PromoTheRobot Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Tony Kornheiser on PTI yesterday said "it's not like the NFL is going to vacate the Patriots Super Bowl victory" over Deflategate. That got me thinking about the whole notion of cheating. Has any team ever had a title rescinded because of cheating? Has any baseball team ever faced consequences if one or more of their players used PED's? In a nutshell: there is no downside to cheating. If you win a title, no league would have the nerve to take it away. Maybe a player of coach gets suspended or the team pays a fine or loses a draft pick, but in the end you are still champs. No asterisk, no blemish, just a title. So instead of worrying about what the Patriots get away with, why not outdo them at their own game? Edited May 7, 2015 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 The NCAA takes title away, even when they shouldn't IMO. But yes, there is never any consequence to cheating in the NfL. The Spygate scandal is proof enough. They literally stole 3 SB titles and were fined 500k, but winning those games made them way way more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalftimeAdjustment Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Here's a team that lost its title:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2459172/Spanish-basketball-team-pretended-disabled-win-Paralympic-gold-guilty-fraud.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadingpain Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Tony Kornheiser on PTI yesterday said "it's not like the NFL is going to vacate the Patriots Super Bowl victory" over Deflategate. That got me thinking about the whole notion of cheating. Has any team ever had a title rescinded because of cheating? Has any baseball team ever faced consequences if one or more of their players used PED's? In a nutshell: there is no downside to cheating. If you win a title, no league would have the nerve to take it away. Maybe a player of coach gets suspended or the team pays a fine or loses a draft pick, but in the end you are still champs. No asterisk, no blemish, just a title. So instead of worrying about what the Patriots get away with, why not outdo them at their own game? Back when the 100+ page thread was going strong about "Inflate Gate" I argued your exact point here. Cheat. Why not? If you can get away with it, go for it. I don't know of any meaningful penalty for cheating in the NFL. There are many other pro sports cheating scandals which were punished, however. The Black Sox scandal of 1919 comes to mind, which saw eight (8) players of the Chicago White Sox banned for life. I am also thinking of the Italian Serie A soccer scandal from around 2006...which saw the NY Yankees of Italian soccer (Juventus, from Torino) relegated out of Serie A, many people were fired, and anyway, that was a big deal with mega penalties. But the NFL? Cheat away! Edited May 7, 2015 by Stopthepain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchmurraydowntown Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Buffalo: The cleanest bunch of major sports losers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rochester rob Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I believe that for maybe 26 teams , if caught would be slapped down hard. For the other six it's other considerations that take precedent. So well irrelevant to cheat is a matter of whom not what Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Personally, I'd like to cheat Roger Goodell out of about six million of his salary - annually for the next ten or so years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Completely agree with the original premise. Look at the Dolphins with Suh. The tampering rules for free agency are a joke since no one follows them. Look at Rex with Collins. If all the NFL is gonna do is fine you $100k, it definitely is worth it to cheat. Almost becoming like steroids in baseball. If you're not cheating, you're a chump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seq004 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Personally, I'd like to cheat Roger Goodell out of about six million of his salary - annually for the next ten or so years. I'm with Nanker on this. I'm not one for taking away a man's way of making a living, but in this case I need to make an exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonabb Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Cheating is and always will be part of sports. People tend to focus only on the most nefarious and clandestine, like Spygate or this football issue (which I find to be mundane and its impact way overstated and am more troubled by lying and refusal to own it). But outside of these major efforts to gain an advantage, holding is cheating. It creates an unfair advantage and if caught a penalty is handed down. But it's cheating. And many times those who cheat in this manner, or pass interference, don't get caught. Often it results directly in a win for the cheater. Yet it goes away a day or so later, only carried on by the team in the short end of the outcome who cry "we got screwed" and everyone else, in the "refs can't see everything, everywhere" camp chalk it up as part of the game, rather easily accepting it. It has pissed off this town twice: No Goal and the Music City Miracle. Both clearly cheating if in fact they were illegal. Now you may say, well it's about intent. In both those case, intent is unlikely. I doubt Hull intentionally was in the crease, like his entire focus was to get in the crease and score. And the MCM was just a bad pass by a non-QB, certainly unlikely to be intentional, but again if cheating is basically the act of eluding being caught for something illegal to gain an advantage, then its cheating. I think this issue is has risen to suck meteoric levels because of who it is. If this was the Buccaneers, now one would give a crap. The Patriots are good, have been for far too long. People want to knock them down and make this into more than it is. Who cares, lets move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ko12010 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I'm with Nanker on this. I'm not one for taking away a man's way of making a living, but in this case I need to make an exception. He'd still have like 36 mil left over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Cheating is and always will be part of sports. People tend to focus only on the most nefarious and clandestine, like Spygate or this football issue (which I find to be mundane and its impact way overstated and am more troubled by lying and refusal to own it). But outside of these major efforts to gain an advantage, holding is cheating. It creates an unfair advantage and if caught a penalty is handed down. But it's cheating. And many times those who cheat in this manner, or pass interference, don't get caught. Often it results directly in a win for the cheater. Yet it goes away a day or so later, only carried on by the team in the short end of the outcome who cry "we got screwed" and everyone else, in the "refs can't see everything, everywhere" camp chalk it up as part of the game, rather easily accepting it. It has pissed off this town twice: No Goal and the Music City Miracle. Both clearly cheating if in fact they were illegal. Now you may say, well it's about intent. In both those case, intent is unlikely. I doubt Hull intentionally was in the crease, like his entire focus was to get in the crease and score. And the MCM was just a bad pass by a non-QB, certainly unlikely to be intentional, but again if cheating is basically the act of eluding being caught for something illegal to gain an advantage, then its cheating. I think this issue is has risen to suck meteoric levels because of who it is. If this was the Buccaneers, now one would give a crap. The Patriots are good, have been for far too long. People want to knock them down and make this into more than it is. Who cares, lets move on. You gloss over the question of intent, but it's critical. Cheating is intentionally doing something against the rules of the game to gain an advantage or perceived advantage. Holding, jumping across the line early, pass interference, those aren't cheating - although in some cases, like when Seattle dares the officials to call them for contact, you might be able to make a case. But you're lumping together ordinary in-game infractions with extraordinary, largely out-of-game violations, and it's not clear why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadingpain Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Cheating is and always will be part of sports. People tend to focus only on the most nefarious and clandestine, like Spygate or this football issue (which I find to be mundane and its impact way overstated and am more troubled by lying and refusal to own it). But outside of these major efforts to gain an advantage, holding is cheating. It creates an unfair advantage and if caught a penalty is handed down. But it's cheating. And many times those who cheat in this manner, or pass interference, don't get caught. Often it results directly in a win for the cheater. Yet it goes away a day or so later, only carried on by the team in the short end of the outcome who cry "we got screwed" and everyone else, in the "refs can't see everything, everywhere" camp chalk it up as part of the game, rather easily accepting it. It has pissed off this town twice: No Goal and the Music City Miracle. Both clearly cheating if in fact they were illegal. Now you may say, well it's about intent. In both those case, intent is unlikely. I doubt Hull intentionally was in the crease, like his entire focus was to get in the crease and score. And the MCM was just a bad pass by a non-QB, certainly unlikely to be intentional, but again if cheating is basically the act of eluding being caught for something illegal to gain an advantage, then its cheating. I think this issue is has risen to suck meteoric levels because of who it is. If this was the Buccaneers, now one would give a crap. The Patriots are good, have been for far too long. People want to knock them down and make this into more than it is. Who cares, lets move on. Rules infractions which are part of the game (holding) and which are the subject matter of referees ruling on the field during game play are one thing. A deliberate intent off the field to break the underlying rules of the game in a careful, pre-mediated fashion is entirely a different matter, and much more serious. I hope you see the difference, though your comments suggest you do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I said it when this came out: there was no downside. I can't think of a franchise that wouldn't trade being caught cheating for a Superbowl win. Kraft and Belichick are thrilled to have gotten away with this for just long enough. And Spygate? Who here would be upset if the Bills traded a half-million dollars and a first round draft pick for a couple years of dominance and playoff runs? The only real incentive is at the league's level, to protect the impression of the game's integrity so that it doesn't devolve into a complete farce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark80 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 The NCAA takes title away, even when they shouldn't IMO. But yes, there is never any consequence to cheating in the NfL. The Spygate scandal is proof enough. They literally stole 3 SB titles and were fined 500k, but winning those games made them way way more than that. Don't forget 11 and 12 year old boys who get their titles taken away all the time in the LLWS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I'm not sure where the rest of TBD fall on this issue, but personally, I'd rather the Bills never with a championship that cheat to get one. Why is winning a Super Bowl so important to fans that they'd cheat to do it? The Bills don't hand out any money or rings or anything to the fans. It makes no practical difference in their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 I said it when this came out: there was no downside. I can't think of a franchise that wouldn't trade being caught cheating for a Superbowl win. Kraft and Belichick are thrilled to have gotten away with this for just long enough. And Spygate? Who here would be upset if the Bills traded a half-million dollars and a first round draft pick for a couple years of dominance and playoff runs? The only real incentive is at the league's level, to protect the impression of the game's integrity so that it doesn't devolve into a complete farce. Take spygate and apply bountygate punishment to the patriots. You think they would still do it? Preferential treatment is what it came down to back then. It better not now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestojan Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 I'd take a tainted super bowl championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Take spygate and apply bountygate punishment to the patriots. You think they would still do it? Preferential treatment is what it came down to back then. It better not now. Sure they would. Hell, no punishment is going to change the fact that Belichick's a slimy egomaniac (ask his ex-wife. Or the Jets.) The only real impact this has is whether or not Brady and Belichick are first-ballot Hall-of-Famers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Tony Kornheiser on PTI yesterday said "it's not like the NFL is going to vacate the Patriots Super Bowl victory" over Deflategate. That got me thinking about the whole notion of cheating. Has any team ever had a title rescinded because of cheating? Has any baseball team ever faced consequences if one or more of their players used PED's? In a nutshell: there is no downside to cheating. If you win a title, no league would have the nerve to take it away. Maybe a player of coach gets suspended or the team pays a fine or loses a draft pick, but in the end you are still champs. No asterisk, no blemish, just a title. So instead of worrying about what the Patriots get away with, why not outdo them at their own game? The punishment also needs to fit the crime. Yes, they broke the rule. However, it's a stupid rule which should be tossed immediately. The league wants QB's to be comfortable with the balls they use in the game. They are allowed to practice with them all week, scuff them if they want, choose which ones are used in the game and the team has control of them throughout. Each team does this. I don't understand why there is a rule about PSI of the ball. If you want the QB to be most comfortable with the balls, let them be totally comfortable. I don't believe the Patriots had an unfair advantage, cheating yes, serious - no at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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