending signings in 2017-2019 like a franchise QB, franchise CB and your franchise WR. We will need every bit of cap space possible. You don't want to restructure clay. My guess is they do want to restructure Clay and that they do it, but you're right, it's taking a massive risk and making him essentially uncuttable for the next couple of years. Roman uses Clay to move safeties and linebackers around, which frees up space for Sammy and others. Clay is also used to force teams to disclose their coverage schemes pre-snap. Plus, he's a very good blocker in the running game. NONE OF THIS CAN BE SAID FOR SCOTT CHANDLER. Except for the part about blocking, that's mostly because of Roman rather than Clay. Clay's better. The question is how much better. And at least so far, Clay underperformed his Bills contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Agree about under preforming contract but that is usually what happens when you can not develop talent from draft and need to sign free agents. it is also the risk you take putting your money into one potential top shelf players rather than trying to find middle shelf players who can perform better either with better coaching, scheme or training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Who has the pitchforks? Charles Clay huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Roman uses Clay to move safeties and linebackers around, which frees up space for Sammy and others. Clay is also used to force teams to disclose their coverage schemes pre-snap. Plus, he's a very good blocker in the running game. NONE OF THIS CAN BE SAID FOR SCOTT CHANDLER. But is Clay a venomous and dastardly red zone threat like Scott? Extra tall and lanky? Lumbering even? I think not. All this Clay fellow can do spread the field and dictate coverages He really is no Scott Chandler nor shall he ever compare. Clay is really good. I can't believe that this conversation has gone this way. We have one of the better TEs in the league after years of neglecting the position. do you even watch the games Kirby? We neglected the position for decades Chandler vs gragg would be a better question. I'm interested in getting another versatile inline tight end. Might free Clay to be more hbacky on some snaps, and take advantage of that running ability. He runs with it better than he high points IMO, not surprising with his background. Agreed he's one of the better ones out there, tough to matchup with and can block. I hope we get more from him. I don't feel compelled to respond. but ya did ^ I agree with the italicized bit 110 percent Edited February 21, 2016 by 3rdand12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Clay is really good. I can't believe that this conversation has gone this way. We have one of the better TEs in the league after years of neglecting the position.Anyone debating Chandler vs Clay is misguided. Chandler was an average TE with marginal talent. For the Bills he was a big upgrade but the Bills have upgraded again with Clay. here is the thing, think about how many times we watched Chandler get run down and tackled or fumble the ball. That will not happen to Clay. Another year in the system with Taylor should pay dividends for Clay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 But is Clay a venomous and dastardly red zone threat like Scott? Extra tall and lanky? Lumbering even? I think not. All this Clay fellow can do spread the field and dictate coverages He really is no Scott Chandler nor shall he ever compare. do you even watch the games Kirby? We neglected the position for decades but ya did ^ I agree with the italicized bit 110 percent Did I say that out loud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Chandler 2014 Stats with Bills Rec 47Yds 497Avg 10.6LNG 37TD 3 Clay 2015 stats Rec 51Yds 528Avg 10.4LNG 40TD 3 So we basically paid $5M more in 2015 for the same production. Clay has a lot to prove to me. He definitely didn't outperform Chandler this year. And don't start with the blocking. We didn't pay all that money for Clay's blocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Chandler 2014 Stats with Bills Rec 47 Yds 497 Avg 10.6 LNG 37 TD 3 Clay 2015 stats Rec 51 Yds 528 Avg 10.4 LNG 40 TD 3 So we basically paid $5M more in 2015 for the same production. Clay has a lot to prove to me. He definitely didn't outperform Chandler this year. And don't start with the blocking. We didn't pay all that money for Clay's blocking. Clay is definitely a better blocker however Clay's career is A LOT more in line with Chandler than the top tight ends in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted February 21, 2016 Author Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Clay is definitely a better blocker however Clay's career is A LOT more in line with Chandler than the top tight ends in the game. Except when Clay was a FA 3 teams (with Cleveland also interested) were wanted him at a price tag of $38M. When Chandler was a FA he didn't get a visit and came back to the Bills on a small deal. Last year he signed a FA contract smaller than the one that Lee Smith signed. People around the league do not view them as similar players. Chandler's production was a direct result of his opportunity, not his skill set. Edited February 21, 2016 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Chandler 2014 Stats with Bills Rec 47 Yds 497 Avg 10.6 LNG 37 TD 3 Clay 2015 stats Rec 51 Yds 528 Avg 10.4 LNG 40 TD 3 So we basically paid $5M more in 2015 for the same production. Clay has a lot to prove to me. He definitely didn't outperform Chandler this year. And don't start with the blocking. We didn't pay all that money for Clay's blocking. How many games do those stats represent for each player? as I recall Chandler played in 16. Clay played in what, 12 or 13? I'm admittedly never a stat person when it comes to placing a value on players. This is another obvious reason why. Take the run blocking out if you wish though it is a tremendous value. Teams needed to defend the Bills offense much differently with Clay on the field than when he wasn't. He's a mismatch and can present problems for defenses. Teams didn't care whether Chandler was there or not. In fact they preferred him to be out there so they could focus their defense elsewhere. He scares no one. I know it's harder to look deeper and easy to find stats online but it is why he is a valuable TE and Chandler isn't. Edited February 21, 2016 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Clay is the better "top shelf" TE but it remains to be seen whether value which is production / cost is better. Cost has to include cost of substitute for games he can not play. I am not claiming he is injury prone but like arguments on Percy Harvin and Goodwin value goes down when when player can not stay on field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Anybody here that doesn't expect The Bills Offense to be quite a bit better in 2016 than it was last season? Looking back at training camp and throughout the preseason they were still assembling the squad and didn't know who the hell the starters were, or even if they did, they didn't know when they would be able to actually play because of injuries and off-season surgeries. An offense takes some time to gel and Roman still hasn't installed his complete repertoire IIRC. I'm not calling for people to be patient, because that just invites the invocation of the reflexive "It's been 37 years without the playoffs and you want us to be PATIENT?" No. I'm just saying people could think a little harder about where the Offense really is. That's my opinion and you're entitled to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) How many games do those stats represent for each player? as I recall Chandler played in 16. Clay played in what, 12 or 13? I'm admittedly never a stat person when it comes to placing a value on players. This is another obvious reason why. Take the run blocking out if you wish though it is a tremendous value. Teams needed to defend the Bills offense much differently with Clay on the field than when he wasn't. He's a mismatch and can present problems for defenses. Teams didn't care whether Chandler was there or not. In fact they preferred him to be out there so they could focus their defense elsewhere. He scares no one. I know it's harder to look deeper and easy to find stats online but it is why he is a valuable TE and Chandler isn't. Clay played 13 games vs. Chandler's 16, so we could have expected Clay to produce 20% more than Chandler did in 2014. No argument that Clay gives more intangibles. I just expected more for our money. Everyone here said that he would blow away Chandler from a production standpoint. That didn't happen. As far as teams having to game plan for him, the Bills took about zero advantage of that. Edited February 22, 2016 by Freddie's Dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWATeam Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Clay played 13 games vs. Chandler's 16, so we could have expected Clay to produce 20% more than Chandler did in 2014. No argument that Clay gives more intangibles. I just expected more for our money. Everyone here said that he would blow away Chandler from a production standpoint. That didn't happen. As far as teams having to game plan for him, the Bills took about zero advantage of that. Ridiculous argument. Completely different offense's with one having Brady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Ridiculous argument. Completely different offense's with one having Brady i think you missed his argument, with chandler 2014 being orton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) Clay played 13 games vs. Chandler's 16, so we could have expected Clay to produce 20% more than Chandler did in 2014. No argument that Clay gives more intangibles. I just expected more for our money. Everyone here said that he would blow away Chandler from a production standpoint. That didn't happen. As far as teams having to game plan for him, the Bills took about zero advantage of that.how do you know they took zero advantage of that? Edited February 22, 2016 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWATeam Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 i think you missed his argument, with chandler 2014 being orton Correct, my bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) how do you know they took zero advantage of that? 8-8? Oops, there I go quoting stats again Edited February 22, 2016 by Freddie's Dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Dennis Pitta would be a great pickup for The Bills. Doubt it would happen, but I repeat myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) 8-8?And? That's how you decide whether the offense took advantage of defenses game planning against Clay? Please explain, especially because if you really think the team record adequately tells that story(?), i don't understand the full season record. at least reference the record for the games he played in. I doubt the offense was able to take advantage of the defense game planning for him in the 4 games he didn't play in. Actually, never mind. I will help you out. Just compare where the offense was with him vs without him. Last year and this year. Edited February 22, 2016 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 And? That's how you decide whether the offense took advantage of defenses game planning against Clay? Please explain, especially because if you really think the team record adequately tells that story(?), i don't understand the full season record. at least reference the record for the games he played in. I doubt the offense was able to take advantage of the defense game planning for him in the 4 games he didn't play in. Actually, never mind. I will help you out. Just compare where the offense was with him vs without him. Last year and this year. The offense was marginally better with more yards, more points, less wins due to the bad defense. The middle of the field wasn't open for business like it should have been with Clay in there. We didn't get the ball to Sammy enough, who should have been open more if they had to account for Clay. I don't see that Clay delivered $5M more in value. Maybe he will pay off better down the road after a year in the system with Tyrod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) The offense was marginally better with more yards, more points, less wins due to the bad defense. The middle of the field wasn't open for business like it should have been with Clay in there. We didn't get the ball to Sammy enough, who should have been open more if they had to account for Clay. I don't see that Clay delivered $5M more in value. Maybe he will pay off better down the road after a year in the system with Tyrod.marginally better? how do you know that the defense wasn't accounting for Clay and that the offense didn't take advantage of that? Your only answer was that Sammy should have been open more. they played in a grand total of 8 games together. You said the Bills took zero advantage of defenses game planning for Clay. Their offense was significantly better with him than without him. I still don't see a reason to support your statement. If you just don't think he was worth the money that's a totally separate thing. Edited February 22, 2016 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 marginally better? how do you know that the defense wasn't accounting for Clay and that the offense didn't take advantage of that? Your only answer was that Sammy should have been open more. they played in a grand total of 8 games together. You said the Bills took zero advantage of defenses game planning for Clay. Their offense was significantly better with him than without him. I still don't see a reason to support your statement. If you just don't think he was worth the money that's a totally separate thing. He was never going to live up to his contract. It was an impossibility due to how the Bills had to structure the deal to keep Miami from matching. Those saying he's not living up to his contract are missing the whole picture, those saying he's no better than Chandler are just trolling or should try watching the games with their eyes open. Taking a top player away from a divisional rival is a win. If that player fills a need this team has had since PM left, it's a win-win. There's no question about how valuable clay is to Roman's scheme -- unless you're not watching the games of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Did I say that out loud? some things are assumed, yet clear enough to define as valid. Whispering to the blind is like yelling to the wide eyed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Anybody here that doesn't expect The Bills Offense to be quite a bit better in 2016 than it was last season? Looking back at training camp and throughout the preseason they were still assembling the squad and didn't know who the hell the starters were, or even if they did, they didn't know when they would be able to actually play because of injuries and off-season surgeries. An offense takes some time to gel and Roman still hasn't installed his complete repertoire IIRC. I'm not calling for people to be patient, because that just invites the invocation of the reflexive "It's been 37 years without the playoffs and you want us to be PATIENT?" No. I'm just saying people could think a little harder about where the Offense really is. That's my opinion and you're entitled to it. Thank you for recognising this. I am surely entitled and rather surprised i have not been handed a much larger steaming platter of blood meats, and a vessel of Mead and barley wines. Dogs at my feet and a respected position at the fireplace within the Castle. wait. i have that. well i need more then!! Bring on the Wenches! In regard to the Offense. With out question it is Still a work in progress. and that is what i would expect from a guy ( Roman ) just over a season in with a QB in the same predicament. Make the outlook rather exciting for the offense don't you think Nanks? The offense was marginally better with more yards, more points, less wins due to the bad defense. The middle of the field wasn't open for business like it should have been with Clay in there. We didn't get the ball to Sammy enough, who should have been open more if they had to account for Clay. I don't see that Clay delivered $5M more in value. Maybe he will pay off better down the road after a year in the system with Tyrod. This is all on Tyrod's development and Roman's method i think Freddie. Would you agree? He was never going to live up to his contract. It was an impossibility due to how the Bills had to structure the deal to keep Miami from matching. Those saying he's not living up to his contract are missing the whole picture, those saying he's no better than Chandler are just trolling or should try watching the games with their eyes open. Taking a top player away from a divisional rival is a win. If that player fills a need this team has had since PM left, it's a win-win. There's no question about how valuable clay is to Roman's scheme -- unless you're not watching the games of course. D R you are speaking of Pete Metzelaars i assume? Most folks only saw what seemed a TE who missed some catches and then made some nice plays. I might guess those who understand better the opportunities in play calling that Roman was blessed to have by being able to move Clay around and keep defenses wary would understand his value to the team. Agreed that Bills chose to pry him away from Miami and that was no cheap thrill. But if he is healthy he will probably turn up to be the best TE we have had in years and years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PO16FFS Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) no where Clay and not close to Gray either, I like O'Leary's upside Of course Clay is better than Chandler. Now to say that Chandler is not even close to Gray is just wrong. Gray had a few catches. That is it. ( I to remember that game where he had a huge catch. and the fans just eat that up cuz hes still on the team ) What upside has O'Leary shown? I hope he works out, but really, how can anyone say he has good upside when hes played a total of 5 snaps all year. BTW, Moderators. In the small print it says all Chandler threads max out at 10. Time to shut this rubbish down! Edited February 22, 2016 by fredex22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 @adamschefter Patriots released WR Brandon LaFell and TE Scott Chandler, per @MikeReiss and me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 @adamschefter Patriots released WR Brandon LaFell and TE Scott Chandler, per @MikeReiss and me. So much for his HOF chances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Teams tripping over themselves to sign him IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 He could get more than Cog and Urbik... combined! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) They are clearing space for Hogan. Brady heard he's always open. And he's white, so he's another Edelman/Welker of course. Lafail never quite fit in to their pass catching corp. next year they will draft McCaffrey to really seal the deal on that offense. Edited March 2, 2016 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Teams tripping over themselves to sign him IMO He won't be short of offers one wouldn't think. If he is still out there as a "dust settle" guy would anyone be open to return? Not a perfect fit for Roman maybe but let's be honest Gragg and O'Leary (on what he has shown thus far) are borderline backup quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) He won't be short of offers one wouldn't think. If he is still out there as a "dust settle" guy would anyone be open to return? Not a perfect fit for Roman maybe but let's be honest Gragg and O'Leary (on what he has shown thus far) are borderline backup quality. i was being sarcastic actually. But I'm sure some team will sign him to the vet minimum. I am thinking the Bills wouldn't be interested, but you never know. Gragg looked ok at end of year, but you are right about the dropoff after Clay and Roman loves him some TEs. I haven't given up on oleary... He's one I'm looking forward to seeing in camp. Had a nice catch and run vs redskins. Edited March 2, 2016 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 He won't be short of offers one wouldn't think. If he is still out there as a "dust settle" guy would anyone be open to return? Not a perfect fit for Roman maybe but let's be honest Gragg and O'Leary (on what he has shown thus far) are borderline backup quality. He will likely be short on offers, honestly. He will play in the NFL this year but he will be a beggar and not a chooser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 He will likely be short on offers, honestly. He will play in the NFL this year but he will be a beggar and not a chooser he is lucky that this is a weak draft for TEs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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