Rex Ryan completely understands offenses

[Kelly the Dog]

I'm starting this to open a debate because I don't know the answer. If you are known as the best defensive mind in the game, don't you almost by definition have to completely understand offenses, what they do good and bad, how they do it, and then figure out how to stop them?

 

Perhaps not. Perhaps Buddy Ryan was so arrogant that he thought this pressure will stop you no matter what you do and we don't even care what it is, we will win in the long run and Rex carried that through.

 

It does appear, however, that Rex plays different defenses against different teams, so it goes to the theory that he does study and understand offenses.

 

Of course, this leads to the subtopic of why weren't his any good in NJ if he knew so much. He surely was not given the players to be good. His QBs were terrible. If anything he made more out of Sanchez than expected. The RB besides Ivory the last four years were terrible. The WR were terrible including Decker. The TE were pedestrian. The good linemen have been there over five years. So unless he was picking them, and word is he wasn't, that really isn't his fault.

 

I'm curious to,know what people think about the core thesis though. Do you have to completely understand offenses to be the best or the very top defensive mind. And if so, wouldn't this logically help you coaching your offense. Rex said his pride and joy is offensive line. The Jets at least have a good line for the most part.

 

Likewise, to be a great offensive mind, you would naturally have to completely understand defenses and how they work and what they can and cannot do.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

oh come on now !!! You just ruined it for everyone!!!

 

 

sheesh stating the obvious .....

[Fadingpain]

Yes, you have to understand O to stop it on D. You also have to understand D to defeat with your O.

 

All of these guys at this level know a TON about the Xs and Os of the game of football, on both sides of the ball.

 

I don't know nearly enough about the tactics of football to give you a great example, but I would imagine the perfectly drawn up offensive play is perfect b/c it doesn't matter what the D does on it...the O will have a high chance to succeed.

 

This is the underlying principle of chess. Eventually, I work your king into a metaphorical corner and it doesn't matter if you pursue strategy 1, 2, or 3....I will get your king under all three approaches. That's check mate and when the game ends.

 

I would imagine Rex is constantly thinking offensively and defensively, all at the same time, as part of a whole.

 

In short, he is thinking "football" not O or D.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Good topic.

 

I recall when greggo came here that he hired an

OC to run a west coast offense because he said as a DC, the WCO was the toughest one for him to defend.

 

That always struck me as interesting. On one hand, it made me think that he knew offenses. On the other hand, in hindsight, I wonder if he was shoehorning us into a scheme without consideration of personnel.

[hondo in seattle]

Kelly, I think you're right. I think that good OCs understand defenses very well and good DCs understand offenses very well.

 

So why did Rex fail on offense? Here's my best guess:

 

(1) He gave his OCs almost complete autonomy. He appreciated having autonomy when he was a DC and felt he owed the same to his OC.

 

(2) Tannebaum and Idzik didn't acquire a lot of talent for the offense (or for the team in general) as you noted.

 

(3) Rex has a passion for defense. Supposedly he has a notepad next to his bed and as new defensive ideas come to him, he writes them down. He doesn't have that same enthusiasm for offense.

[Wooderson]

As a professional coach, I think there's only so much time you can pour into each week. His emphasis is obviously on defense, which is why he needed to hire a quality offensive coordinator. There's just not enough time in the day/week/season to focus more time on the other side of the ball.

 

Defensive coaching is also a lot about finding tendencies and playing percentages, as well as the Xs and Os.

 

Coaches that can see their own tendencies and find different ways to break them are usually successful.

[eSJayDee]

I don't really think you do need to truly "understand" offenses to effectively defend them. I'll use the analogy of curing an illness. To "cure" an illness, all you need to do is identify the symptoms and alleviate them; you don't need to know the underlying cause. To defend well, you merely need to identify what an offense is going to do & counteract it; you needn't know how, or why they're doing it.

Same holds true for offenses - you merely need to diagnose what a Dee is going to do & device ways to attack it; you don't need to know how or why they're doing it.

[Peter]

Exactly.

 

One cannot have an elite defensive mind without understanding offense.

[billsfan1959]

This is a good topic. I think there are coaches on both sides of the ball that are just at a different level when it comes to understanding offensive or defensive Xs and Os at a nuanced level. On offense, someone like Bill Walsh comes to mind and on defense, someone like Buddy Ryan comes to mind. I think Rex Ryan is in that category. His volume of work on the defensive side of the ball speaks for itself.

 

I do think that, inherent in coaches at that level, is a nuanced understanding of the other side of the ball. Unfortunately, I believe what happens, as a HC, is that these types of individuals tend to want to devote their energies to their respective side of the ball and don't really have the time to devote to the other side of the ball - instead, leaving it to the coordinator. Ryan is one of those and tends to give almost complete autonomy to the OC and his staff. I think there are a number of variables that went into the problems Ryan's teams experienced on offense, and, certainly, Ryan deserves some of the blame.

 

In the end, I believe Ryan will take the same approach in Buffalo. So, regardless of whether or not Rex understands the nuances of offensive Xs and Os, the success of the offense is going to depend on Greg Roman''s abilities and the personnel - particularly the offensive line.

[Grimace]

It's a matter of "why" vs. "how". To defend something you need to know why it works and know how to defend it, not how to do it.

 

A baseball hitter can watch a lot of tape on a pitcher to know why they are effective and how to hit them, but they don't need to know how to pitch.

[Webster Guy]

i always thought Rex's offense seemed to be very well prepared for us, and the gameplans were solid.

 

A lot of underneath stuff, tight ends finding seams, good mix of run/pass.

 

Geno/vick experiment was obviously a mess, but blame the gm for that.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

This whole discussion is interesting too because there are so many cases where very successful coordinators fail as head coaches.

 

The league is littered with them.

 

It seems most head coaches spend their entire career in one side of the ball or the other and only once they ascend to the very highest level of the profession, are they plugged into the other side of the ball.

[Fadingpain]

Late in the morning of June 6, 1944, Erwin Rommel got in his staff car in his home town in western Germany, and asked the driver to get him near Normandy as fast as possible. He had just caught wind of the allied landings there.

 

Rommel had been home for his wife's birthday on this critical day, and Rommel (along with Gerd von Rundstedt) was in charge of German defenses along the Atlantic Wall.

 

As the staff car drove for hours heading into France, Rommel sat in silence. His chief of staff, Lang, did not want to bother him, as Rommel was lost in concentration.

 

Upon arrival in France hours later, Rommel declared "Do you know what, Lang? If I was commander of the Allied forces right now, I could finish off this war in fourteen days."

 

It became apparent to Lang that for a period of many hours, Rommel had been fighting the war in his head, like a chess master. He was thinking multiple moves ahead, calculating what he would do to defend, what the Allies should do to counter-act, how Rommel would have to respond to that, and so on...and concluded that if he was in charge of the allied invasion of Normandy, he could end the war in a fortnight's time.

 

You can't understand defense without understanding offense, and vice versa.

 

This is obvious.

 

(As a total aside and having nothing to do with this thread), it is interesting to note that Rommel's 14 days to war's end turned into Eisenhower's ELEVEN MONTHS.

[Grimace]

This whole discussion is interesting too because there are so many cases where very successful coordinators fail as head coaches.

Offense vs defense understanding might be part of this, but a simpler explanation is the Peter principle. A head coach needs to manage and delegate more than an a coordinator.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

[RealityCheck]

I don't really think you do need to truly "understand" offenses to effectively defend them. I'll use the analogy of curing an illness. To "cure" an illness, all you need to do is identify the symptoms and alleviate them; you don't need to know the underlying cause. To defend well, you merely need to identify what an offense is going to do & counteract it; you needn't know how, or why they're doing it.

Same holds true for offenses - you merely need to diagnose what a Dee is going to do & device ways to attack it; you don't need to know how or why they're doing it.

The problem with analogies is that you just stopped talking about football, and now I am not sure that I agree with your definition of curing an illness.

[Deranged Rhino]

(As a total aside and having nothing to do with this thread), it is interesting to note that Rommel's 14 days to war's end turned into Eisenhower's ELEVEN MONTHS.

 

Could it be because one was imagined and one was done in reality?

[atlbillsfan1975]

 

Could it be because one was imagined and one was done in reality?

oh come on! i was enjoying the history lesson.

 

I think Rex is intelligent enough to learn from his past. I do think he has a complete staff that will all have the same agenda and goals.

Rex needs to know what he is not great at and hire someone who is to help with that.

[Mojo44]

My biggest concern about Ryan is that he doesn't have a sufficient skill set to be a head coach. Specifically he has a reputation of being disorganized. Sure he must know something about offense because he specialty is D. But this doesn't necessarily mean he really gets how offenses work in any deep sense. Even his public statements suggests, to me, he doesn't care about the offense on his own team to even be involved sufficiently as a HC should be. A HC needs to be a control freak by definition of the job. He's responsible, ultimately, for the product on the field. I don't feel like I need to be able to have a beer with the Bills HC. I don't care if he comes across surly or boring. He needs to be a control freak and disciplinarian. Rex has a lot to learn about being a HC still. A 4-12 record on a downward trending team is not a good recent history. That's Rex's record, not the GM......I'm hopeful he can make that change and time will tell.

[eball]

Hey, Doug's back!

[Best Player Available]

My biggest concern about Ryan is that he doesn't have a sufficient skill set to be a head coach. Specifically he has a reputation of being disorganized. Sure he must know something about offense because he specialty is D. But this doesn't necessarily mean he really gets how offenses work in any deep sense. Even his public statements suggests, to me, he doesn't care about the offense on his own team to even be involved sufficiently as a HC should be. A HC needs to be a control freak by definition of the job. He's responsible, ultimately, for the product on the field. I don't feel like I need to be able to have a beer with the Bills HC. I don't care if he comes across surly or boring. He needs to be a control freak and disciplinarian. Rex has a lot to learn about being a HC still. A 4-12 record on a downward trending team is not a good recent history. That's Rex's record, not the GM......I'm hopeful he can make that change and time will tell.

pretty sad understanding of a GM/ Coach relationship. Well, in honesty the above is pretty much all dribble. Please continue though.It is fascinating...................