Name all the backup QBs you would rather have than Kyle Orton

[The Dean]

Fair enough point. But even 1st round QBs have a fairly low success rate in the NFL. Given the importance of the position, I was among those advocating for the Bills to draft another QB this year.

 

If Manuel crashes and burns this year, Orton will suffice as a caretaker. But we'll have to wait until next year to roll the dice in the draft again.

 

I believe Whaley thought he had the backup in Thad---perhaps he really believed Tuel was that development guy. (Really hope not, though.) That didn't work out too well for the team. Perhaps he had targeted someone in the draft (I'd be surprised if he hadn't considered a QB or two at some point). It's possible he expected to get QB X in the 4th (for example) but the guy was gone before that.

 

What I'm saying is it is speculation what exactly he tried. What we do know is what happened. I hope the Bills draft a QB somewhere next year (or acquire a young prospect somehow) after this year. Hopefully we'll have a good idea if EJ will pan out by then, so he'll know if he is looking for a development guy, or EJ's replacement. Without Thad and Tuel on the roster, next year, and with EJ having a couple years under his belt, I think there is a better chance to successfully develop a young QB.

[PastaJoe]

So you think Vick would have chosen Buffalo over NYC? No thanks to Sanchez

 

Don't know unless you try. Who thought Mario or Spikes would come here before they did. He may have thought he had a better chance of starting in Buffalo, if given the chance.

[YoloinOhio]

Don't know unless you try. Who thought Mario or Spikes would come here before they did. He may have thought he had a better chance of starting in Buffalo, if given the chance.

Apparently he doesn't want to start, according to the Jets, who said they were disappointed didn't even try to win the job. I don't know - I like Vick's talent still but he is so injury and turnover prone I can't get too excited about that.

[Fan in Chicago]

Without Thad and Tuel on the roster, next year, and with EJ having a couple years under his belt, I think there is a better chance to successfully develop a young QB.

 

I am wondering if we are going to keep only 2 QBs on the active roster. Perhaps the plan is to pull Tuel from the PS if anything untoward were to happen to EJ or Orton. Back to your point, we should have a developmental prospect now, as the #3 on the active roster. It does not serve the team well in the short term to draft said prospect next year as it will be 3-4 years before he can be any good (if at all).

Edited September 2, 2014 by Fan in Chicago

[YoloinOhio]

I am wondering if we are going to keep only 2 QBs on the active roster. Perhaps the plan is to pull Tuel from the PS if anything untoward were to happen to EJ or Orton. Back to your point, we should have a developmental prospect now, as the #3 on the active roster. It does not serve the team well in the short term to draft said prospect next year as it will be 3-4 years before he can be any good (if at all).

I was wondering the same thing. I have a feeling they will activate Tuel if EJ and Orton are both hurt. I think EJ is their developmental prospect. If they like someone enough on someone's PS right now, they could sign him to the 53 (like a Connor Shaw). Edited September 2, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[Coach Tuesday]

How do you figure that?

Fitz was on a $10M/year contract. His dead money hit was $10M. After the 2013 season it became a wash(save $10M for salary, spend $10M for dead money). Entering the 2014 season we become $5M better off(save $10M for salary, spend $5M for Orton).

 

Assuming we retain Orton in the future for $5M/year into 2015 & 2016.......that means a further saving of $5M/year. Now that the NFL usess cap rollover rules, it literally means that we will have $15M more cap room in 2016(includes having Orton) than had we kept Fitz.

 

The reality is the opposite of what you proposed.

 

Then perhaps I don't understand how it works. Fitz has a dead money hit this year of $7M from everything I've read; it's not $0. And the fact that he purportedly refused to take a paycut or restructure during the 2013 offseason (which I find dubious), does not mean he wouldn't have agreed to one this past offseason after his successor was on the roster.

 

But assuming Fitz wouldn't take a paycut or restructure, if we're paying $7M not to have Fitz here, plus $5M to have Orton, that's $12M for 2014, instead of the $10M they could've paid to Fitz. A savings of $2M that could've been applied towards Byrd.

 

Again, I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff by any means. I very well might have it wrong.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Coach Tuesday

[Best Player Available]

 

 

Which is it? For some reason or for a variety of reasons?

 

Just messing with you. I don't really buy into the "players don't want to come to Buffalo" stuff you occasionally hear. I think it was a combination of taking a "year off" from training camp and also seeing which teams express interest.

I guess what I was trying to say by the not wanting to come to Buffalo comment. Is that he was possibly waiting for a more play off ready team looking for a starter after their starter goes down. say in pre-season. When that didn't materialize he signed with the Bills as a back up. At five million for a year. i would say he did pretty darn good. I don't expect the team to pony up that again next season for a back up though. The move that late in the pre season and the cost reeks of OBD desperation IMO.

 

I don't buy OBD's he was who we wanted all along BS. he has only been available for a little over a month. Come on Doug you got sell it better than that. How about we misjudged our back up situation and are dam lucky Orton agreed to take the huge stack of money we offered. Good signing when its all said and done, who can complain with 5 days before kickoff. We got a friggin backup QB!

[Snorom]

They could've just kept Fitz, avoided the dead money hit and signed Byrd with the difference. Instead we've come full circle from Fitz with Marrone declaring "this is what we've been looking for" after his bosses paid hurricane prices on the eve of the season. These guys are really chasing right now, but ironically it's their own tails.

 

then that money would be used to pay Fitz.. Dead money or keeping Fitz doesn't change the financial situation or the Byrd scenario

Edited September 2, 2014 by Snorom

[Hplarrm]

Although I am happy Orton is here.Lets not get overly excited. he is 31 a failed starter on his what 4th team? he just fleeced the Bills for 5 million to hold a clipboard. Five Million the highest paid back up in the league. What does that tell us. For one you get paid a premium to come to Buffalo. That is the reason he's here. Not the "opprotunity" like he said to help EJ and Jeff Tuel. Give me a break Kyle. Does he make the team just by being here a franchise poised to make a playoff run? Doubtful. he ended up Being Tebows back up. But he is by far the best #2 on the team in awhile. What does that say though? Can he beat the fish twice this year if called to start?

 

is he a OK although very expensive insurance policy? absolutely. They overpaid very late in the pre season for OBD incompetence. Funny for a few mil more they would have had a 4 time pro bowl safety instead. And drafted their #2 in the second round. Sometimes Whaley makes good moves other times he makes head scratching moves. This one is the latter.

 

As for backups Again I would have grabbed one of the rookies in the draft. So there was real competition regarding the franchises future at the position. let the best man win.

 

Actually, the premium for Orton is that the Buffalo gig is a no-lose situation for him.

 

Scenario 1- EJ is great- The downside is Orton never plays, but the upside is that if EJ in fact is good this team likely competes for or even makes the playoffs Orton is not on likely gets hailed for his role in mentoring EJ (without regard to whether he did or not.

 

Scenario 2- EJ gets benched. Orton not only plays but he is running an O which has been fortified by building an OL which has 4 of 5 players which has 4 of 5 players who in the past were big and athletic enough to be considered as NFL tackles. He enjoys a WR corps featuring the much anticipated Watkins, a nicely developing Woods and a #1 physical talent but an 8th round character in Williams. Finally, he is heading a running game where the already great production of Jax and CJ augmented by Brown in case one of these two gets hurt.

 

Scenario 3- EJ goes down but Orton sucks. Oh well, but from Orton at least gets a chance but fails. This is a no lose as all one should get a chance to succeed or fail.

 

 

[symbiant]

Well that and wait for the market to develop. It's doubtful he told his wife in late July

The bIlls got a one year 5 mil offer on the table, but I want to hang with the kid and you, until

8 days before the regular season. Most GM's would not like that attitude.

I for some reason do not think Buffalo was his first choice for a variety

Of reasons.

 

It's a mix of he wanted to get paid without going through training camp.

Frankly, as a veteran and a backup -- why shouldn't he want to skip camp?

He's going to be giving half a year to the sport and his job... these guys work like crazy during the season and put their bodies through hell.

 

You can see this "attitude" with a lot of other veterans who don't really need to prove themselves... with "fake" injuries etc.

On this team, notably Byrd and Stevie Johnson. They are both doing the same thing with their new teams.

[Kelly the Dog]

I guess what I was trying to say by the not wanting to come to Buffalo comment. Is that he was possibly waiting for a more play off ready team looking for a starter after their starter goes down. say in pre-season. When that didn't materialize he signed with the Bills as a back up. At five million for a year. i would say he did pretty darn good. I don't expect the team to pony up that again next season for a back up though. The move that late in the pre season and the cost reeks of OBD desperation IMO.

 

I don't buy OBD's he was who we wanted all along BS. he has only been available for a little over a month. Come on Doug you got sell it better than that. How about we misjudged our back up situation and are dam lucky Orton agreed to take the huge stack of money we offered. Good signing when its all said and done, who can complain with 5 days before kickoff. We got a friggin backup QB!

That is basically what Marrone did say. He said that Orton was the contingency plan. The two guys they had didn't play as they had hoped so they went after Orton, starting six weeks ago. They likely saw in OTAs that Thad and Tuel had not ascended. And again as training camp went on. They also probably didn't offer 5m until recently but I don't know that. I assume they went after other guys, too. But Orton was their top choice. Marrone all but said yesterday we misjudged our backup plan and we have contingency plans for every position if guys get hurt or don't perform as expected.

[MarkAF43]

Frank Reich. Is he available?

[Manther]

I like Orton. Other backups (not saying I would prefer them over Orton) I like are Vick, Cousins and Schaub. You may be correct and Schaub could be over the hill. I like Vick a lot for a back up and someone who could MAYBE take you on his back to the playoffs.

[Coach Tuesday]

That is basically what Marrone did say. He said that Orton was the contingency plan. The two guys they had didn't play as they had hoped so they went after Orton, starting six weeks ago. They likely saw in OTAs that Thad and Tuel had not ascended. And again as training camp went on. They also probably didn't offer 5m until recently but I don't know that. I assume they went after other guys, too. But Orton was their top choice. Marrone all but said yesterday we misjudged our backup plan and we have contingency plans for every position if guys get hurt or don't perform as expected.

 

But you seem to be letting Marrone & Co. off the hook for that and I'm not sure that's right. Is the offseason really like gardening, where you stick your players in the ground and hope that when springtime rolls around, they've matured? I know that the new CBA heavily restricts what types of requirements can be imposed on players during the offseason, but still, I get the sense that training staffs and position coaches are supposed to be checking in with these guys periodically to make sure they're on track. I don't think it's acceptable that Thad (and Branch and Urbik etc.) can just fall off of a cliff during Marrone's first offseason without pinning any blame on him and his staff for letting that happen. Just seems odd to me, but admittedly I know very little about how offseason programs are supposed to work.

[kickedface]

TEBOW!!!!!!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

But you seem to be letting Marrone & Co. off the hook for that and I'm not sure that's right. Is the offseason really like gardening, where you stick your players in the ground and hope that when springtime rolls around, they've matured? I know that the new CBA heavily restricts what types of requirements can be imposed on players during the offseason, but still, I get the sense that training staffs and position coaches are supposed to be checking in with these guys periodically to make sure they're on track. I don't think it's acceptable that Thad (and Branch and Urbik etc.) can just fall off of a cliff during Marrone's first offseason without pinning any blame on him and his staff for letting that happen. Just seems odd to me, but admittedly I know very little about how offseason programs are supposed to work.

Depends on what you mean by letting them off the hook. I lambasted them here for a year and a half over Tuel, who I think doesn't belong in the NfL. I constantly bashed and questioned Whaley for his handling of the backup position when he seemed to be doing a pretty good job building a roster. I started threads proposing trades for backup QBs who aren't very good but better than ours. I bashed the backup QBs play in the games.

 

Then they finally started making moves. Palmer was terrible but he was better than we had. Now, they finally did the right thing. And they got the best guy around for the job. That doesn't at all excuse the Tuel experiment to me, but the fact is, this is their second season and we are stating the year with a good backup. The news that they have been going after Orton for six weeks makes me feel better about the fact they were not as clueless as I thought. If he would have said yes six weeks ago we wouldn't be having this conversation, although I believe, just assume, that they kept upping their offer to him as the summer of backup stink wore on.

 

I don't think you can blame Marrone for guys regressing until you see them in games this year.

[BillsBytheBay]

They could've just kept Fitz, avoided the dead money hit and signed Byrd with the difference. Instead we've come full circle from Fitz with Marrone declaring "this is what we've been looking for" after his bosses paid hurricane prices on the eve of the season. These guys are really chasing right now, but ironically it's their own tails.

Fitz left us, not vise versa.

[Coach Tuesday]

Fitz left us, not vise versa.

 

Huh? The Bills released him, he was under contract.

[Section242]

Cousins and Glennon would make the season more interesting if they're terrible.

[stevewin]

I keep having this strange feeling that something's going to happen where Orton's going to save the season for us

[YoloinOhio]

Huh? The Bills released him, he was under contract.

They released him because he chose not to restructure his contract and go elsewhere instead. They weren't going to pay him that much to be a backup, and the team had to move on at starter after the brutal season he had. If he wanted to stay as a backup, he could have done so, but not at the same price. I really don't blame him, or the team, for Fitz not being here now.

[Coach Tuesday]

They released him because he chose not to restructure his contract and go elsewhere instead. They weren't going to pay him that much to be a backup, and the team had to move on at starter after the brutal season he had. If he wanted to stay as a backup, he could have done so, but not at the same price. I really don't blame him, or the team, for Fitz not being here now.

 

I don't want to derail this thread anymore than I already have, but they absolutely mishandled that. Why declare in January 2013 that Fitz is not going to be a starter? Why not tell him and everyone else that he'll have to compete for his job, and then let him compete with EJ? If he loses out in the competition, you can approach him about a paycut and it's a much more constructive conversation. If he wins the competition, then EJ learns from him for a year, which is what they intended to happen with Kolb. There was no reason to declare that Fitz was done as the starter at that point, unless it was for the purpose of making him take a paycut (which backfired) or selling tickets (which shouldn't inform their football decisions).

 

I mean maybe what happened was that Nix got catfished into telling the world that they would be moving on from Fitz, in that phony tape-recorded conversation, and then they were boxed in. If that's the case... I can't even.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Coach Tuesday

[BillsBytheBay]

 

 

Huh? The Bills released him, he was under contract.

yea.... I'm remembering it funny for some reason... I think they asked him if he would be a back up, and he wouldn't or something. You are right, I just remember there being more to it.

 

Just looked it up. Released after he wouldn't take a pay cut.

Edited September 2, 2014 by JaxBills

[YoloinOhio]

I don't want to derail this thread anymore than I already have, but they absolutely mishandled that. Why declare in January 2013 that Fitz is not going to be a starter? Why not tell him and everyone else that he'll have to compete for his job, and then let him compete with EJ? If he loses out in the competition, you can approach him about a paycut and it's a much more constructive conversation. If he wins the competition, then EJ learns from him for a year, which is what they intended to happen with Kolb. There was no reason to declare that Fitz was done as the starter at that point, unless it was for the purpose of making him take a paycut (which backfired) or selling tickets (which shouldn't inform their football decisions).

He was just so awful. I don't think they could have made it a possibility for him to start. Similar to the Schaub situation last year in Houston.

[Coach Tuesday]

He was just so awful. I don't think they could have made it a possibility for him to start. Similar to the Schaub situation last year in Houston.

 

He has been named a starter for two teams since then. That can't be it.

[YoloinOhio]

yea.... I'm remembering it funny for some reason... I think they asked him if he would be a back up, and he wouldn't or something. You are right, I just remember there being more to it.

Well, there was also the leaked phone conversation Nix had with the TB GM where he talked about how they needed to move on from Fitz. It just wasn't meant to be.

[Coach Tuesday]

Well, there was also the leaked phone conversation Nix had with the TB GM where he talked about how they needed to move on from Fitz. It just wasn't meant to be.

 

See my edited post above. If we're sitting here scrambling to find a QB on the verge of the 2014 season because Buddy Nix got catfished some 18 months ago, that's beyond legendary.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Coach Tuesday

[YoloinOhio]

He has been named a starter for two teams since then. That can't be it.

He was a backup in TN and started because of injury. He is a starter in Houston because they have no one else. I am not saying he is terrible, but I think some forget how bad it was his last season here. Both parties needed to move on.

[BillsBytheBay]

Well, there was also the leaked phone conversation Nix had with the TB GM where he talked about how they needed to move on from Fitz. It just wasn't meant to be.

he wouldn't take a pay cut, that's what I was hung up on.

[symbiant]

he wouldn't take a pay cut, that's what I was hung up on.

 

Fitz wanted to move on and have some new scenery.

And double dip on his salary.

[John from Riverside]

I don't want to derail this thread anymore than I already have, but they absolutely mishandled that. Why declare in January 2013 that Fitz is not going to be a starter? Why not tell him and everyone else that he'll have to compete for his job, and then let him compete with EJ? If he loses out in the competition, you can approach him about a paycut and it's a much more constructive conversation. If he wins the competition, then EJ learns from him for a year, which is what they intended to happen with Kolb. There was no reason to declare that Fitz was done as the starter at that point, unless it was for the purpose of making him take a paycut (which backfired) or selling tickets (which shouldn't inform their football decisions).

 

I mean maybe what happened was that Nix got catfished into telling the world that they would be moving on from Fitz, in that phony tape-recorded conversation, and then they were boxed in. If that's the case... I can't even.

 

Because the writing was on the wall that Fitz was not the answer and Fitz still felt you was a starter in this league.......

 

The problem I have with Ryan Fitzpatrick is he comes up small when the pressure is on.....and we need a player that comes up big when the pressure is on......

 

For all of EJ's consistancies one thing he does do is pick up his game when the chips are done.....we have seen this from him before.

 

I have no idea if Orton brings that quality or not.

[GG]

He was a backup in TN and started because of injury. He is a starter in Houston because they have no one else. I am not saying he is terrible, but I think some forget how bad it was his last season here. Both parties needed to move on.

 

No they did not. That's not how good franchises are run. The Bills didn't want to pay $4 million to one back up, so they end up paying $3 million to another backup who never saw game action, only to pay another back up $5 million because he's their only option. Whether it was Nix or Whaley behind the scenes is immaterial. The Bills totally botched the QB position and are scrambling like crazy to correct it. With one hand tied behind their back.

 

They were too cavalier with Fitz, when it was obvious that he would immediately become the best available back up QB on the market, the Bills had nobody behind him on the roster, they didn't make the trade for Alex Smith, and it was the weakest draft for QBs in a decade. Those were all knowns last spring. Yet, the Bills in a huffy fit released Fitzpatrick.

[Billsguy]

Is this a trick question?

 

Kyle Orton was out of the league until some desperate team in WNY picked him up.

[Dragonborn10]

They could've just kept Fitz, avoided the dead money hit and signed Byrd with the difference. Instead we've come full circle from Fitz with Marrone declaring "this is what we've been looking for" after his bosses paid hurricane prices on the eve of the season. These guys are really chasing right now, but ironically it's their own tails.

Agreed. Fitz would have been the perfect back-up. Makes no sense. You can argue they didn't spend up to the cap anyways even with the dead money. But Fitz was better than Tuel and Lewis. If anyone disagrees they just hate Fitz and won't see him for what he is - a reasonably good playmaker who makes too many costly mistakes. Orton according to the stats makes less plays but also turns the ball over less.

[BigPappy]

Outside of Orton, of all the names I have seen, I would rather have Vinny Testaverde than any of the others.....And he hasn't played a down of football since 2007 and is 50 years old.

 

BigPappy

[YoloinOhio]

Is this a trick question?

 

Kyle Orton was out of the league until some desperate team in WNY picked him up.

He was out of the league for 2 months, by choice, while at least one team was begging him to play and the team he left wished he didn't. So not sure of your point.

[Dibs]

......

But assuming Fitz wouldn't take a paycut or restructure, if we're paying $7M not to have Fitz here, plus $5M to have Orton, that's $12M for 2014, instead of the $10M they could've paid to Fitz. A savings of $2M that could've been applied towards Byrd.

 

Again, I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff by any means. I very well might have it wrong.

 

You aren't wrong.....just not looking at the entire picture.

The numbers you give here are correct, but are only for 2014. If you add in the 2013 numbers it starts to add up.

 

In 2013, Fitz counted as a $3M dead cap hit. Had we not cut him his cap hit would have been about $10M. That is a $7M difference. The rollover cap rules mean that the extra $7M we had free under our cap last year due to cutting Fitz is directly added to the cap room we have this year......meaning that $2M saving you mentioned becomes a $5M loss($7M minus $2M).

 

The same concept of salary savings rolling over would then apply to each future year.

 

 

 

The Bills were between a rock and a hard place with regards to the Fitz contract. Due to the nature of the contract still being in the early stages, they needed Fitz to take a massive salary cut in order to justify him remaining on the roster. Even a $4M/year cut was leaving him counting as a $6M/year cost to the cap.....and the leaked Nix phone conversation made it clear that the Bills did not see Fitz as part of their long term plans.

 

On Fitz's side, he already had his large(relatively speaking) signing bonus in the bank. It then becomes a question of whether he can make more money at another team....and potentially be a starter. I don't blame Fitz at all for not taking the salary cut and forcing the Bills hand(to cut him).

 

The Fitz contract was a bad deciscion initially by the Bills. The best resolution(for the Bills and Fitz) was how things played out.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Dibs

[Coach Tuesday]

 

 

You aren't wrong.....just not looking at the entire picture.

The numbers you give here are correct, but are only for 2014. If you add in the 2013 numbers it starts to add up.

 

In 2013, Fitz counted as a $3M dead cap hit. Had we not cut him his cap hit would have been about $10M. That is a $7M difference. The rollover cap rules mean that the extra $7M we had free under our cap last year due to cutting Fitz is directly added to the cap room we have this year......meaning that $2M saving you mentioned becomes a $5M loss($7M minus $2M).

 

The same concept of salary savings rolling over would then apply to each future year.

 

 

 

The Bills were between a rock and a hard place with regards to the Fitz contract. Due to the nature of the contract still being in the early stages, they needed Fitz to take a massive salary cut in order to justify him remaining on the roster. Even a $4M/year cut was leaving him counting as a $6M/year cost to the cap.....and the leaked Nix phone conversation made it clear that the Bills did not see Fitz as part of their long term plans.

 

On Fitz's side, he already had his large(relatively speaking) signing bonus in the bank. It then becomes a question of whether he can make more money at another team....and potentially be a starter. I don't blame Fitz at all for not taking the salary cut and forcing the Bills hand(to cut him).

 

The Fitz contract was a bad deciscion initially by the Bills. The best resolution(for the Bills and Fitz) was how things played out.

 

Thanks - but what happens when you add in the Kolb contract and Tavaris Jackson signing bonus? Those were two more by-products of the botched Fitz release.

[boyst]

I cannot name too many backups now-a-days. Is Frank Reich still backing up?

[Dibs]

Thanks - but what happens when you add in the Kolb contract and Tavaris Jackson signing bonus? Those were two more by-products of the botched Fitz release.

 

 

I thought about adding that in but I am long winded enough to start with lol.

 

In the big scheme of things their costs are somewhat negligible. Kolb did cost us $2M(from memory).....so that can be added to the equation. Jackson was with the team when Fitz was here(so same either way).....Lewis was for junk money(no dead cap hit after cut).....and Tuel earns under the 53rd contract(so it doesn't count towards the cap).

 

If we include Kolb's $2M we are still better off at this point by around $3M......and if we retain Orton for the next 2 seasons at his high $5/year price, 2016 will have roughly an extra $13M to spend under the cap(than had we stuck with Fitz).

Edited September 3, 2014 by Dibs