thewildrabbit Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I never said it was shocking he slid. I'm shocked he didn't care enough to try. Trent Edwards did that **** too. How bout we talk about his 2 redzone picks the last few games or maybe when he starred down his 6'7" TE and threw it right to the defender. Perhaps his back up into a sack That game was never close. Orton threw for a bunch of yards against a prevent defense. He is responsible for awful performances against Miami and KC that directly lost us the season. He is also a wuss, plays for himself and couldn't be bothered to sweat it out with his teammates in August after quitting his last team to force a release. I want nothing to do with him. The game was close enough that a good onside kick, then 40 yards and a TD when the Bills offense is actually scoring TD's in the red zone, and its a tie game. I'd call that pretty close! The offense has been bad the last year with other QB's who all regressed under the current OC. Strange that 2nd year QB's all should deteriorate so profoundly, and so quickly. That is what we call the Can't Hackett effect! I'll bet that if you asked his teammates if they wanted him as the starter it would be a resounding yes! Orton can't make up for a lack of run game like the one helping Fitz win games in Houston, and he can't make up for the bad O line like the one that is helping Tony Romo. Orton certainly can't make up for the bad coaching like the one that is 9-4 in Philly with Mr Butt Fumble starting or the one that is 11-3 with some complete scrubs at QB. I have to think that both Bruce Arians, and Chip Kelly would love them some Kyle Orton right about now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 The game was close enough that a good onside kick, then 40 yards and a TD when the Bills offense is actually scoring TD's in the red zone, and its a tie game. I'd call that pretty close! The offense has been bad the last year with other QB's who all regressed under the current OC. Strange that 2nd year QB's all should deteriorate so profoundly, and so quickly. That is what we call the Can't Hackett effect! I'll bet that if you asked his teammates if they wanted him as the starter it would be a resounding yes! Orton can't make up for a lack of run game like the one helping Fitz win games in Houston, and he can't make up for the bad O line like the one that is helping Tony Romo. Orton certainly can't make up for the bad coaching like the one that is 9-4 in Philly with Mr Butt Fumble starting or the one that is 11-3 with some complete scrubs at QB. I have to think that both Bruce Arians, and Chip Kelly would love them some Kyle Orton right about now. I am not absolving Hackett of anything, but I would probably place any blame of how the QBs regressed this year on the new QB coach who was not here last year. That is similar to what happened to Fitz when they brought in a QB coach. Its just more voices in one's hear to have to process during game day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 So because he's better than bad QBs that means he's worth having. Noted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 You are such an Orton apologist. He scored points against one terrible team. We average 17 in every other game he has started. That's below average. And he's a 9th year player. Hackett's offense is not that complicated. Is he had a worse advantage that EJ was at as a rookie - missed half if training camp and a month of the season? Orton just isn't a starter. It's been proven for 9 years. Jim Plunkett wasn't a starter. It had been proven for 8 years. Then he led the Raiders to a Super Bowl victory. Some guys get better with age. Some guys finally shine when they get in a system that makes use of their talents and covers up their shortcomings. I don't know if Orton is one of those guys. But right now he's 17th in passer efficiency rating (amongst QBs with at least 100 attempts). At 262 ypg, his productivity is 14th. He's productivity and efficiency statistics are profoundly average for a NFL starter. Orton is what a typical NFL starter looks like. And his stats are earned despite working for an OC who going through an on-the-job learning program. And despite a deficient OL that can't open up running lanes. Like anyone, I would prefer Payton Manning to be the QB of the team. Or I'd love for Whaley to find the 'next Jim Kelly." But Orton isn't bad. He's merely mediocre. Maybe next year with better guards and a smarter OC, he'll be better than mediocre. I don't know how anyone can know. To quote Socrates, "The only true wisdom is knowing you know nothing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Orton = Fitz.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Jim Plunkett wasn't a starter. It had been proven for 8 years. Then he led the Raiders to a Super Bowl victory. Some guys get better with age. Some guys finally shine when they get in a system that makes use of their talents and covers up their shortcomings. I don't know if Orton is one of those guys. But right now he's 17th in passer efficiency rating (amongst QBs with at least 100 attempts). At 262 ypg, his productivity is 14th. He's productivity and efficiency statistics are profoundly average for a NFL starter. Orton is what a typical NFL starter looks like. And his stats are earned despite working for an OC who going through an on-the-job learning program. And despite a deficient OL that can't open up running lanes. Like anyone, I would prefer Payton Manning to be the QB of the team. Or I'd love for Whaley to find the 'next Jim Kelly." But Orton isn't bad. He's merely mediocre. Maybe next year with better guards and a smarter OC, he'll be better than mediocre. I don't know how anyone can know. To quote Socrates, "The only true wisdom is knowing you know nothing." Orton is aging like milk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC2002 Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I never said it was shocking he slid. I'm shocked he didn't care enough to try. Trent Edwards did that **** too. How bout we talk about his 2 redzone picks the last few games or maybe when he starred down his 6'7" TE and threw it right to the defender. Perhaps his back up into a sack That game was never close. Orton threw for a bunch of yards against a prevent defense. He is responsible for awful performances against Miami and KC that directly lost us the season. He is also a wuss, plays for himself and couldn't be bothered to sweat it out with his teammates in August after quitting his last team to force a release. I want nothing to do with him. as I said irrational expectations based on nothing . How about we talk about the fact that the past two games we have exactly two rushes inside the redzone . Orton has one and scored and Fred has the other one . How about we run the ball so as not telegraph the play every single time . In the redzone there is only a certain amount of plays and routes that can be run the game wasnt close ? So he slide in a game that wasn't close but you are all torn up about it ? It was Orton that fumbled out the endzone taking away what wouldve been a 17-3 pt lead against KC . Were we not ahead that game heading into the 4th quarter ? Orton is directly responsible for that loss and the one against Miami . Its not even worth pointing it out . What does what he did prior to coming here matter ? Plays for himself ? How is he doing that exactly ? Again irrational hate fueled by irrational expectations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Orton sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I am not absolving Hackett of anything, but I would probably place any blame of how the QBs regressed this year on the new QB coach who was not here last year. That is similar to what happened to Fitz when they brought in a QB coach. Its just more voices in one's hear to have to process during game day. From what we can gather after EJ spoke to the media not long ago, he is learning quite a bit from watching Orton in the film room, as he directs what plays he wants to run during the upcoming game. He is learning the line protections, learning to read the defenses, and watches Orton on how he changes the play or switches up the primary target. After having read that I'm 100% positive that Hackett is basically worthless to the younger QB's in just about every aspect, and almost equally worthless to Orton. Nobody is saying Kyle Orton is great, and what some of us are trying to relay is that he is nothing more then an average. But, he is being held back by someone who knows less then he does about NFL play calling. Orton would benefit greatly by having someone like ex Colts OC Tom Moore guiding him. He would benefit greatly with a better line, and actual run game that worked to get first downs when needed. But then, so would EJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Orton sucks Deep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 (edited) as I said irrational expectations based on nothing . How about we talk about the fact that the past two games we have exactly two rushes inside the redzone . Orton has one and scored and Fred has the other one . How about we run the ball so as not telegraph the play every single time . In the redzone there is only a certain amount of plays and routes that can be run the game wasnt close ? So he slide in a game that wasn't close but you are all torn up about it ? It was Orton that fumbled out the endzone taking away what wouldve been a 17-3 pt lead against KC . Were we not ahead that game heading into the 4th quarter ? Orton is directly responsible for that loss and the one against Miami . Its not even worth pointing it out . What does what he did prior to coming here matter ? Plays for himself ? How is he doing that exactly ? Again irrational hate fueled by irrational expectations Clearly we are not going to agree and thats fine. I have seen enough of this guy in his career to know he is a "me" guy Just a few examples http://nesn.com/2011...oard-in-denver/ Fining Tim Tebow after fans put up a billboard asking for him to be benched http://www.foxsports...ith-romo-100114 Didn't get along with Romo or staff in Dallas http://www.cbssports...475988/31400328 "Don't talk to me about Tebow" http://www.denverpos...ping-not-repeat "This has been the Orton way for much of his career. He signs. He eventually starts. He leaves on bad terms. Rinse and repeat." I'd be willing to bet he plays this game back and forth in the offseason, leaves the FO out to dry then takes his money and retires until next August when a team comes calling. Why people continue to defend him is beyond me. His history is well documented as a mediocre QB with a bad attitude Edited December 13, 2014 by Captain Hindsight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I agree with you. Some on this board don't appreciate the fact that an average player has value. Yeah! In baseball it's known as an inning eater as opposed to winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 So because he's better than bad QBs that means he's worth having. Noted I don't think that's what the OP is saying. His point is it could be much worse. And he's right. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 can't get much worse than Orton's 27th ranking by total QBR. well, actually you can, EJ is ranked 33rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimer1960 Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 can't get much worse than Orton's 27th ranking by total QBR. well, actually you can, EJ is ranked 33rd. But EJ didn't get 2 games against the Jets to pad his stats... Look, I am not saying that Manuel should be starting, just that if you take Orton's two games against the Jets out of the picture, he has been less than mediocre. No question that there are other problems around him including losing Jackson and Spiller, poor OG play and inexperienced WRs, but given how well the D has played and the good field position that they've provided the offense with, you'd expect an average NFL QB to score more points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffwagonscircled Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 (edited) I can't wait if Orton has a good game tomorrow to see everyone say he's our guy and we can build around him and then if he plays horrible against Oakland or New England about how he's not the answer. Edited December 13, 2014 by Buffwagonscircled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 the game wasnt close ? So he slide in a game that wasn't close but you are all torn up about it ? Lost by 7. Keep making excuses for Orton's failures. Were you a Fitz apologist too ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 We need more intelligence on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSOL Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I can't wait if Orton has a good game tomorrow to see everyone say he's our guy and we can build around him and then if he plays horrible against Oakland or New England about how he's not the answer. Dont hold your breath waiting for that to happen, wait, on second thought, maybe you should Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Orton ranked 27 TQBR. http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC2002 Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Lost by 7. Keep making excuses for Orton's failures. Were you a Fitz apologist too ? Im not maybe you should try some reading comprehension . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Its so nice to read some good common sense from Bills fans. Now, just think if the team had some decent OG's, and built a good run game to take some heat off the bills QB so he isn't throwing it 40+ times a game. With a balanced offense that could actually run the ball to make first down the Bills and a top 10 offense they would be contending for the super bowl with that #5 defense. Ladies & Gentleman we have a winner of the weekly lottery but he could have won the mega ball if his answer would have included changing out the OC . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC2002 Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 But EJ didn't get 2 games against the Jets to pad his stats... Look, I am not saying that Manuel should be starting, just that if you take Orton's two games against the Jets out of the picture, he has been less than mediocre. No question that there are other problems around him including losing Jackson and Spiller, poor OG play and inexperienced WRs, but given how well the D has played and the good field position that they've provided the offense with, you'd expect an average NFL QB to score more points. Why ? we were not a high scoring team to begin with . How do you name all those issues and expect more points ? I have no problem saying that we blew some opportunities and that Orton himself blew several but the offense has to pretty much play perfect and it just hadn't been able to do it . Is Orton to blame for a fumble in the endzone that puts up 2 scores ? the defensive penalty that puts the opponent inside the 10 in a 12-9 game ? The offense is a work in progress you say we should be to get more points but How ? Mike Williams has more tds in his career(26) than all of our other receivers have combined in their careers and we didnt play the guy . FJ has a 1 TD lead over Orton for the team lead in rushing tds . Looking back on this season so far we have missed opportunities in the passing game but I think Marrone is probably not sleeping at night because of the collapse of the running game . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 We need more intelligence on this board. this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Orton is worth keeping as a ok backup if the price is fair. If he wants more then $6m a year to stay, he better look good these last 3 games. Finding a good QB is like playing the lottery, Brady for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Im not maybe you should try some reading comprehension . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimer1960 Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Why ? we were not a high scoring team to begin with . How do you name all those issues and expect more points ? I have no problem saying that we blew some opportunities and that Orton himself blew several but the offense has to pretty much play perfect and it just hadn't been able to do it . Is Orton to blame for a fumble in the endzone that puts up 2 scores ? the defensive penalty that puts the opponent inside the 10 in a 12-9 game ? The offense is a work in progress you say we should be to get more points but How ? Mike Williams has more tds in his career(26) than all of our other receivers have combined in their careers and we didnt play the guy . FJ has a 1 TD lead over Orton for the team lead in rushing tds . Looking back on this season so far we have missed opportunities in the passing game but I think Marrone is probably not sleeping at night because of the collapse of the running game . I was comparing the scoring output with Orton at QB to the scoring when Manuel was the QB. Two Jets games aside, I don't see much (in terms of scoring) that suggests that Orton is any better than Manuel. No doubt, Orton is throwing for more yards, but that isn't helping scoring much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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