Bills to trade Kiko Alonso for LeSean McCoy

[klos63]

Yet many who are for the trade are against paying Jerry Hughes less.

I try not to think too much about the money. I don't care what they spend as long as the field a strong team. Not my money.

[3rdand12]

did you notice how often he was out of position, how often he was manhandled by blockers, how he had all his sacks, INT's , FF in the first 4 games and nothing after that. How our run defense was awful until someone replaced him.....

there we go,

He was manhandled. i addressed that. He is too small to play the MLB. But the Bills wanted him on the field and what else did we have then?

and the run defense was bad anyways.

A rookie was left on the field for what? 100% percent of the snaps? and he did get DROY votes for reason

[dezertbill]

His numbers went down because he had nearly a yard lower yards per carry average and 5-yard lower yards per reception average. Plus he fumbled far more last season than in the previous one. Quite simply, he was better in 2013 than he was in 2014, and it's not really debateable: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCoLe01.htm . He still had a pretty good season last year.

If the Bills had a 1300 yard rusher, they wouldn't be making this trade. The fact that ALL of their running backs combined last year only rushed for 64 more yards than McCoy ALONE speaks volumes. McCoy also had 5 rushing TD's in a down year compared to Buffalo's team total of 7.

 

Yeah, it's very easy to see why the Bills made this deal. That production isn't going away anytime soon.

[BuffaninATL]

The biggest change in our defense this past year personnel wise was Spikes for Kiko - our defense was significantly better this past year. Kiko was moving to a new position because he wasn't good big enough to play in the middle. Fans love him, but he is overrated. He may turn out to be very good, but McCoy is special. Love the trade

 

corrected

[Deranged Rhino]

^{Are there concerns with Kiko's knee? Didn't read the entire thread so I apologize if this was discussed earlier.}

 

Leori (resident insider) made a post that alluded to the Bills front office having concerns about the long term future of Kiko's knees. I haven't seen that officially out there, but it does make sense. Especially when keeping Kiko, eventually you'd have to choose between paying only two of the three young LBs on the roster (Bradham and Brown being the others).

 

Yet many who are for the trade are against paying Jerry Hughes less.

 

Who? I haven't seen much of that carry over, but I'm not paying attention to that.

[3rdand12]

good night folks.

Great discussion tonight!

Thanks !

[BuffaloHokie13]

Who? I haven't seen much of that carry over, but I'm not paying attention to that.

 

I mean, I'm very much for this trade and I don't think Hughes is worth 11+ mil a year

[YoloinOhio]

And no QB to throw Sammy the ball and no spread offense to make huge gaping holes for McCoy. But hey they will look good on paper and sell some jerseys

play action

 

Eagles don't really run a true spread offense. They just run a fast-paced offense.

Edited March 4, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[NoSaint]

 

Leori (resident insider) made a post that alluded to the Bills front office having concerns about the long term future of Kiko's knees. I haven't seen that officially out there, but it does make sense. Especially when keeping Kiko, eventually you'd have to choose between paying only two of the three young LBs on the roster (Bradham and Brown being the others).

 

 

Who? I haven't seen much of that carry over, but I'm not paying attention to that.

Pair that with a possibility that kiko could be unhappy with how we handled his injury.... Could be some extra layers to kiko having lower value in buff than his legend

[Wiz]

If the Bills had a 1300 yard rusher, they wouldn't be making this trade. The fact that ALL of their running backs combined last year only rushed for 64 more yards than McCoy ALONE speaks volumes. McCoy also had 5 rushing TD's in a down year compared to Buffalo's team total of 7.

 

Yeah, it's very easy to see why the Bills made this deal. That production isn't going away anytime soon.

That production will go poof behind our offensive line of 2014.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

I mean, I'm very much for this trade and I don't think Hughes is worth 11+ mil a year

 

Ah. I don't see the connection he's trying to make at all, but oh well.

 

Pair that with a possibility that kiko could be unhappy with how we handled his injury.... Could be some extra layers to kiko having lower value in buff than his legend

 

Another good point. Did we ever get an explanation about how he injured his knee last year? I remember it was never specified unless I missed it.

[klos63]

there we go,

He was manhandled. i addressed that. He is too small to play the MLB. But the Bills wanted him on the field and what else did we have then?

and the run defense was bad anyways.

A rookie was left on the field for what? 100% percent of the snaps? and he did get DROY votes for reason

results weren't there. That's what matters.

[Deranged Rhino]

That production will go poof behind our offensive line of 2014.

 

Good thing for us then it's 2015.

[klos63]

 

corrected

not necessary - he didn't do the job , that's the main issue.

[dave mcbride]

1) Whaley does not have the sort of outsized ego that would prevent him from improving his team by refusing to move a player just because it was his draft pick

2) Do you have any idea exactly how long Doug has known LeSean McCoy?

3) No matter how many times you try to put it on Rex, it will never become any truer.

 

I don't think either team "lost" the deal. They both will probably be a little better for it over the next 3-4 years and by then both guys will be held together with too much duct tape and bailing wire to be impact players. The Bills get significantly better in an area of need and only give up a LB in the middle of a deep rotation. No worries.

I don't dislike Whaley, simon, and nor do i dislike rex. I just find it hard to believe that rex isn't behind this one because alonso is an odd fit for his d. I have faith in rex as a defensive coach, but it is the case that alonso is a very good player (plus i really like kelly). Whaley did draft Alonso (in tandem with Nix), and he got a ton of praise for it. And rightly so. It's human nature to not want to give up on a player who you picked and who is that good that early.

 

There is certainly an upside for the Bills because McCoy is good, but on balance i think the Eagles got the better of the trade (on paper at least). I think Alonso is a unique player who can do a lot of things that most lbs can't, but mccoy is a quality player too. If the bills had a chance to go to the sb in the next couple of years, it's a good trade, but they don't because of the qb situation. The mccoy trade reminds me of the dickerson trade - really good rb goes to a bad team and excels, and the team goes 9-6 and 9-7 before falling off the cliff again because the qbs suck. Or AP getting the vikes to the playoffs by the skin of their teeth a couple of years ago followed by the team tanking because they don't have a qb.

 

I do think mccoy is good, and i expect him to do well for a year or two. So it's not like i see it as all bad! The qb situation remains the same, however. This is all secondary to that issue.

Edited March 4, 2015 by dave mcbride

[Fredo G.]

What does this mean for spiller, jackson, brown, and the other one?

I like Jackson Browne..

[YoloinOhio]

@hsimon62: LaDanian Tomlinson on NFL Network: said Rex will give ball to McCoy any way he can. screens, lining him up outside. lean on him in run game

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

I do think mccoy is good, and i expect him to do well for a year or two. So it's not like i see it as all bad! The qb situation remains the same, however. This is all secondary to that issue.

Someone earlier said, McCoy IS the QB fix.

Look for EJ under center, handing off to McCoy.

Hey, maybe that was Whaley's plan all along ... a way to get EJ back under center!

[YoloinOhio]

 

@threejacker: LeSean McCoy gives Rex Ryan, Buffalo Bills a brash and versatile weapon http://t.co/irEb96mwb9via @pennlive

[klos63]

I don't dislike Whaley, simon, and nor do i dislike rex. I just find it hard to believe that rex isn't behind this one because alonso is an odd fit for his d. I have faith in rex as a defensive coach, but it is the case that alonso is a very good player (plus i really like kelly). Whaley did draft Alonso (in tandem with Nix), and he got a ton of praise for it. And rightly so. It's human nature to not want to give up on a player who you picked and who is that good that early.

 

There is certainly an upside for the Bills because McCoy is good, but on balance i think the Eagles got the better of the trade (on paper at least). I think Alonso is a unique player who can do a lot of things that most lbs can't, but mccoy is a quality player too. If the bills had a chance to go to the sb in the next couple of years, it's a good trade, but they don't because of the qb situation. The mccoy trade reminds me of the dickerson trade - really good rb goes to a bad team and excels, and the team goes 9-6 and 9-7 before falling off the cliff again because the qbs suck. Or AP getting the vikes to the playoffs by the skin of their teeth a couple of years ago followed by the team tanking because they don't have a qb.

 

I do think mccoy is good, and i expect him to do well for a year or two. So it's not like i see it as all bad! The qb situation remains the same, however. This is all secondary to that issue.

what can he do that most linebackers can't do? What is unique about him? That he can't handle blockers?

[3rdand12]

results weren't there. That's what matters.

153 tackles wasnt it

[Deranged Rhino]

I don't dislike Whaley, simon, and nor do i dislike rex. I just find it hard to believe that rex isn't behind this one because alonso is an odd fit for his d. I have faith in rex as a defensive coach, but it is the case that alonso is a very good player (plus i really like kelly). Whaley did draft Alonso (in tandem with Nix), and he got a ton of praise for it. And rightly so. It's human nature to not want to give up on a player that good that early.

 

There is certainly an upside for the Bills because McCoy is good, but on balance i think the Eagles got the better of the trade (on paper at least). I think Alonso is a unique player who can do a lot of things that most lbs can't, but mccoy is a quality player too. If the bills had a chance to go to the sb in the next couple of years, it's a good trade, but they don't because of the qb situation. The mccoy trade reminds me of the dickerson trade - really good rb goes to a bad team and excels, and the team goes 9-6 and 9-7 before falling off the cliff again because the qbs suck. Or AP getting the vikes to the playoffs by the skin of their teeth a couple of years ago followed by the team tanking because they don't have a qb.

 

I do think mccoy is good, and i expect him to do well for a year or two. So it's not like i see it as all bad! The qb situation remains the same, however. This is all secondary to that issue.

 

In the end you may well end up being correct about how the trade plays out. And if the Bills don't find an answer at QB in the next two years their window will absolutely start to close. I just think it's possible that the QB situation will change very, very quickly. Not necessarily this off season (baring a trade), but I think there are stronger possibilities down the line to get a vet who's looking for a ring -- possibly as soon as next year '16 (Rivers anyone?). This defense, with Ryan and now Shady and two full off seasons to fix/develop the line -- that'd be hard for a vet hungry for a championship to pass up if one happens to make it to FA.

[klos63]

153 tackles wasnt it

and one of the worst run defenses in the league. It's where you make the tackles, not how many. We didn't really miss him too much, did we? In fact, defense was dominant most of last year, piss poor against the run the year before.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

That he tore his ACL twice and came back to play again at some level, oh yeah, he became DPOY, he'll become a superstar, he's up and coming (even though his played actually tailed off in the ONE season he played).

 

Well at least that's what the first 37 pages were saying about him

what can he do that most linebackers can't do? What is unique about him? That he can't handle blockers?

[dave mcbride]

what can he do that most linebackers can't do? What is unique about him? That he can't handle blockers?

He is FANTASTIC in coverage - nearly as good as a solid safety. He had four picks and a bunch of passes defensed in his rookie season - very high numbers for a LB. He also has fantastic instincts. There's a reason he was third in the league in tackles in 2013 - he got to plays early. He has weaknesses in his game (he's not a thumper) but as an instinctive run and chase lb who can cover, there are few better.

 

Chip Kelly is a smart guy, so I'd factor that in as well.

In the end you may well end up being correct about how the trade plays out. And if the Bills don't find an answer at QB in the next two years their window will absolutely start to close. I just think it's possible that the QB situation will change very, very quickly. Not necessarily this off season (baring a trade), but I think there are stronger possibilities down the line to get a vet who's looking for a ring -- possibly as soon as next year '16 (Rivers anyone?). This defense, with Ryan and now Shady and two full off seasons to fix/develop the line -- that'd be hard for a vet hungry for a championship to pass up if one happens to make it to FA.

Hope you're right! I'm starting to think that the bills may pick a qb with either their 2 or 3 pick.

[3rdand12]

and one of the worst run defenses in the league. It's where you make the tackles, not how many. We didn't really miss him too much, did we? In fact, defense was dominant most of last year, piss poor against the run the year before.

recall what we said about London Fletcher. and new DC right ?

[KOKBILLS]

did you notice how often he was out of position, how often he was manhandled by blockers, how he had all his sacks, INT's , FF in the first 4 games and nothing after that. How our run defense was awful until someone replaced him.....

 

I'm an admitted Kiko fanboi...But I also admit I'm probably a bigger fan of the Legend stuff than I was the actual player...And I love the kid...But that was a blast...

 

I basically agree with your assessment on Kiko, and like I said in a previous post...2 major knee injuries in 5 years...Unquestionably Kiko is talented, and he may very well go on to have a fantastic career...But I see this trade as the classic "You have to give up something good to get something good.."

 

And make no mistake folks...Like it, or don't like it, there is no way in hell Rex Ryan OK's this trade if he felt Kiko would turn into the next Luke Keuchly...There's just no way...Rex loves Defense and there's no way he ever feels he has enough good players at any position...I'm guessing Rex, like most anyone, likes Kiko...But I doubt he feels he's a potential super-star ILB based on this trade...And furthermore Kiko would seemingly be a nice fit as a 3-4 ILB...I just don't see this trade going down without Rex giving it a BIG thumbs up...It's too early in Rex's stay for Whaley to go out there and do anything like this without the new HC signing off on it...

 

So anyway...Kiko's legend is certainly greater than his accomplishments so-far in his career...And if Bills fans hate this and are looking for someone to blame I'm guessing that guy is as much Rex Ryan as anybody...

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

To build of the legend of Kiko

 

Chip Kelly is making this trade as he plans to make Kiko his starting QB

[klos63]

That he tore his ACL twice and came back to play again at some level, oh yeah, he became DPOY, he'll become a superstar, he's up and coming (even though his played actually tailed off in the ONE season he played).

 

Well at least that's what the first 37 pages were saying about him

DPOY - Defensive player of the year? In what universe was that? Yes, we agree his play tailed off, that's a negative, not a positive. And he hasn't come back from his 2nd ACL tear , yet. Got anything else?

[dubs]

Kiko Alonso- 24 Potential super star, NFL DPOY candidate as soon as this season.

 

LeSean McCOy- 27, on the downside of his career, $12 million cap hit

Almost none of this is true except the cap hit

 

2014 - McCoy: 1500 all purpose yards and 5 TDs

Alonso: 0 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 ints, 0 forced fumbles, 0 fumble recoveries, 0 tackles for a loss.

[dave mcbride]

and one of the worst run defenses in the league. It's where you make the tackles, not how many. We didn't really miss him too much, did we? In fact, defense was dominant most of last year, piss poor against the run the year before.

I've brought this up elsewhere, but the bills were second in the nfl in yards per drive and 5th in the nfl in plays per drive in 2013. A lot of their down numbers were an effect of the horrible offense, which was 31st in time per drive and 28th in yards per drive. Football outsiders ranked the bills d fourth overall using their dvoa method for 2013. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2013 Edited March 4, 2015 by dave mcbride

[BuffaloFan68]

I would have been on board with this trade if it included CJ Spiller & Foles too.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Ummm... yeah that was the idea, all my comments were meant to be negatives. I'm agreeing with you, he was nothing special.

 

It was on about page two or three of the this thread, someone posted that! DPOY candidate this season The legend is amazing.

 

See my post above as to the real reason behind this trade!!

DPOY - Defensive player of the year? In what universe was that? Yes, we agree his play tailed off, that's a negative, not a positive. And he hasn't come back from his 2nd ACL tear , yet. Got anything else?

[BuffaloFan68]

Kiko was our answer to Gronk. Now what?

[dave mcbride]

Ummm... yeah that was the idea, all my comments were meant to be negatives. I'm agreeing with you, he was nothing special.

 

It was on about page two or three of the this thread, someone posted that! DPOY candidate this season The legend is amazing.

 

See my post above as to the real reason behind this trade!!

This is going too far! He was a great rookie. He finished second in droy voting for a reason, and the bills d was light years better in 2013 than it was in 2012. He wasn't perfect, but who is?

[KOKBILLS]

Hope you're right! I'm starting to think that the bills may pick a qb with either their 2 or 3 pick.

 

Well...No question RB is no longer an option early...

[Johnny Hammersticks]

He is FANTASTIC in coverage - nearly as good as a solid safety. He had four picks and a bunch of passes defensed in his rookie season - very high numbers for a LB. He also has fantastic instincts. There's a reason he was third in the league in tackles in 2013 - he got to plays early. He has weaknesses in his game (he's not a thumper) but as an instinctive run and chase lb who can cover, there are few better.

Chip Kelly is a smart guy, so I'd factor that in as well.

^^ This

 

Anyone on here trying to down-play Kiko's pure instinctual football talent is insane and/or ignorant. The guy is a football player. An exceptional linebacker. The guy always seems to be around the ball, and has a knack for making plays. That said, he does have his shortcomings. While a sure tackler, he sometimes get overpowered by bigger backs/blockers. Also...two ACL injuries on the same leg? Complete knee ligament reconstruction? Let's say I had my worries about his longevity.

 

I think good trade, overall.

[klos63]

I've brought this up elsewhere, but the bills were second in the nfl in yards per drive and 5th in the nfl in plays per drive in 2013. A lot of their down numbers were an effect of the horrible offense, which was 31st in time per drive and 28th in yards per drive. Football outsiders ranked the bills d fourth overall using their dvoa method for 2013. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2013

I think our offense was worse in 2014 than 2013, our defense was much better in 2014. Still can't blame all the run game shortcomings on the offense. I don't dislike Kiko, just didn't get into the infatuation that many did. It kind of blinds people to the reality.

[Deranged Rhino]

Chip Kelly is a smart guy, so I'd factor that in as well.

 

Hope you're right! I'm starting to think that the bills may pick a qb with either their 2 or 3 pick.

 

 

I really like Kelly too, and agree he's smart. He also once said (before he was in the NFL I think) something along the lines of (paraphrasing because I don't remember where I heard it -- I think it was during a game by the color commentator): if he were in charge of an NFL roster he'd only draft defensive players because he's so confident in his abilities to make average offensive players great that he wouldn't need to waste resources on that side of the ball. That might not be true, but his ego is something to consider.

[klos63]

Ummm... yeah that was the idea, all my comments were meant to be negatives. I'm agreeing with you, he was nothing special.

 

It was on about page two or three of the this thread, someone posted that! DPOY candidate this season The legend is amazing.

 

See my post above as to the real reason behind this trade!!

Sorry, it's been a long day. Lot's of posts.