$15 Minimum Wage Battle Moves To Other Industries

[Chef Jim]

 

 

Like raising taxes on smokes?

 

Which created a black market for smokes and the raised minimum wage will most likely create a black market for employment which of course already exists today.

[DC Tom]

Which created a black market for smokes and the raised minimum wage will most likely create a black market for employment which of course already exists today.

 

And just like the ACA is creating a black market for medicine...

 

...well, not really, not yet. But I'm sure that, given that it inhibits the government's ability to regulate medical practices and health care usage and "control costs", I'm sure "direct-to-doctor" payment arrangements outside of approved health insurance polices, like I have with my doctor, will be considered "black market" medical practices within five years or so.

[TakeYouToTasker]

Which created a black market for smokes and the raised minimum wage will most likely create a black market for employment which of course already exists today.

Additionally, I'd be interested on seeing numbers on how percentage of the illegal cigarette trade is being thwarted by police action in NYC and how that translates to tax dollars saved vs. how much is being spent on the police actions.

[Tiberius]

Additionally, I'd be interested on seeing numbers on how percentage of the illegal cigarette trade is being thwarted by police action in NYC and how that translates to tax dollars saved vs. how much is being spent on the police actions.

Vs the public health benefits of reduced smoking

[TH3]

“By eliminating those jobs, you would be eliminating the experience that a first job provides and teaching a work ethic.”

Why would jobs be eliminated? Has this happened in states where the MW has been raised significantly? Have businesses closed?

“If the MW goes up, won't all payroll taxes also increase?

 

So the big winner in this entire discussion is the government.”

Wouldn’t a big winner in this case be our children as the deficit would get reduced?

I think a big aspect not talked about is the earned income tax credit. The US taxpayer is essentially supplementing a large portion of MW workers by giving them money for working at MW jobs – so in essence – the economy is already supporting a higher MW just in a very convoluted way – and in essence giving companies like Walmart a huge subsidy.

[IDBillzFan]

Vs the public health benefits of reduced smoking

 

Yeah, we've seen the health benefits of high taxes on cigarettes. His name was Eric Garner.

[TakeYouToTasker]

And just like the ACA is creating a black market for medicine...

 

...well, not really, not yet. But I'm sure that, given that it inhibits the government's ability to regulate medical practices and health care usage and "control costs", I'm sure "direct-to-doctor" payment arrangements outside of approved health insurance polices, like I have with my doctor, will be considered "black market" medical practices within five years or so.

Of course they will. Those sorts of markets have already emerged in every country with government care.

 

Vs the public health benefits of reduced smoking

Non-sequitor.

 

I made no comment regarding the level of taxation. I'm not a NYC resident, so I really don't care what the local government there does.

 

The comment that I made was that I'd be interested in seeing ROI's on combating illegal cigarette sales. My hunch is that they're spending more on enforcment than they're saving.

[Rob's House]

“By eliminating those jobs, you would be eliminating the experience that a first job provides and teaching a work ethic.”

Why would jobs be eliminated? Has this happened in states where the MW has been raised significantly? Have businesses closed?

“If the MW goes up, won't all payroll taxes also increase?

 

So the big winner in this entire discussion is the government.”

Wouldn’t a big winner in this case be our children as the deficit would get reduced?

I think a big aspect not talked about is the earned income tax credit. The US taxpayer is essentially supplementing a large portion of MW workers by giving them money for working at MW jobs – so in essence – the economy is already supporting a higher MW just in a very convoluted way – and in essence giving companies like Walmart a huge subsidy.

 

Take a company that pays the average worker above minimum wage - say $10/hr. You think you can Jack his labor cost up 50% without serious adverse effects?

 

And this "earned" tax credit business and it's de facto "subsidy" of Wal Mart's is absolutely ridiculous, but I'm all for testing the theory. Let's do away with it and see if its absence forces Wal Mart to raise wages.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Rob's House

[TH3]

“Take a company that pays the average worker above minimum wage - say $10/hr. You think you can Jack his labor cost up 50% without serious adverse effects?”

My point is – You speak without back up – We have states – Oregon – that have raised the MW appreciably – was this then accompanied by a reduction in employment and closing of businesses? – Are you just speaking from a political point of view or have you done actual research to back up your points?

 

“And this "earned" tax credit business and it's de facto "subsidy" of Wal Mart's is absolutely ridiculous, but I'm all for testing the theory. Let's do away with it and see if its absence forces Wal Mart to raise wages.”

I don’t believe that it would force Walmart to do anything – they already pay as low as they can. What it would do would be to put 10’s of millions of citizens who work full time into abject poverty. US society has already decided that minimum wage is not enough to maintain a household at levels we can live with so we supplement and reward them for working by paying them with the EIC. The EIC is – BTW – a GOP favorite as it rewards people to actually maintain employment.

 

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/cepr-blog/2014-job-creation-in-states-that-raised-the-minimum-wage

 

2014 Job Creation Faster in States that Raised the Minimum Wage - Per Goldman Sachs

[GG]

“Take a company that pays the average worker above minimum wage - say $10/hr. You think you can Jack his labor cost up 50% without serious adverse effects?”

 

My point is – You speak without back up – We have states – Oregon – that have raised the MW appreciably – was this then accompanied by a reduction in employment and closing of businesses? – Are you just speaking from a political point of view or have you done actual research to back up your points?

 

“And this "earned" tax credit business and it's de facto "subsidy" of Wal Mart's is absolutely ridiculous, but I'm all for testing the theory. Let's do away with it and see if its absence forces Wal Mart to raise wages.”

 

I don’t believe that it would force Walmart to do anything – they already pay as low as they can. What it would do would be to put 10’s of millions of citizens who work full time into abject poverty. US society has already decided that minimum wage is not enough to maintain a household at levels we can live with so we supplement and reward them for working by paying them with the EIC. The EIC is – BTW – a GOP favorite as it rewards people to actually maintain employment.

 

http://www.cepr.net/...he-minimum-wage

 

2014 Job Creation Faster in States that Raised the Minimum Wage - Per Goldman Sachs

 

Keep watching the retail, hospitality and food service industry employment once ACA is fully kicked in and technology becomes more capable.

 

As for the GS report, even the article's authors agree " While this kind of simple exercise can't establish causality, it does provide evidence against theoretical negative employment effects of minimum-wage increases."

 

Nice caveat - yeah we know that we can't tie the causation to the correlation, but we're going to do it anyway. Wonder if you're the author of that piece.

[Rob's House]

“Take a company that pays the average worker above minimum wage - say $10/hr. You think you can Jack his labor cost up 50% without serious adverse effects?”

My point is – You speak without back up – We have states – Oregon – that have raised the MW appreciably – was this then accompanied by a reduction in employment and closing of businesses? – Are you just speaking from a political point of view or have you done actual research to back up your points?

 

“And this "earned" tax credit business and it's de facto "subsidy" of Wal Mart's is absolutely ridiculous, but I'm all for testing the theory. Let's do away with it and see if its absence forces Wal Mart to raise wages.”

I don’t believe that it would force Walmart to do anything – they already pay as low as they can. What it would do would be to put 10’s of millions of citizens who work full time into abject poverty. US society has already decided that minimum wage is not enough to maintain a household at levels we can live with so we supplement and reward them for working by paying them with the EIC. The EIC is – BTW – a GOP favorite as it rewards people to actually maintain employment.

 

To your first point - Show me a state that's ever doubled minimum wage, or even hiked it up 50% in a short period of time. I can't think of any. Common sense tells anyone who's ever managed a small business that a 50% hike in labor cost can, and in many cases will, be disastrous. I haven't recently reviewed minimum wage effects, but last time I did I know states like CA with high minimum wage laws had double digit unemployment while states like VA Who adhere only to Fed min wage laws were at full employment.

 

To your second point - You're speaking primarily of people who don't exist. If we're going to start subsidizing responsible people who are perpetually stuck in minimum wage jobs should we not subsidize Santa Clause as well?

[TH3]

To your second point - You're speaking primarily of people who don't exist. If we're going to start subsidizing responsible people who are perpetually stuck in minimum wage jobs should we not subsidize Santa Clause as well?

 

Almost 30 million households received EIC in 2014 and EIC is the 3^rd largest government subsidy (welfare) program. As I said – we are already paying more than the MW – just doing it through the government.

 

Santa is subsidized by love from the children of the world!

Edited December 5, 2014 by baskin

[Rob's House]

To your second point - You're speaking primarily of people who don't exist. If we're going to start subsidizing responsible people who are perpetually stuck in minimum wage jobs should we not subsidize Santa Clause as well?

 

Almost 30 million households received EIC in 2014 and EIC is the 3^rd largest government subsidy (welfare) program. As I said – we are already paying more than the MW – just doing it through the government.

 

Santa is subsidized by love from the children of the world!

 

I know and have known a lot of people on those programs. I've also worked with a lot of people who can't hold a job for more than 6 weeks because they have a horrible attitude and a feeling of entitlement.

 

What I've never seen, or know of anyone else having seen, is a responsible person perpetually stuck in a minimum wage job. Not one.

[Azalin]

 

What I've never seen, or know of anyone else having seen, is a responsible person perpetually stuck in a minimum wage job. Not one.

 

 

This X 2

[DC Tom]

What I've never seen, or know of anyone else having seen, is a responsible person perpetually stuck in a minimum wage job. Not one.

 

I've seen one - my sister-in-law. Responsible, yes (she takes care of her 35-year old disabled son), but for a variety of reasons she's completely incapable of developing the skills necessary to progress from minimum-wage labor.

[IDBillzFan]

What I've never seen, or know of anyone else having seen, is a responsible person perpetually stuck in a minimum wage job. Not one.

 

What you fail to understand is not all people are responsible. Not all people want to work. And it's not fair. Why should those who are responsible and want to work get all the good jobs?

 

The only way to balance that out is to pay more money to the irresponsible deadwoods of the workplace.

[Rob's House]

 

 

I've seen one - my sister-in-law. Responsible, yes (she takes care of her 35-year old disabled son), but for a variety of reasons she's completely incapable of developing the skills necessary to progress from minimum-wage labor.

 

From minimum wage or low wage? Can she really not get a job paying $12-15/hr, and if not is it due to her situation caring for her disabled son and/or some form of mental illness?

 

 

 

What you fail to understand is not all people are responsible. Not all people want to work. And it's not fair. Why should those who are responsible and want to work get all the good jobs?

 

The only way to balance that out is to pay more money to the irresponsible deadwoods of the workplace.

 

That's really what I see from these arguments. Anywhere I've worked there have always been useless employees that wash out and no one feels sorry for them. But in liberal la la land they project some made up story upon the statistics that are those people, and buy and sell it as a story of the virtuous but unfortunate downtrodden. It's fantasy.

[DC Tom]

From minimum wage or low wage? Can she really not get a job paying $12-15/hr, and if not is it due to her situation caring for her disabled son and/or some form of mental illness?

 

She really can't. Lots of factors go into it: part of it is lack of opportunity, since in Mickey Rat Land (Orlando) there's a relative imbalance between minimum wage and higher-paying jobs. But a big part of it is simply lack of education and lack of comprehension that she could get an education if she wanted to. It's a feature of growing up dirt poor - poor people tend to have fewer opportunities in large part because they are completely unaware that there ARE opportunities. I don't know that you can realistically call that lack of awareness and understanding a lack of responsibility - really, if you haven't seen it, you wouldn't believe that mindset could exist. "Dirt poor" tends to perpetuate itself because of it.

 

And by "dirt poor," I mean "walked to school, three miles, in the dirt, with no shoes, and only ate for lunch what she could steal from the orange groves on the way to school." Literally. My wife has foot problems from growing up shoeless.

[Rob's House]

 

 

She really can't. Lots of factors go into it: part of it is lack of opportunity, since in Mickey Rat Land (Orlando) there's a relative imbalance between minimum wage and higher-paying jobs. But a big part of it is simply lack of education and lack of comprehension that she could get an education if she wanted to. It's a feature of growing up dirt poor - poor people tend to have fewer opportunities in large part because they are completely unaware that there ARE opportunities. I don't know that you can realistically call that lack of awareness and understanding a lack of responsibility - really, if you haven't seen it, you wouldn't believe that mindset could exist. "Dirt poor" tends to perpetuate itself because of it.

 

And by "dirt poor," I mean "walked to school, three miles, in the dirt, with no shoes, and only ate for lunch what she could steal from the orange groves on the way to school." Literally. My wife has foot problems from growing up shoeless.

 

I have seen it, and perhaps "responsible" isn't the best word for it, but it sums it up as well as any word I can think of.

 

Her situation sounds more to me like a guy I know who is now living out of his car and pan handling because he can't hold a job due to emotional problems that prevent him from being ale to work with people. It's different because he has some marketable skills, but in neither case is a minimum wage hike a realistic or efficient solution.

 

I'm not really sure how anyone who has ever worked, even at a minimum wage job, for any length of time can't see the opportunity to at least get to around the level they're talking about. Even if they grew up poor. If you're bagging groceries or flipping burgers for $7/hr is the opportunity of assistant manager or cashier really that elusive? It seems these issues run deeper than mere lack of opportunity.

[KD in CA]

Anywhere I've worked there have always been useless employees that wash out and no one feels sorry for them. But in liberal la la land they project some made up story upon the statistics that are those people, and buy and sell it as a story of the virtuous but unfortunate downtrodden. It's fantasy.

 

All those people were all treated unfairly or discriminated against and didn't get a fair shake. Every one of them. That's why we need a level playing field. You must be part of the 1%.

[Chef Jim]

I have seen it, and perhaps "responsible" isn't the best word for it, but it sums it up as well as any word I can think of.

 

Her situation sounds more to me like a guy I know who is now living out of his car and pan handling because he can't hold a job due to emotional problems that prevent him from being ale to work with people. It's different because he has some marketable skills, but in neither case is a minimum wage hike a realistic or efficient solution.

 

I'm not really sure how anyone who has ever worked, even at a minimum wage job, for any length of time can't see the opportunity to at least get to around the level they're talking about. Even if they grew up poor. If you're bagging groceries or flipping burgers for $7/hr is the opportunity of assistant manager or cashier really that elusive? It seems these issues run deeper than mere lack of opportunity.

And that's why the whole "living wage" thing is BS. Sure everyone should have a living wage however that should not be considered a minimum wage. Minimum is just that. Entry level. I was able to live off of minimum wage for 4 years. It was easy I was 14 years old when I started on it. As a matter of fact because of my minimum wage I was the one that always had the weed but was still able to fund half of my college education.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Chef Jim

[keepthefaith]

$15 minimum wage is a quadruple win for Dems...

 

Helps illegal immigrant workers who can now can get work permits

Helps other supporters that like getting a raise

Those that get squeezed out of jobs as a result will like the broader safety net that dems offer resulting in even more votes

Dems can blame the greedy private sector for job losses

[Tiberius]

And that's why the whole "living wage" thing is BS. Sure everyone should have a living wage however that should not be considered a minimum wage. Minimum is just that. Entry level. I was able to live off of minimum wage for 4 years. It was easy I was 14 years old when I started on it. As a matter of fact because of my minimum wage I was the one that always had the weed but was still able to fund half of my college education.

Some people are not as smart as you though, or don't have as well developed life skills, so this is as far as they go

 

$15 minimum wage is a quadruple win for Dems...

 

Helps illegal immigrant workers who can now can get work permits

Helps other supporters that like getting a raise

Those that get squeezed out of jobs as a result will like the broader safety net that dems offer resulting in even more votes

Dems can blame the greedy private sector for job losses

You don't like it because it will help a political party in some way? How partisan can you get?

[Azalin]

$15 minimum wage is a quadruple win for Dems...

 

Helps illegal immigrant workers who can now can get work permits

Helps other supporters that like getting a raise

Those that get squeezed out of jobs as a result will like the broader safety net that dems offer resulting in even more votes

Dems can blame the greedy private sector for job losses

 

Raising the minimum wage also furthers the intrest of labor unions, who base their pay scale primarily off of the current minimum wage.

[Tiberius]

Raising the minimum wage also furthers the intrest of labor unions, who base their pay scale primarily off of the current minimum wage.

 

Lower gas prices also help labor unions, it costs less for a union member to drive somewhere. Quick, raise taxes on gas!

[Azalin]

Lower gas prices also help labor unions, it costs less for a union member to drive somewhere. Quick, raise taxes on gas!

 

I'm only pointing out that unions have a vested interest in a higher minimum wage. I'm not making a philsophical argument against them.

[meazza]

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit we don't even have minimum wage at $15 in the Peoples Republic of Quebekistan.

[IDBillzFan]

Some people are not as smart as you though, or don't have as well developed life skills, so this is as far as they go

 

Just because you can't get farther than floor mopper at Denny's doesn't mean mopping the floor is worth $15/hour.

 

Go to any community college in any town in any county in any state, prove to them you're poor and stupid and they WILL fix both of those at no cost to you.

 

But that's not the progressive way now, is it? No. The poor and stupid like yourself would rather spend your time whining about being poor and stupid because taking personal responsibility to better yourself is just too darn difficult.

 

Dumbass.

[KD in CA]

Some people are not as smart as you though, or don't have as well developed life skills, so this is as far as they go

 

And therefore we should assume no one is smart or has developed life skills, and that no one should be expected to overcome those (or any) obstacles with determination and hard work. Instead we should just give everyone a medal and $15/hr for doing nothing.

 

Yup, that's how you build a global economic superpower alright!

Edited December 8, 2014 by KD in CT

[B-Man]

STUDY: 2007 Minimum Wage Increase Made Recession/Unemployment Worse.

 

 

.

[Koko78]

And therefore we should assume no one is smart or has developed life skills, and that no one should be expected to overcome those (or any) obstacles with determination and hard work. Instead we should just give everyone a medal and $15/hr for doing nothing.

 

Yup, that's how you build a global economic superpower alright!

 

Don't forget to give them a trophy with that medal and $15/hr. Everyone should have a trophy so that no one feels left out.

[keepthefaith]

Some people are not as smart as you though, or don't have as well developed life skills, so this is as far as they go

 

You don't like it because it will help a political party in some way? How partisan can you get?

 

Yes, I don't like it because it is completely a political move by elected Democrats because they all know that raising the min wage to 15 bucks will result in job losses and/or reduced hours for workers.

[KD in CA]

 

Yes, I don't like it because it is completely a political move by elected Democrats because they all know that raising the min wage to 15 bucks will result in job losses and/or reduced hours for workers.

 

After which morons like gatortard will be baffled at the unemployment rate and claim businesses don't create enough jobs!

[IDBillzFan]

After which morons like gatortard will be baffled at the unemployment rate and claim businesses don't create enough jobs!

 

It's as simple as this: gatorman will be happy when Senators start explaining that the only way it will ever be fair is when everyone is paid directly from the government. A weekly stipend, if you will. The same amount for everyone.

 

You can see him smiling just thinking about it.

 

But alas, back to the fryer tomorrow.

[KD in CA]

It's as simple as this: gatorman will be happy when Senators start explaining that the only way it will ever be fair is when everyone is paid directly from the government. A weekly stipend, if you will. The same amount for everyone.

 

You can see him smiling just thinking about it.

 

But alas, back to the fryer tomorrow.

 

At which time he'll still be baffled that his life hasn't improved any, and neither will have the lives of those he mislabels "poor".

[B-Man]

You'd think they'd care about public opinion... or... no, you don't need public support when you're shutting down

"Seattle’s $15 minimum wage law goes into effect on April 1, 2015. As that date approaches, restaurant across the city are making the financial decision to close shop. The Washington Policy Center writes that 'closings have occurred across the city, from Grub in the upscale Queen Anne Hill neighborhood, to Little Uncle in gritty Pioneer Square, to the Boat Street Cafe on Western Avenue near the waterfront.'"

Those places all sound so sweet and trendy, and to maintain their image, if they needed to maintain their image, they would want to support nice, progressive things like a jacked up minimum wage law.

Restaurant owners, expecting to operate on thinner margins, have tried to adapt in several ways including “higher menu prices, cheaper, lower-quality ingredients, reduced opening times, and cutting work hours and firing workers,” according to The Seattle Times and Seattle Eater magazine.

As the Washington Policy Center points out, when these strategies are not enough, businesses close, “workers lose their jobs and the neighborhood loses a prized amenity.”

 

 

 

A city dies, but — oh! — what a beautiful corpse!

 

 

.

 

[Tiberius]

You'd think they'd care about public opinion... or... no, you don't need public support when you're shutting down

"Seattle’s $15 minimum wage law goes into effect on April 1, 2015. As that date approaches, restaurant across the city are making the financial decision to close shop. The Washington Policy Center writes that 'closings have occurred across the city, from Grub in the upscale Queen Anne Hill neighborhood, to Little Uncle in gritty Pioneer Square, to the Boat Street Cafe on Western Avenue near the waterfront.'"

 

Those places all sound so sweet and trendy, and to maintain their image, if they needed to maintain their image, they would want to support nice, progressive things like a jacked up minimum wage law.

Restaurant owners, expecting to operate on thinner margins, have tried to adapt in several ways including “higher menu prices, cheaper, lower-quality ingredients, reduced opening times, and cutting work hours and firing workers,” according to The Seattle Times and Seattle Eater magazine.

 

 

 

A city dies, but — oh! — what a beautiful corpse!

 

 

.

 

Totally bogus, right wing hit piece. Love how your links always have links to links. Only an idiot would believe them.

[TakeYouToTasker]

Totally bogus, right wing hit piece. Love how your links always have links to links. Only an idiot would believe them.

I owned and opperated multiple restaurants for years, and the article is spot on.

[IDBillzFan]

Totally bogus, right wing hit piece. Love how your links always have links to links. Only an idiot would believe them.

 

Seattle Magazine did a right wing hit piece?

[DC Tom]

Totally bogus, right wing hit piece. Love how your links always have links to links. Only an idiot would believe them.

 

It's amazing. You'd think, after all this time, we would have found at least one subject you're not completely ignorant about. But no. You're equally ill-informed about every single damned thing under the sun. It's friggin' amazing.