Chris Williams to IR

[FireChan]

Hey Mr 10 posts, many top NFL websites often refer to PFF as their bible, and they are a reliable source for getting it right.

 

What reports about Levitre, got a link to backup what you say?

 

Doug Legursky also graded as the Steelers worst O lineman when he was signed as a backup center, and he turned out to be just as bad as his grade stated he was. PFF also graded Cordy Glenn (+23.0) in 2013, were they wrong?

 

Here's some links for you.

 

While Levitre’s gotten better through his first 12 games in Nashville, he isn’t hiding from having a lesser season than he and the team anticipated.

 

“I know I haven’t been playing well this season,” Levitre said. “I don’t want to say it was from my [knee] surgery after last season, I’ve had some other issues going on. I’ve been having a little struggle staying healthy this season. But I’m just trying to play the best I can, get an offseason program under my belt so I can get some of the strength back that I lost last offseason.

 

“I hate to use that as an excuse, I’m not one to point at something else. It’s my issue, I’ve got to deal with it."

 

http://espn.go.com/b...post/_/id/3105/

 

Or how about this one?

 

But he's not off to a good start this season, either, getting beat and drawing penalties on a line that's supposed to be a team strength.

 

There aren't a lot of positions where the Titans have a viable alternative that makes it possible for them to sit a starter.

 

Left guard is actually one.

 

First-round draft pick Taylor Lewan is a guard who played Levitre's position for a couple weeks at the start of training camp after Levitre had an appendectomy.

 

Could Lewan take over the spot?

 

"I'd certainly think that's a consideration if things aren't handled the way they're supposed to be handled," coach Ken Whisenhunt said.

 

http://espn.go.com/b...ce-andy-levitre

 

And this last one, straight from the glorious PFF site

 

Summary: This line really should be a lot better for all the investment in it. Chance Warmack was viewed as a can’t-miss NFL prospect who would dominate but has not been that guy and Andy Levitre has failed to justify his big 2013 free agent deal.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/10/08/offensive-line-rankings-2/2/

 

He. Wasn't. That. Good.

Edited October 11, 2014 by FireChan

[thewildrabbit]

Let's go down the checklist.

 

PFF stats only? Check. No mention of Levitre being graded awful now? Check. No mention of Levitre being one of the worst run-block guards in the NFL? Check.

 

Levitre is a half guard FTL. You need to stop bringing him up, he wasn't "one of our best linemen." The 2012 offensive line "grades" at PFF were completely inflated by our spread system with Chan, and our quick-and-short pass game. Notice how Levitre sucks now?

Levitre did grade as the best pass blocker on the team. He wasn't all that great at run blocking.

 

But, WHO CARES HOW HE IS PLAYING NOW!!

 

Its about who they tried to replace him with...for two years now!

 

 

 

 

EDIT: oh wait let me bold up some stuff for ya....

Edited October 11, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

This is no big loss. Richardson isn't a drop off and has a much better upside. Urbik is a nice back-up.

[FireChan]

Levitre did grade as the best pass blocker on the team. He wasn't all that great at run blocking.

 

But, WHO CARES HOW HE IS PLAYING NOW!!

 

Its about who they tried to replace him with...for two years now!

 

Maybe how he's playing now is an indication on how he'd be playing on our team now? Maybe? Obviously you care about Levitre, you seem to bring him up all the time. You post his miraculous 2012 stats. You say things like, "In 2012 Andy Levitre graded a (+17.3), and graded as the best pass blocking player on that line. So, the Bills let one of their best O lineman leave"

 

Also, let's see some of those vaunted high picks used on O-line are working out, using the great and powerful PFF.

 

Dud: Perhaps it’s time to start worrying about Eric Fisher? Switched to the left side he’s still allowing too much pressure and has yet to step up in the run game. To justify that first overall pick he needs to really step it up.

 

Dud: As a rookie Matt Kalil looked like he was destined to be one of the top tackles in the league. A so-so sophomore season has turned into a full-on terrible third year. His efforts against both New England and New Orleans were not good enough, though there has been signs of improvement the past two weeks.

 

Chance Warmack was viewed as a can’t-miss NFL prospect who would dominate but has not been that guy

 

Dud: He’s only played 63 snaps but there are severe question marks over Menelik Watson who looks something of a liability in pass protection when he gets on the field.

 

Dud: You could blame Greg Robinson for only earning 10 snaps of action

 

https://www.profootb...e-rankings-2/4/

Edited October 11, 2014 by FireChan

[3rdand12]

This was far from a Derrick Dockery situation.

 

But the signing did virtual nothing for this team in need of better guard play.

Well , the Team lost alot of time invested. Coaching him up. Giving him reps etc.

This should be chalked up as a Mistake. and potentially or IMO definitely , a significant setback for the team.

o well. move on . quickly please Mr Whaley

[Kelly the Dog]

Levitre did grade as the best pass blocker on the team. He wasn't all that great at run blocking.

 

But, WHO CARES HOW HE IS PLAYING NOW!!

 

Its about who they tried to replace him with...for two years now!

 

 

 

 

EDIT: oh wait let me bold up some stuff for ya....

Who cares how he is playing now? That is your reasoning? He's apparently been horrible this year. Before last week I read PFF had him as the Titans worst lineman, with minus ratings on run and pass and given up two sacks and four hurries in four games.

[thewildrabbit]

Maybe how he's playing now is an indication on how he'd be playing on our team now? Maybe?

He was injury free his entire time in Buffalo while Eric Wood went on IR year after year.

 

If you actually read what you posted you would have read that he had surgery and has acknowledged he has struggled this season...but, WHO CARES!!

 

This thread is about who the Bills tried to replace him with in Colin Brown 2013. A LG who graded a horrid (-30.1) before he was cut after week 6 last year. Did PFF get that wrong? No they didn't!

 

Legursky had graded a ghastly -36.4 grade in part-time duty in his three seasons with the Steelers. Did PFF get that wrong? No they didn't!

 

Bottom line: Why bring a scrubs in like Williams & Legursky in the first place?

Edited October 11, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[CardinalScotts]

Sure would like to see them make a trade for a OG.......

 

It isnt so much losing Williams and replacing him with Richardson......which I think will end up being a mainstay qualtiy starter with time......

 

Its that now we have Pears on the other side and no options.....we need a starter there

 

what trades are out there during the season ? almost never happens

[3rdand12]

Let's go down the checklist.

 

PFF stats only? Check. No mention of Levitre being graded awful now? Check. No mention of Levitre being one of the worst run-block guards in the NFL? Check.

 

Levitre is a half guard FTL. You need to stop bringing him up, he wasn't "one of our best linemen." The 2012 offensive line "grades" at PFF were completely inflated by our spread system with Chan, and our quick-and-short pass game. Notice how Levitre sucks now?

I thought he had been dinged up all year for those guys.

No point in comparing the two anymore really .

Chris Williams did not look good before he got to Buffalo . I am going to bet Cyril far exceeds Wiliams in everything but experience.

for anyone who might forget Urbik is the only BU to center i think. sure you want to start him at guard ?

[thewildrabbit]

Sure would like to see them make a trade for a OG.......

 

It isnt so much losing Williams and replacing him with Richardson......which I think will end up being a mainstay quality starter with time......

 

Its that now we have Pears on the other side and no options.....we need a starter there

Welp, Buddy Nix signed FA RT Cornell Green in 2010 who was cut after week six. Then Nix brought in both Pears & Urbik right directly off the waiver wire, and both proved to be decent band-aids that season and beyond.

 

If Whaley doesn't want to sign Richie Incognito, a OG who could help big time in the remaining 10 games. It might be wise to go the waiver wire route Nix went with in 2010, as Pears is grading as the worst OG in the NFL. even if you don't believe that grade. Try watching his play, if you can stomach it.

[BillsVet]

Their first UFA signing this year...and he's on IR, but not before getting 5.5M guaranteed.

 

Not a huge contract, not a good decision either considering the back injury history.

[San-O]

damn, would be nice to have an only-slightly-below-average player in at guard.

 

Why do the Bills have such a long history of horrible O linemen signings? Through many different regimes also.

[FireChan]

He was injury free his entire time in Buffalo while Eric Wood went on IR year after year.

 

If you actually read what you posted you would have read that he had surgery and has acknowledged he has struggled this season...but, WHO CARES!!

 

This thread is about who the Bills tried to replace him with in Colin Brown 2013. A LG who graded a horrid (-30.1) before he was cut after week 6 last year. Did PFF get that wrong? No they didn't!

 

Legursky had graded a ghastly -36.4 grade in part-time duty in his three seasons with the Steelers. Did PFF get that wrong? No they didn't!

 

Bottom line: Why bring a scrubs in like Williams & Legursky in the first place?

 

Actually, if you had read what I posted, that article was from 2013. The second article was from 2014. You just raced to respond.

 

He was so injury-free in Buffalo that he immediately underwent surgery after signing a bonkers contract. Okay.

 

Who do you suggest to get to replace wonderful Levitre? I already posted multiple high round draft picks who suck, many of whom you clamored for. So who? Incognito? If I remember correctly, you wanted to draft one of those sucky first-round G's over Incognito.

 

Edit: Turns out I did remember correctly.

 

#9 Greg Robinson Hey, I can dream can't I?

 

http://forums.twobil...ion-mock-draft/

 

Good call on Greg "10 snaps all year" Robinson. Kid looks like a stud. He lost his job to Davin Joesph who, wait for it, was the second worst guard in 2013 according to PFF.

Edited October 12, 2014 by FireChan

[K-9]

?

he has shown me little . But why this ^ comment ?

 

As I said in a subsequent post above, I don't think football is a burning passion of his anymore. That's what I mean by commitment. Again, not attacking his character. These questions go back to his rookie year and not just by me.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Punching Bag]

Just some food for thought here. In 2012 Andy Levitre graded a (+17.3), and graded as the best pass blocking player on that line. So, the Bills let one of their best O lineman leave, and continue to try and replace him with utter garbage.

I don't get it.

 

They are trying to make those who love to complain more than love to win happy. You seem very happy.

[Jamie Nails]

What do you think the Saints fans are saying about the Byrd signing?

[San-O]

Hey Mr 10 posts, many top NFL websites often refer to PFF as their bible, and they are a reliable source for getting it right.

 

What reports about Levitre, got a link to backup what you say?

 

Doug Legursky also graded as the Steelers worst O lineman when he was signed as a backup center, and he turned out to be just as bad as his grade stated he was. PFF also graded Cordy Glenn (+23.0) in 2013, were they wrong?

 

The Bills have graded as the worst collective O line in Pro football? Did I read that correctly? That's actually pretty impressive!!!

[mdk]

I questioned his commitment going back to his rookie year with Chicago. And that's not an attack on his character. Some guys, big lineman mostly, seem to lose the fire once they get paid. And I think we'll see more of that as the issue of brain damage keeps coming to the fore, especially among lineman.

 

I can see why that seems ridiculous and again, I'm not attacking Williams' character, I just don't think he's committed to the game long-term.

 

GO BILLS!!!

You're "not attacking Williams character?" Everything you said questioned his character.

[FireChan]

You're "not attacking Williams character?" Everything you said questioned his character.

 

Not to speak for K-9 but I don't think "character" means sacrifice your life for a paycheck. Especially for a game.

[Kelly the Dog]

Their first UFA signing this year...and he's on IR, but not before getting 5.5M guaranteed.

 

Not a huge contract, not a good decision either considering the back injury history.

Terrible signing. Not sure what they were thinking. I'm sure what Marrone saw on tape made him think they could coach him up. I'm not sure about Marrone as a HC yet, and I'm also not sure of him as any kind of OL guru.

 

Overall the FA signings all around have been pretty good. A lot of depth cogs. ST is clearly significantly improved. Graham, Dixon, Rivers, Orton, Gay, Schmidt have all performed.

[K-9]

You're "not attacking Williams character?" Everything you said questioned his character.

 

Not at all. I'm simply questioning his commitment to wanting to be a football player anymore. That's not an attack on his character, it's a comment on what he would rather do with his life. Sorry you read it that way.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[truth on hold]

and yet a pro-bowl guard in his prime can be had for league minimum ... wow

 

[thewildrabbit]

Actually, if you had read what I posted, that article was from 2013. The second article was from 2014. You just raced to respond.

 

He was so injury-free in Buffalo that he immediately underwent surgery after signing a bonkers contract. Okay.

 

Who do you suggest to get to replace wonderful Levitre? I already posted multiple high round draft picks who suck, many of whom you clamored for. So who? Incognito? If I remember correctly, you wanted to draft one of those sucky first-round G's over Incognito.

 

Edit: Turns out I did remeber correctly.

 

#9 Greg Robinson Hey, I can dream can't I?

 

http://forums.twobil...ion-mock-draft/

 

Good call on Greg "10 snaps all year" Robinson. Kid looks like a stud. He lost his job to Davin Joesph who, wait for it, was the second worst guard in 2014 according to PFF.

and if you look further into last year my favorite player in the draft was OG Zack Martin, as I also had him as my avatar for quite awhile.

 

Buffalo was so desperate for a RT they drafted two this year, and Doug Whaley lucked out that the 7th round pick, and looks far, far better then the OT taken with the 2nd round pick. If the picks were reversed I doubt the 7th rounder even makes the team. There was also I time I wanted the Bills to draft OT Jake Matthews to solidify that RT position. I was also thinking RT because the Bills had already signed the scrub Williams in free agency, so no use in hoping for an early draft pick for a OG.

 

 

Anyway, there was a solid reason Andy Levitre was given the money from the Titans 6 years, 46.8 million, as he hadn't missed one single game from the time he was drafted until the time he left Buffalo (2009-2012). Lots of teams were interested in signing Levitre, as in 2012 he graded (+17.3).

He did need to undergo surgery the next season, and he stated he isn't playing up to his ability this season. Like I said, he has acknowledged that fact. Levitre wasn't just the Bills top pass protector, as he also graded as PFF's top OG as pass protection in 2012. Stating that he also graded as a (-.7) in run blocking. Did PFF get those grades wrong? Not from what I've seen.

 

I've never advocated keeping Andy Levitre for 7.8 per. I just wanted to see him adequately replaced with a decent player.

 

The bottom line, and more important point is this team continues to think they can scrape the bottom of other teams dumpsters for OG's. This isn't working on any level, and should be the very last resort considering the team was starting a young, inexperienced QB. The school of thought that you can always kick an OT into a guard doesn't seem to be working either.

[Dragonborn10]

Been calling for this for two weeks.

Now take step two and trade for a guard or sign Incognito.

[thewildrabbit]

The Bills have graded as the worst collective O line in Pro football? Did I read that correctly? That's actually pretty impressive!!!

Yea, they are starting a rookie 7th rounder at RT, and a rookie 5th rounder at LG. Not to mention a complete waste of money at RG.

 

 

https://www.profootb...ine-rankings-2/

 

32. Buffalo Bills

PB: 31st, RB: 31st, PEN: 6th

 

"Dud: The switch to right guard has not been kind to Erik Pears. Our lowest-ranked guard on the year, he’s been an abomination in the run game while allowing far too much pressure up the gut. There have been signs of progress but not enough to convince."

Edited October 12, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[3rdand12]

As I said in a subsequent post above, I don't think football is a burning passion of his anymore. That's what I mean by commitment. Again, not attacking his character. These questions go back to his rookie year and not just by me.

 

GO BILLS!!!

fair enough.

[truth on hold]

Been calling for this for two weeks.

Now take step two and trade for a guard or sign Incognito.

my hunch is that better guard play is worth another 15-20 yards running per game ... that's just one or two more big runs from spiller. That extra 15-20 yards per probably worth at least one W too ...

Edited October 12, 2014 by Joe_the_6_pack

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

No one is going to sign incognito, especially not the newest owner in the league.

[thewildrabbit]

No one is going to sign incognito, especially not the newest owner in the league.

From what i gathered at the presser the new owners haven't really taken a hard look at the team just yet, and are leaving things in the hands of Brandon &co.

 

Whats most important is winning this year to keep the status quo, and like others have stated better play at the OG would help produce better play of the entire offense currently ranked #28.

 

I know Incognito is a different kind of crazy when he beats up his Ferrari, and not his family members, or verbally griefs teammates when they don't perform up to their pay grade.Normally I wouldn't want that clown on my team for anything, but from what I see this team is just about as desperate as desperate can get for a RG, and the Bills should take a chance on him for the remaining 10 games IMO.

 

Besides the NFL has fully cleared the guy for a full return. I suppose we will need to see what kind of performance the line has against that Patriots team that is currently #4 in total defense.

[Manther]

 

 

Why do the Bills have such a long history of horrible O linemen signings? Through many different regimes also.

I don't think it is the only reason...because some have sucked immediately but the changing of coaches and schemes probably doesn't help. Also I believe especially with O linemen they can be products of a system and don't do as well in other systems.

[FireChan]

From what i gathered at the presser the new owners haven't really taken a hard look at the team just yet, and are leaving things in the hands of Brandon &co.

 

Whats most important is winning this year to keep the status quo, and like others have stated better play at the OG would help produce better play of the entire offense currently ranked #28.

 

I know Incognito is a different kind of crazy when he beats up his Ferrari, and not his family members, or verbally griefs teammates when they don't perform up to their pay grade.Normally I wouldn't want that clown on my team for anything, but from what I see this team is just about as desperate as desperate can get for a RG, and the Bills should take a chance on him for the remaining 10 games IMO.

 

Besides the NFL has fully cleared the guy for a full return. I suppose we will need to see what kind of performance the line has against that Patriots team that is currently #4 in total defense.

 

The goal now is to win, yes. Is Incognito worth the risk to the locker room? I'm not sure, because we don't know the risk Incognito poses, and neither does the FO. Personally, I think Cyril and Seantrel will improve as the season goes on, and the unit will improve each week. We're not going to be perfect, but seeing as how there's only one rookie lineman a year who gets plugged in and dominates, that was to be pretty much expected. Let's hope Richardson and Seantrel get better as they adjust to the NFL. Clearly, Marrone and co. feel they will. If not, they'll give up on them and make a move for a G.

 

Or they won't, the o-line will suck, and we'll get dominated up front all year. But you don't need to keep beating this same drum, we all agree with your analysis of Pears and the rookies. Whaley doesn't read this board.

Edited October 12, 2014 by FireChan

[Manther]

 

Terrible signing. Not sure what they were thinking. I'm sure what Marrone saw on tape made him think they could coach him up. I'm not sure about Marrone as a HC yet, and I'm also not sure of him as any kind of OL guru.

 

Overall the FA signings all around have been pretty good. A lot of depth cogs. ST is clearly significantly improved. Graham, Dixon, Rivers, Orton, Gay, Schmidt have all performed.

I am just speculating...but think Marrone was pushing Whaley on this as the perfect fit for his system especially with his run blocking as Marrone wants to run...run....run....accept when we play poor run defenses like Houston.

[FireChan]

 

I don't think it is the only reason...because some have sucked immediately but the changing of coaches and schemes probably doesn't help. Also I believe especially with O linemen they can be products of a system and don't do as well in other systems.

 

Yep. Look at Levitre and to a lesser extent, Wood. While Wood is a good player, he looked much better with Chan's scheme. I think most offensive linemen would look good in Chan's scheme, simply because of how fast Fitz got his release off and our reliance on short throws. Pears even looked serviceable.

[dollars 2 donuts]

its not just PFF, Football outsiders. or just browse the internet.

 

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=nfl+offensive+line+rankings+for+2014

 

"And then there is Chris Williams, the Ted McGinley of offensive linemen. The Bears, at their wishful-thinking worst, slid Williams from top left tackle prospect to right tackle to guard to backup center to Mike Tice golf caddie. The Rams then acquired Williams to ensure that Sam Bradford did not get any funny ideas about getting comfortable in the pocket. If you are planning to start Chris Williams, you need to do some better planning. The Bills have rookie Cyril Richardson in the fold, but the name "Chris Williams" atop a depth chart is reason enough to keep an offensive line near the bottom of any list."

 

 

 

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/77779304/nfl-best-worst-offensive-lines-dallas-cowboys-new-england-patriots-baltimore-ravens

 

He had me at, "...the Ted McGinley of offensive linemen."

 

 

[Big C]

Lets not ignore that San Diego, arguably the best team in football right now, has the 31st ranked line according to PFF. Good QB play offsets a lot of poor line play. The line somehow looked better with Orton back there, although we know he got hit plenty.

[Manther]

 

 

Yep. Look at Levitre and to a lesser extent, Wood. While Wood is a good player, he looked much better with Chan's scheme. I think most offensive linemen would look good in Chan's scheme, simply because of how fast Fitz got his release off and our reliance on short throws. Pears even looked serviceable.

I agree with you on Wood too. Chan's offense made the whole O line look good. I can't tell because I am not good at evaluation g the O lone and the Guard play has been poor...but...it seems Wood is not as strong run blocking as pass blocking. Hopefully with better Guard play Wood will play better. Overall he is good enough

though.

[truth on hold]

 

 

The goal now is to win, yes. Is Incognito worth the risk to the locker room? I'm not sure, because we don't know the risk Incognito poses, and neither does the FO. Personally, I think Cyril and Seantrel will improve as the season goes on, and the unit will improve each week. We're not going to be perfect, but seeing as how there's only one rookie lineman a year who gets plugged in and dominates, that was to be pretty much expected. Let's hope Richardson and Seantrel get better as they adjust to the NFL. Clearly, Marrone and co. feel they will. If not, they'll give up on them and make a move for a G.

 

Or they won't, the o-line will suck, and we'll get dominated up front all year. But you don't need to keep beating this same drum, we all agree with your analysis of Pears and the rookies. Whaley doesn't read this board.

Dolphins players loved the guy. Tannehill even stuck his neck out sticking up for him at risk of being criticized for supporting a racist. It was just that jackass Martin who used the exact same language as richie, but was having a hard time ajustting to NFL (no wonder he's not very good). And blamed scapegoated Richie for his problems. If dog drowning Vick and Riley Cooper (who clearly used racist terms) can play, why can't Richie for using off color language kidding with a guy who he thought was a friend and was using the same language ?

[billsfan89]

Even the casuals knew this was a horrible signing when it happened.

 

Which is odd since the team has usually been good in recent years with signing guards off the scrap heap. They went after Williams pretty aggressive and the money wasn't insignificant. Doesn't Williams have some guaranteed next year? That would really be a bad signing if he has an impact on the cap next year.

[jr1]

analytics department has a few kinks

[Rubes]

Lets not ignore that San Diego, arguably the best team in football right now, has the 31st ranked line according to PFF. Good QB play offsets a lot of poor line play. The line somehow looked better with Orton back there, although we know he got hit plenty.

 

I really, really don't think it did.