justnzane Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Did it ever occur to you that maybe EJ cant deliver the ball fast or well enough to run anything else ? What are EJ strengths if he cant make 7-10 yard throws consistently ? thats not being asked to carry the team thats being asked to be competent at your position Ej has been working extensively with the playbook since the spring .and they practice not based on what everyone else likes but what EJ is comfortable with . They look at the weaknesses of the opposing team and put together a package of plays that can exploit the defense that EJ feels comfortable running . You think EJ is that dejected after the game because the coach was calling crap plays or he got hit or someone dropped a pass or two ? hes dejected because he knows full well that hes running about as basic of an offense as they can make it and hes constantly missing throws he knows he should make . Meanwhile you got Orton in practice ,in the film room,and on the sidelines calling out what the defense is running ,who will be open etc and everyone including EJ is really seeing just how far he has to go . Ej is simply not ready Going in reverse order here, EJ is not and has not been ready. However, the coaching staff thought he would have been. They failed him there as he looks like he has had some growth from last year to this. The offense is designed poorly as there was no one running up the middle of the field on the final drive. The coaching did the team no favors as there were no rollout plays or any other plays called to neutralize or go away from Watt. That is a play that is run in every modified level offense on up, yet not called once this season. This brings me to the point that if EJ is not capable of doing what you want, and he is the best you have, you better adapt your system to the strengths of him then. Catering a scheme to what works with Manuel is a great idea, making him throw 2 to running the ball once is a recipe for disaster for any young QB not named P. Manning, Luck, RG3, or Newton. You are trying to tell me that he can't do a three step drop and fire the ball out 7-10 yards? Come on man. If that is case (which I don't think it is), then he shouldn't have made it out of camp. Overall, two bad games in a row should never be enough to bench a QB. I think based on play call selection, that they were trying to tank to get Orton on the field when they realized that he is more polished than a young QB who had 10 starts in his rookie year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 The funny thing is, if you play that last drive 10 times, EJ throws a TD to win the game on a couple of them. He's done it before. Then he is a hero and most people LOVE him in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Yup because there isn't an owner officially in place. If I was the owner, my #1 thing would be to see EJ. Pulling him after 4 games & a 2-2 record isn't giving him much of a chance. The Bills (IMO) mismanaged the QB position in the 2014 offseason (draft and FA), the 2013 FA period, the 2012 draft, the 2011 draft, the 2010 draft... Marrone was the unfortunate recipient of a first round QB in the one year when there wasn't one available. How Whaley ignored the position this past off season boggles my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 But the fact is he didnt so here we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC2002 Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Going in reverse order here, EJ is not and has not been ready. However, the coaching staff thought he would have been. They failed him there as he looks like he has had some growth from last year to this. The offense is designed poorly as there was no one running up the middle of the field on the final drive. The coaching did the team no favors as there were no rollout plays or any other plays called to neutralize or go away from Watt. That is a play that is run in every modified level offense on up, yet not called once this season. This brings me to the point that if EJ is not capable of doing what you want, and he is the best you have, you better adapt your system to the strengths of him then. Catering a scheme to what works with Manuel is a great idea, making him throw 2 to running the ball once is a recipe for disaster for any young QB not named P. Manning, Luck, RG3, or Newton. You are trying to tell me that he can't do a three step drop and fire the ball out 7-10 yards? Come on man. If that is case (which I don't think it is), then he shouldn't have made it out of camp. Overall, two bad games in a row should never be enough to bench a QB. I think based on play call selection, that they were trying to tank to get Orton on the field when they realized that he is more polished than a young QB who had 10 starts in his rookie year. A lot of qbs in today's game cannot play from under center .and most have to learn to play from undr the center when they get to the pros . Such is the era of the read option QB. he doesn't have the accuracy or release for a 3 step drop . Playing under center are issues for most young read option qbs the ones that are having the most success now n the league dont have the accuracy issues The offense you see is catered to EJ thats why its so frustrating for everyone involved . They never had plans to start EJ he was supposed to sit and watch but Kolbs issues forced him into the lineup and now the are taking him out because the yse he simply is not picking up the basics as quickly as he should . You say they should call a rollout away from Watts but whose to say that they didnt give him plays within the package that when he reads the defense pre snap that if he doesnt like it he can audible to a play away from Watts and EJ just missed the reads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Going in reverse order here, EJ is not and has not been ready. However, the coaching staff thought he would have been. They failed him there as he looks like he has had some growth from last year to this. The offense is designed poorly as there was no one running up the middle of the field on the final drive. The coaching did the team no favors as there were no rollout plays or any other plays called to neutralize or go away from Watt. That is a play that is run in every modified level offense on up, yet not called once this season. This brings me to the point that if EJ is not capable of doing what you want, and he is the best you have, you better adapt your system to the strengths of him then. Catering a scheme to what works with Manuel is a great idea, making him throw 2 to running the ball once is a recipe for disaster for any young QB not named P. Manning, Luck, RG3, or Newton. You are trying to tell me that he can't do a three step drop and fire the ball out 7-10 yards? Come on man. If that is case (which I don't think it is), then he shouldn't have made it out of camp. Overall, two bad games in a row should never be enough to bench a QB. I think based on play call selection, that they were trying to tank to get Orton on the field when they realized that he is more polished than a young QB who had 10 starts in his rookie year. I've never seen Manuel fire a pass anywhere. The guy doesn't have good arm talent. Only so many plays you can run when you have a QB who can't zip passes into tight spaces and also has accuracy issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 I've never seen Manuel fire a pass anywhere. The guy doesn't have good arm talent. Only so many plays you can run when you have a QB who can't zip passes into tight spaces and also has accuracy issues. Then you havent watched the games or you're blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) I've never seen Manuel fire a pass anywhere. The guy doesn't have good arm talent. Only so many plays you can run when you have a QB who can't zip passes into tight spaces and also has accuracy issues. You mean like the td pass to Watkins on Sunday? There is enough wrong with EJ's game you don't have to make things up. Edited September 30, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 You mean like the td pass to Watkins on Sunday? There is enough wrong with EJ's game you don't have to make things up. I don't consider 5 yd passes across the middle an example of accuracy or arm strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) I don't care to read through 18 pages of this thread, so please excuse me if I'm just reiterating things that have already been said. I'm guessing that will be the case. I don't hate the move, neither do I love it, at this point. If playing Orton helps to open up the playbook a bit then it will be a good thing, I think. EJ has shown that, at least at the moment, he isn't ready to put the team on his back to win games. I have doubts Orton is that guy, either. While I don't think EJ is the sole reason the Bills have lost the past two games, he certainly was one of the reasons. But without better OL play, play calling, and without the receivers holding onto catchable passes, I think the offense is doomed to make little progress. If nothing else, this move should help the team evaluate the offense without the excuse of the limitations they put on EJ at this stage in his career. Also I suppose, we will see if EJ has the fortitude to survive the demotion (I believe he is mentally tough enough to to so). If he isn't, he probably isn't the QB of the future for this team. Alex Smith is a guy who had similar early struggles in his career and successfully fought through being benched early in his career. EJ has a better skill set than Smith, I think. I just wish our offense looked as well designed as theirs did tonight. For now, can we just enjoy being tied for 1st place in the division, and savoring the superb ass-kicking of Pats* tonight? Or, as Bill fans, is that out of the question? Edited September 30, 2014 by The Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 The Bills (IMO) mismanaged the QB position in the 2014 offseason (draft and FA), the 2013 FA period, the 2012 draft, the 2011 draft, the 2010 draft... Marrone was the unfortunate recipient of a first round QB in the one year when there wasn't one available. How Whaley ignored the position this past off season boggles my mind. This. Manuel avoids throws beyond 5 yards (Trent Edwards), has accuracy issues (Fitzpatrick, but worse), no information processing ability (Losman), and lacks any kind of pocket presence (a hint of Rob Johnson). Nor was Manuel anything special in college; unless one's definition of "special" is a one read QB with accuracy issues. We're not talking the next Joe Montana here. Giving him time to "develop" is not the answer. Nothing about his college performance remotely suggests he's earned that development time. The sooner the Bills realize that drafting him was a boneheaded move, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 This. Manuel avoids throws beyond 5 yards (Trent Edwards), has accuracy issues (Fitzpatrick, but worse), no information processing ability (Losman), and lacks any kind of pocket presence (a hint of Rob Johnson). Nor was Manuel anything special in college; unless one's definition of "special" is a one read QB with accuracy issues. We're not talking the next Joe Montana here. Giving him time to "develop" is not the answer. Nothing about his college performance remotely suggests he's earned that development time. The sooner the Bills realize that drafting him was a boneheaded move, the better. Fair enough. But would trust developing Manuel more if Chip Kelly drafted him instead of the Bills? Because Sanchez had similar issues and looked great this preseason under Kelly. I don't care to read through 18 pages of this thread, so please excuse me if I'm just reiterating things that have already been said. I'm guessing that will be the case. I don't hate the move, neither do I love it, at this point. If playing Orton helps to open up the playbook a bit then it will be a good thing, I think. EJ has shown that, at least at the moment, he isn't ready to put the team on his back to win games. I have doubts Orton is that guy, either. While I don't think EJ is the sole reason the Bills have lost the past two games, he certainly was one of the reasons. But without better OL play, play calling, and without the receivers holding onto catchable passes, I think the offense is doomed to make little progress. If nothing else, this move should help the team evaluate the offense without the excuse of the limitations they put on EJ at this stage in his career. Also I suppose, we will see if EJ has the fortitude to survive the demotion (I believe he is mentally tough enough to to so). If he isn't, he probably isn't the QB of the future for this team. Alex Smith is a guy who had similar early struggles in his career and successfully fought through being benched early in his career. EJ has a better skill set than Smith, I think. I just wish our offense looked as well designed as theirs did tonight. For now, can we just enjoy being tied for 1st place in the division, and savoring the superb ass-kicking of Pats* tonight? Or, as Bill fans, is that out of the question? Fair and reasonable post as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. T Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 This. Manuel avoids throws beyond 5 yards (Trent Edwards), has accuracy issues (Fitzpatrick, but worse), no information processing ability (Losman), and lacks any kind of pocket presence (a hint of Rob Johnson). Nor was Manuel anything special in college; unless one's definition of "special" is a one read QB with accuracy issues. We're not talking the next Joe Montana here. Giving him time to "develop" is not the answer. Nothing about his college performance remotely suggests he's earned that development time. The sooner the Bills realize that drafting him was a boneheaded move, the better. THIS!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flmike Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 EJ was very frustrating to watch while in college. I had hoped that he might develop in a different system, but I see a lot of the same issues. At FSU, his success came from his threat to run on any play. They don't let him do that here (another reason to fire these amateur offensive coaches) so he'd handicapped. He is NOT going to pass you to a win usually. They should have drafted Benjamin, a guy he knew well. I think this was the right move unless the staff was prepared to sacrifice the season to seeing if EJ could rise above his limitations. I'd rather watch them win games. I just went back and looked at Orton videos. Doesn't remind me of Jim Kelly, but he's efficient and seems to see the field well. Nice spiral on the ball and pretty darn accurate. He will not lose you games unless you ask him to win in the last minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper13 Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 I don't get why people don't want this team to win. Look what KC did to NE tonight. Division is up for grabs. 9-7 will probably be good enough. Bills have two QB's. EJ and Orton. Marone decided Orton gives them the best chance to win at this time. EJ was truly awful in the two losses. He has not progressed at all. All they need is adequate play from the QB. 7-5 the rest of the way and they have a legit shot at the playoffs. Orton can do that. EJ at this time can't. Looks like Whaley set three first round picks on fire. Marone knows if they do not win he is a goner. Who can argue that he is doing what he thinks gives them the best chance to win? If he's right- playoffs. If he is wrong- new coach, new GM, new QB next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Going in reverse order here, EJ is not and has not been ready. However, the coaching staff thought he would have been. They failed him there as he looks like he has had some growth from last year to this. The offense is designed poorly as there was no one running up the middle of the field on the final drive. The coaching did the team no favors as there were no rollout plays or any other plays called to neutralize or go away from Watt. That is a play that is run in every modified level offense on up, yet not called once this season. This brings me to the point that if EJ is not capable of doing what you want, and he is the best you have, you better adapt your system to the strengths of him then. Catering a scheme to what works with Manuel is a great idea, making him throw 2 to running the ball once is a recipe for disaster for any young QB not named P. Manning, Luck, RG3, or Newton. You are trying to tell me that he can't do a three step drop and fire the ball out 7-10 yards? Come on man. If that is case (which I don't think it is), then he shouldn't have made it out of camp. Overall, two bad games in a row should never be enough to bench a QB. I think based on play call selection, that they were trying to tank to get Orton on the field when they realized that he is more polished than a young QB who had 10 starts in his rookie year. Completely agree. Well said. The funny thing is, if you play that last drive 10 times, EJ throws a TD to win the game on a couple of them. He's done it before. Then he is a hero and most people LOVE him in Buffalo. I was saying the same thing to a friend today. If the ref calls contact, we keep moving and there's a good chance we win that game and EJ is the talk of the game. But... But the fact is he didnt so here we are. ..and all we can do now is hope that this all works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 EJ was very frustrating to watch while in college. I had hoped that he might develop in a different system, but I see a lot of the same issues. At FSU, his success came from his threat to run on any play. They don't let him do that here (another reason to fire these amateur offensive coaches) so he'd handicapped. He is NOT going to pass you to a win usually. They should have drafted Benjamin, a guy he knew well. I think this was the right move unless the staff was prepared to sacrifice the season to seeing if EJ could rise above his limitations. I'd rather watch them win games. I just went back and looked at Orton videos. Doesn't remind me of Jim Kelly, but he's efficient and seems to see the field well. Nice spiral on the ball and pretty darn accurate. He will not lose you games unless you ask him to win in the last minutes. Let's hope they can obtain leads like they did against the Texans. I always felt this was the problem for Fitz. Force him to win the games for you, if the defense was what it is now I have a feeling he and chan would still be here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
die hard bills fan Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 http://youtu.be/Wf--FS4-gWI Thanks for posting. It's been a long time since I saw him play. He's accurate and his arm strength isn't as bad as I thought. There maybe some hope after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) This does create a dilmena for the tebow haters who've been crying for Orton, and had been using the "elway knows QBs" line to bust on tebow for trading him. But before that he benched orton for tebow Edited September 30, 2014 by Joe_the_6_pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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