The Dougs' Accountability Thread

[3putt]

19k posts. Are all 19k pure tool like this one? Poor choice of hobby.

[BillsVet]

Simply put, the Buffalo Bills have mismanaged the single most important position in all or Pro sports, once again.

 

Post-Donahoe, this is the common denominator. Whether via the draft, free agency, or trades, it's been miss after miss.

 

And it's not simply choosing the wrong QB, it's how they planned for the position. This latest example of trying to go with the likes of Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel as opposed to a veteran is another theme. It's obvious the Bills are deathly afraid of having a QB controversy and prefer to go with unheralded types to avoid the situation.

 

Inevitably someone will ask here what they should have done and predictably respond with a "hindsight is 20/20" response. But the fact remains they're back in an unenviable position trying to win games with a guy who's not ready to play.

[GG]

19k posts. Are all 19k pure tool like this one? Poor choice of hobby.

 

My other hobby is ranking TSW posters on the chart in your avatar.

[3rdand12]

I'd hardly call 2-1 and first place in the division a "perdicament"

oh its a perdicamenent alright.

Bills lost by being schooled. SD is a serious contender.

how do they respond ?

Thats the Coaching.

Whaley ? too soon really

[Augie]

19k posts. Are all 19k pure tool like this one? Poor choice of hobby.

I didn't even read his post. I just had to immediately wonder: why do you care and who made you the judge here? So he likes to post... Is there something wrong with that? If you disagree with his comments or position, why not discuss it intelligently?

 

It turns out I don't agree with him either, but I'm not going to go about it in the wrong way. In fact, I'm not even going to bother right now beyond saying they had a plan and they'll be judged by it in time. They do in fact have a pretty good backup for this year. You can fault them for how they got there, or credit them for getting there. But they will be judged on whether EJ succeeds.

[Dawgg]

1. Their Guards suck.

 

... and who made the personnel decision to sign G Chris Williams to a lucrative deal despite his ranking LAST among starting guards by Pro Football Focus?

 

Oh yeah, Doug Whaley

[Augie]

 

 

... and who made the personnel decision to sign G Chris Williams to a lucrative deal despite his ranking LAST among starting guards by Pro Football Focus?

 

Oh yeah, Doug Whaley

 

I will freely admit to being a Whaley supporter, but that one has me stumped. Really stumped. No one gets them all right I suppose. I think we have a lot of talent on this team (more than I can remember for a long time) and I give him a lot of the credit for that.

[Seasons1992]

People!

 

We are so much closer than we've been since 1999 to a quality team!

 

It's two or three plays a game at this point.

 

Let's finish this season with a second year QB and an owner that hasn't even been technically approved yet. Then, lose your minds.

[hondo in seattle]

Can't hide behind Nix, because Nix needed advice of his pro personnel director on who would replace Fitz if they were to cut him. That was Whaley. Don't forget the Bills signed Jackson in the spring and then decided he wasn't worthy of a training camp invite. This is the same scouting team that reportedly made a strong run at Freeman. This is the administration that thought it was a good plan to draft a raw QB to be coached by a very green OC with zero QB coaching help.

 

So yeah, I can still step away from the canvas and puke up a Jackson Pollock worthy masterpiece.

 

Nix was his own man and made his own decisions. And Whaley isn't simply carrying on Nix's plan and vision. As soon as Whaley took over, he shook the personnel department up. He hired an outsider - Jim Monos - to be the Director of Player Personnel. He brought in another outsider - Kelvin Fisher - to run college scouting. He also, I believe, replaced one of the regional scouts. It should be clear Whaley isn't just a Nix clone. So I'm not judging Whaley on Nix's tenure - only his own. And that tenure has only lasted 1.3 years so far. There's not a lot of evidence on which to base an opinion.

 

... and who made the personnel decision to sign G Chris Williams to a lucrative deal despite his ranking LAST among starting guards by Pro Football Focus?

 

Oh yeah, Doug Whaley

 

Yeah, that was questionable!

[Augie]

 

Let's finish this season with a second year QB and an owner that hasn't even been technically approved yet. Then, lose your minds.

 

I am fully capable of all of that!

:-)

[GG]

Nix was his own man and made his own decisions. And Whaley isn't simply carrying on Nix's plan and vision. As soon as Whaley took over, he shook the personnel department up. He hired an outsider - Jim Monos - to be the Director of Player Personnel. He brought in another outsider - Kelvin Fisher - to run college scouting. He also, I believe, replaced one of the regional scouts. It should be clear Whaley isn't just a Nix clone. So I'm not judging Whaley on Nix's tenure - only his own. And that tenure has only lasted 1.3 years so far. There's not a lot of evidence on which to base an opinion.

 

If you think that after January 2013 Nix made decisions on his own without heavy input from Whaley & Brandon, then you're clueless. And as discussed above, in that 1.3 years, there have been a lot of boneheaded moves at the QB position by the front office & coaching staff.

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

... and who made the personnel decision to sign G Chris Williams to a lucrative deal despite his ranking LAST among starting guards by Pro Football Focus?

 

Oh yeah, Doug Whaley

nfl personnel depts don't use PFF to determine who they sign. Regardless, unimpressed with CW this far.

[Augie]

nfl personnel depts don't use PFF to determine who they sign. Regardless, unimpressed with CW this far.

He's apparently had the back issue for a while. That may be a part of his struggles, or it may just be a lack of talent and a be poor decision. If guards are a dime a dozen (as some say), why can't we get a nickels worth?

[Coach Tuesday]

This thread is depressing... accurate but sad.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Post-Donahoe, this is the common denominator. Whether via the draft, free agency, or trades, it's been miss after miss.

 

And it's not simply choosing the wrong QB, it's how they planned for the position. This latest example of trying to go with the likes of Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel as opposed to a veteran is another theme. It's obvious the Bills are deathly afraid of having a QB controversy and prefer to go with unheralded types to avoid the situation.

 

Inevitably someone will ask here what they should have done and predictably respond with a "hindsight is 20/20" response. But the fact remains they're back in an unenviable position trying to win games with a guy who's not ready to play.

 

I would say it started with Donahoe, choosing Johnson over Flutie, reaching for JP while kicking Bledsoe to the curb. But I could be wrong.

[reddogblitz]

I would say it started with Donahoe, choosing Johnson over Flutie, reaching for JP while kicking Bledsoe to the curb. But I could be wrong.

 

I don't think you're wrong.

[hondo in seattle]

If you think that after January 2013 Nix made decisions on his own without heavy input from Whaley & Brandon, then you're clueless. And as discussed above, in that 1.3 years, there have been a lot of boneheaded moves at the QB position by the front office & coaching staff.

 

Obviously, every GM takes input. Obviously not all of Whaley's input was acted upon. If Whaley loved all of Nix's decisions, why was he so quick to change to folks at the top of the personnel department?

 

Do you have inside information so that you can tell us when Whaley agreed with Nix and when he dissented? I'm personally not privy to that stuff so I give Whaley a pass on Nix's tenure.

 

And, yep, cutting TJax and signing Williams were mistakes. Then again, trading Shep for Jerry Hughes and drafting Alonso were both very good moves. So far, early in his career, Whaley's had some hits and misses - I'm sure we both could enumerate more of each. But, all-in-all, I think the roster is getting better and I'd like to see what Whaley will do with more time.

 

BTW, calling me "clueless" doesn't add to your argument. In fact, resorting to ad hominem attacks is usually a tactic employed by people either short on facts or short on logic.

 

There's an old saying, "When a pickpocket walks down the street, all he sees is pockets." Likewise, when a football critic observes a team, all he sees are things to criticize.

 

Since Whaley has made both good and bad decisions, like most rookie GMs, I'd like to see what he does with more time. I don't think changing the FO and coaching staff every couple years makes Buffalo a desirable destination.

[Ripkord65]

I think Pegula learned from his mistake with Darcy, and not clearing house immediately with the Sabres. I believe he's going to clear house asap. The two Dougs have proven to be all but worthless and EJ is not, nor will he ever be a franchise QB.

[26CornerBlitz]

I think Pegula learned from his mistake with Darcy, and not clearing house immediately with the Sabres. I believe he's going to clear house asap. The two Dougs have proven to be all but worthless and EJ is not, nor will he ever be a franchise QB.

 

You're going to find out in eleven days just how ridiculous of a statement this really is.

[finn]

... and in that brief span, they decided that Ryan Fitzpatrick, Tarvaris Jackson and Matt Flynn weren't worthy of taking even a single preseason snap, while Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel were good enough to start a regular season game.

 

This is more or less the observation I was going to make. The two have made built a pretty good young roster, but they put all their chips on EJ and rushed him into the lineup....all while having had two--count 'em--veteran qbs on the roster, paid for and ready to go, in Jackson and Fitzpatrick. In my view, they (and Nix) have gotten nowhere near the heat they deserve for first signing Fitz to that huge contract then letting him go one year in, meaning that they have to pay him without getting his services in return. They messed up signing him, but why did they then cut him, doubling the mistake? I don't buy the "he'd be a distraction" argument, because a much more plausible explanation is right at hand: they made a mistake and wanted it to go away fast. And it worked. How often do you see this crew flamed for their appalling double mistake--I mean giving Fitz a huge contract then cutting him, burdening the franchise with enough dead money to have signed Byrd and more? Neither qb is the long-term answer obviously, but having one or both would have allowed EJ to learn from the bench--or, far, far (far) better, bought them time to bring in one or more qbs with more potential than EJ.

 

The qb position is just too important to put all your chips on one player. We've seen it a sickening number of times here, and we all know the litany. Yet this is just what these two have done. So no Fitz starting while the coaches have time to develop and evaluate one or two young prospect. No long-term plan to stockpile picks in order to move up in the next year's draft to nab a player with more potential. Whaley is praised constantly on this board for the moves he's made. But it seems to me these moves are all about his own career and making himself look good. Usually that self-interest coincides with the franchise's, but cutting Fitz, drafting a questionable "franchise" qb now versus a more sure thing later--and (doubling down) giving up two first-round picks for a wide receiver (hey, if it means the playoffs, great, if not, Whaley figures he'd be out of here anyway)... those are not the moves of a GM thinking long term and putting the franchise first. He's a talented guy, and it might be best for Pegula to sign him to a long-term contract so he can put the Bills first instead of himself.

[BillsVet]

I would say it started with Donahoe, choosing Johnson over Flutie, reaching for JP while kicking Bledsoe to the curb. But I could be wrong.

 

I'd agree.

 

Over the 14 year playoff drought, I'd say there have been 3 eras (after Butler in 2000): Donahoe (2001-05), Levy/Brandon (2006-09), and Nix/Whaley (2010-present). If they get 1 QB in that timeframe this drought doesn't happen.

[TXBILLSFAN]

Pegula will put a couple key people in the organization asap (he's already said Kim will work alongside Brandon). These folks will help him complete his evaluation of the organization and what changes he'll make after the season.

 

I'd be shocked if any of the top guys were fired before January and equally shocked if none of them were fired in January.

 

 

[Dan]

Pegula will put a couple key people in the organization asap (he's already said Kim will work alongside Brandon). These folks will help him complete his evaluation of the organization and what changes he'll make after the season.

 

I'd be shocked if any of the top guys were fired before January and equally shocked if none of them were fired in January.

Yep, there's absolutely no reason to make the changes mid-season. There are very few top candidates available because they all already have jobs. And, I agree, it'll give him time to see what changes should be made.

 

That's why this season is so critical to this team... from the FO to the Coaches to EJ and on down, everyone is essentially interviewing for their job with their performance this year.

 

For the coaches and players, it's pretty simple... win. If they do that, most of them stand a good chance of staying and probably will. Who stays and who goes very likely depends on Marrone - whether he stays or how strong his convictions are, if they ask him to replace an assistant coach. But, if this team turns ir around and wins 10 games and looks prepared and focused each week, Marrone almost certainly buys himself a couple more years. Anything less, and it's a toss up.

 

For the FO, it's a bit more nuanced. Sure winning is important, but personalities and trust are a big part of it. Does Russ stay? Whaley? You gotta think the money guy and his staff are out. So, I see some changes but necessarily a wholesale turn over of the FO. And ultimately, I think that comes down to someone that Pegula trusts (his wife) working with Brandon and company and making those determinations along the way.

 

At least that's how I see it.

[3rdand12]

Whaley .

Is no fool. He " appears" to have some mistakes already .

To decide the Nix influence and when it essentially lost its sails is a fools errand.

Safe to say this past draft is his . and the current set of players is his .

I am keeping him for at least two years ( end of next season ) . I suggest our benefactor do the same .

The rest of the staff is playing for their jobs. But they always are.

Edited September 27, 2014 by 3rdand12

[A Dog Named Kelso]

I'd agree.

 

Over the 14 year playoff drought, I'd say there have been 3 eras (after Butler in 2000): Donahoe (2001-05), Levy/Brandon (2006-09), and Nix/Whaley (2010-present). If they get 1 QB in that timeframe this drought doesn't happen.

 

I would say that the Nix era may have been worked(obtained a winning record) with Gailey had it not been for the horrid defenses. That required Fitz to play a game he wasn't equipped to play.

 

Basically, meaning that QB was no the reason for failure during that stint.

Edited September 28, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso

[BillsVet]

I would say that the Nix era may have been worked(obtained a winning record) with Gailey had it not been for the horrid defenses. That required Fitz to play a game he wasn't equipped to play.

 

Basically, meaning that QB was no the reason for failure during that stint.

 

And Buddy was responsible for switching the defense from a 4-3 coming off 2009 to a 3-4 in 2010, then back to a 4-3 in 2012. In many ways the defense was a self-inflicted thing, despite the fact they drafted heavily on that side of the ball from 2010-2012.

 

Nix also signed off on the DC hires, especially Wannstedt, who he had to have known would want to go back to a 4-3.

 

There were so many errors made during the Nix/Whaley years it's not even funny. And people wonder how the team managed to win 22 games in 4 years.

[thewildrabbit]

New ownership has got to be 1.4 billion times better, and for many, many, many reasons.

 

I expect full accountability from everyone on the coaching staff, and front office. Not to mention clarity like we have never seen. This new owner won't keep drafting RB's, DB's with the first pick every other year, and ignoring the QB position with the first draft pick for 20 years.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

And Buddy was responsible for switching the defense from a 4-3 coming off 2009 to a 3-4 in 2010, then back to a 4-3 in 2012. In many ways the defense was a self-inflicted thing, despite the fact they drafted heavily on that side of the ball from 2010-2012.

 

Nix also signed off on the DC hires, especially Wannstedt, who he had to have known would want to go back to a 4-3.

 

There were so many errors made during the Nix/Whaley years it's not even funny. And people wonder how the team managed to win 22 games in 4 years.

I do not disagree that it was mismanaged just that I do not believe that the QB position was the major reason for the losing records during Chan's time as head coach, which was the post I responding to.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

So watching the game today and thinking about how the coaching staff is handling EJ I thought what would it be like if EJ learned to scramble and play fearlessly behind Fitz. He might have learned a lot about the mental side too. I am still shocked that they dropped Fitz in favor of Kolb.

[GG]

I am still shocked that they dropped Fitz in favor of Kolb.

 

Hence the thread. The Dougs' handling of the QB position over the last two seasons has been pretty bad.

[bowery4]

Can't hide behind Nix, because Nix needed advice of his pro personnel director on who would replace Fitz if they were to cut him. That was Whaley. Don't forget the Bills signed Jackson in the spring and then decided he wasn't worthy of a training camp invite. This is the same scouting team that reportedly made a strong run at Freeman. This is the administration that thought it was a good plan to draft a raw QB to be coached by a very green OC with zero QB coaching help.

 

So yeah, I can still step away from the canvas and puke up a Jackson Pollock worthy masterpiece.

You are clueless about art, of that I am sure.

[GG]

You are clueless about art, of that I am sure.

 

No, I think this picture encapsulates EJ's play in the last two weeks

 

Edited September 29, 2014 by GG

[papazoid]

#1- QB situation - stayed ALL-IN with EJ, Thad & Tuel. brought in Orton so late missed all of camp and preseason.

 

this alone will doom the both of them.

 

#2- Traded away next years #1 draft pick. mortgaged the future.

 

#3- Traded away Stevie Johnson yet carry $10 million in salary cap DEAD MONEY.

 

#4- replaced the 70th ranked LG with the 65th ranked LG.

 

#5- stood pat at TE by resigning a mediocre receiving TE Chandler who can't block.

 

#6- got totally played by Jairus Byrd's agent. lost your ALL-Pro player for nothing in return.

 

#7- questionable 2nd round 2014 pick.

 

#8- Coaching - team undisciplined as evidenced by penalties.

 

#9- Coaching - clock and timeout mismanagement.

 

#10- Coaching - OL can't pick up stunts.

 

the two dougs are GONE after the season. Russ survives for one more year then Kim takes over.

 

 

 

 

[A Dog Named Kelso]

#1- QB situation - stayed ALL-IN with EJ, Thad & Tuel. brought in Orton so late missed all of camp and preseason.

 

this alone will doom the both of them.

 

#2- Traded away next years #1 draft pick. mortgaged the future.

 

#3- Traded away Stevie Johnson yet carry $10 million in salary cap DEAD MONEY.

 

#4- replaced the 70th ranked LG with the 65th ranked LG.

 

#5- stood pat at TE by resigning a mediocre receiving TE Chandler who can't block.

 

#6- got totally played by Jairus Byrd's agent. lost your ALL-Pro player for nothing in return.

 

#7- questionable 2nd round 2014 pick.

 

#8- Coaching - team undisciplined as evidenced by penalties.

 

#9- Coaching - clock and timeout mismanagement.

 

#10- Coaching - OL can't pick up stunts.

 

the two dougs are GONE after the season. Russ survives for one more year then Kim takes over.

 

I don't disagree with the premise but if Orton didn't want to attend camp they can not make him sign sooner.

[Dorkington]

#1- QB situation - stayed ALL-IN with EJ, Thad & Tuel. brought in Orton so late missed all of camp and preseason.

 

this alone will doom the both of them.

 

#2- Traded away next years #1 draft pick. mortgaged the future.

 

#3- Traded away Stevie Johnson yet carry $10 million in salary cap DEAD MONEY.

 

#4- replaced the 70th ranked LG with the 65th ranked LG.

 

#5- stood pat at TE by resigning a mediocre receiving TE Chandler who can't block.

 

#6- got totally played by Jairus Byrd's agent. lost your ALL-Pro player for nothing in return.

 

#7- questionable 2nd round 2014 pick.

 

#8- Coaching - team undisciplined as evidenced by penalties.

 

#9- Coaching - clock and timeout mismanagement.

 

#10- Coaching - OL can't pick up stunts.

 

the two dougs are GONE after the season. Russ survives for one more year then Kim takes over.

 

Can't disagree with any of this.

 

Which is a shame, because our defense is damned good, we have good talent at WR and RB, the rest of our OL outside the Gs looks stout... it's really just been the QB, G and TE situation that we've completely fumbled. The Dougs should be fired if we don't finish with a winning record.

[GG]

Let's bump this up. And not just because they lost, but how they lost. This team was wholly unprepared and undisciplined, again.

[26CornerBlitz]

[Kelly the Dog]

Let's bump this up. And not just because they lost, but how they lost. This team was wholly unprepared and undisciplined, again.

I really don't think the team was unprepared. We didn't start out well, but our defense outside of our #3 safety was solid for well into the third quarter. A lot of the undisciplined stuff was bull **** IMO. We lost because in the fourth quarter Brady made a bunch of plays and we made a bunch of mistakes.

 

That said, we have four winnable games in the next five weeks and a bye. If we are a contender we win 3 of 4 and are 6-4. We just are not as good as the Patriots when Brady and Gronk are on.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Kelly the Dog

[PromoTheRobot]

The five stages of Bills grief:

 

1) rage at losing

2) find those to blame

3) post about players/coaches/gm's who you'd like to see

4) all-22 film shows reason for hope

5) getting psyched for next game

[GG]

300 yards in second half is a lot more than simply saying that they were in it until the fourth quarter. One team showed up in the second half, the other didn't.