jahbonas Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 We see now the multiple vultures who may come into bid for the Buffalo team. It seems clear now that Ralph easily could have done the following but refused to: 1- Secured a sale before his death to an owner dedicated to Buffalo 2- Secured that price for near Billion dollars for his family 3- He refused to do this - why? so the sale price might even be higher Can anyone on this board imagine being 90+ years old and not taking that deal where your family is more than taken care of AND millions of supporters are left happy for generations? Instead Ralph took the path that could jeapordize the relocation of the team but return a higher dollar and we are supposed to praise this choice? you have to be kidding me..... HOPING a Buffalo group buys and secures this team.....but this all could have been GUARANTEED for us fans AND guaranteed near billion dollar sale for his family.... yet chose not to do this.... I say shame on him...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 if he sold the team, the sale price would be taxed. Then the money would be taxed when passed down. This way, his family gets hit 1x I believe Also remember, he was also likely "planning" on living past 100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 ugh....really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 I say shame on him...... I say don't feed the troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted April 11, 2014 Author Share Posted April 11, 2014 I say don't feed the troll. So you consider allowing Toronto and other investors into a bidding process is better than avoiding a bidding process completely??? and still achieve a sale price near 1 billion??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Or Ralph could have moved the team to LA in 1997. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 So you consider allowing Toronto and other investors into a bidding process is better than avoiding a bidding process completely??? and still achieve a sale price near 1 billion??? Who said Toronto is being allowed to bid? As far as I know, the team isn't up for auction, nor will it be. The trust has the right to sell to anyone they wish, as far as anyone is aware. I'm also curious what makes you think that there aren't any plans in the works? Is it merely because you haven't heard that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 We see now the multiple vultures who may come into bid for the Buffalo team. It seems clear now that Ralph easily could have done the following but refused to: 1- Secured a sale before his death to an owner dedicated to Buffalo 2- Secured that price for near Billion dollars for his family 3- He refused to do this - why? so the sale price might even be higher Can anyone on this board imagine being 90+ years old and not taking that deal where your family is more than taken care of AND millions of supporters are left happy for generations? Instead Ralph took the path that could jeapordize the relocation of the team but return a higher dollar and we are supposed to praise this choice? you have to be kidding me..... HOPING a Buffalo group buys and secures this team.....but this all could have been GUARANTEED for us fans AND guaranteed near billion dollar sale for his family.... yet chose not to do this.... I say shame on him...... In order: Ralph has kept the Bills in Buffalo for 50+ years. He could have sold out years ago. Securing the "price" for his family prior to his death would COST his family another $200 million in tax liability. He would not have been doing them a favor. He refused to do this because he's a shrewd business person and specifically for his family. I can imagine doing exactly what he did because I'm not an idiot. No shame here at all. Good job for Ralph! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Security Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 I like security Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 In order: Ralph has kept the Bills in Buffalo for 50+ years. He could have sold out years ago. Securing the "price" for his family prior to his death would COST his family another $200 million in tax liability. He would not have been doing them a favor. He refused to do this because he's a shrewd business person and specifically for his family. I can imagine doing exactly what he did because I'm not an idiot. No shame here at all. Good job for Ralph! I tend to agree. I'm sure some of you read Ralph would have been hit with capital gains, and estate taxes if sold while alive. This would be almost half of the net worth thanks to Obama for jumping up both taxes from the previous administration. I suspect there has been a succession plan in the works for awhile, and one that would be expected to get approved by the owners. I also think this is more about pressuring NYS to pony up more money for anew stadium. What most are not discussing in the LA market is the owner would have to foot the bill for a new stadium with little coming from CA. They are the most underwater state in the union as they are worse than NY in taking, and providing so many unnecessary services. Unfortunately three of the last companies I've worked for in the last 15 years have home offices in CA so I am there often. So for a new owner, he's looking at 1 bil for the team, 1 bil for the stadium, and $200 mil for the transfer costs. Toronto is a bigger threat, but this Bon jovi thing doesn't make sense. The NFL likes having a single owner, rather than an ownership group. They want a cash heavy owner who can foot the bill, and has a large net worth. That leaves the Jacobs, and Pegula persons as lead candidates. I'm betting one of these people will have the team. I see the secrecy as driving more funds again for the new state of the art stadium. If it were really fantastic, you wonder would they ever consider a Buffalo SB. I seriously doubt it, but you would have Niagara Falls as an attraction if the stadium were built up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 yet chose not to do this.... Link? Personally, I wish I'd chosen not to open this thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bocephuz Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 If Ralph would have sold the Bills for $1 Billion while he was alive he would have had to pay roughly $400 - $500 million dollars in captial gains taxes because he would have been taxed on the gain he had above the original cost basis ($25,000) he paid for the team back in 1959. Bottom line... the Wilson family ends up with $500 million from the sale if Ralph sells while he is alive. Since he did not sell and the team went to his trust upon his death... the cost basis now shifts up to the value of the franchise at date of death ( probably $900 mil or so). So if the team sells for $1.5 Billion let's say.. then Ralph's family only pays taxes on the $600 million gain ( probably $200 - $300 million in taxes). Wilson family ends up with $1.2 Billion dollars for selling the team after his death. So you're saying Ralph is wrong for waiting until he died to sell the team and wanting his family to gain an addtional $700 million for the sale of the team?????? I think he's already done enough for WNY by agreeing to that $400 million relocation clause ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 I was as uncomfortable with Wilson's ownership and management as anybody, but I would never expect him to just sign $100's of millions to the government. I do think there should have/could have been something done to help lock in the future more, such as sell off a small piece. Maybe there is/was some sort of instruction to accompany the sale/trust. This lease agreement also seems favorable in allowing us the opportunity to keep the team. Mr Wilson also created the Bills and they have been here >50 seasons! He also was historically against relocations in the NFL. Im not going to completely sugarcoat it though. He was a colossally bad owner when it comes to a quality football team. Its the past now. The best we can do is worry on the present and future and think positively. I get excited when I think of new ownership with no black cloud of whats around the bend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 f- him ignore you Fixed. The recent report that a deal could be done as early as October suggest due diligence has been underway for some time...putting all your points into the dust bin of the interweb... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Its the past now. The best we can do is worry on the present and future and think positively. I get excited when I think of new ownership with no black cloud of whats around the bend That's the best attitude to have in my opinion. Because unless Mrs. Wilson is lurking here, there isn't anything any one of us can do about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExWNYer Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 I like security Narcissist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Anderson's Lunch Pail Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Some fan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSNBDSC Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Stayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsguy Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Toronto is still the heavy favorite to land the Bills. I would say it looks like 80% likely. The Bills remaining in Buffalo at 20%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeHateMe Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Couldn't he have just ensured a deal upon his death and not before it so it wouldn't trigger this double taxation? I think that may be what the OP is talking about? If possible that would make the most sense to avoid throwing money away and ensuring the Bills stay in town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy10 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Toronto is still the heavy favorite to land the Bills. I would say it looks like 80% likely. The Bills remaining in Buffalo at 20%. ...based on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted April 11, 2014 Author Share Posted April 11, 2014 Couldn't he have just ensured a deal upon his death and not before it so it wouldn't trigger this double taxation? I think that may be what the OP is talking about? If possible that would make the most sense to avoid throwing money away and ensuring the Bills stay in town. Amen.... and 'we people' built HIS stadium for him in 1973 (jon Bon jovi didnt)...but apparently that was not enough... If Ralph had all along built his own stadium and not asked for our moneys all along the way then I'd listen far more to the chant he can do as he wishes... However it was Ralph who demanded we build his stadium,...and demand that we have to pay for improvements to his stadium.. - he created the 'virtual partnership' with us....after all that I dont think its asking too much to have some type of stipulation that if an owner kept the team local they had first right to purchase the team for a set amount like 1 billion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Toronto is still the heavy favorite to land the Bills. I would say it looks like 80% likely. The Bills remaining in Buffalo at 20%. To think that you have taken the time to post on this website 867 times. So 80% Toronto, 20% Buffalo and 0% anywhere else? Got it. Personally, I would say 65% Buffalo, 20% LA and 15% Toronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Welp, I guess the period of mourning has officially come to a close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSNBDSC Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 (edited) Who said Toronto is being allowed to bid? As far as I know, the team isn't up for auction, nor will it be. The trust has the right to sell to anyone they wish, as far as anyone is aware. I'm also curious what makes you think that there aren't any plans in the works? Is it merely because you haven't heard that? Edited April 11, 2014 by tsnbd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellyto83TD Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 We see now the multiple vultures who may come into bid for the Buffalo team. It seems clear now that Ralph easily could have done the following but refused to: 1- Secured a sale before his death to an owner dedicated to Buffalo 2- Secured that price for near Billion dollars for his family 3- He refused to do this - why? so the sale price might even be higher Can anyone on this board imagine being 90+ years old and not taking that deal where your family is more than taken care of AND millions of supporters are left happy for generations? Instead Ralph took the path that could jeapordize the relocation of the team but return a higher dollar and we are supposed to praise this choice? you have to be kidding me..... HOPING a Buffalo group buys and secures this team.....but this all could have been GUARANTEED for us fans AND guaranteed near billion dollar sale for his family.... yet chose not to do this.... I say shame on him...... So some of you are on this same old bull **** huh? Been discussed for YEARS as to why he wouldn't do it and its OVER either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 (edited) Also in order: He's doing nothing with that $1 billion because he's dead. Just FYI. His family isn't doing anything either due to the trust. Thanks Ralph! You originally said he should do it "for his family". Either it's a good reason or not, so now choose. He should have left his family with a $200 million incremental tax liability for the fans? Not smart at all. It's irrelevant how much you CAN spend and how you spend it. Wasting money (and of that proportion) would be the work of a simpleton. If his family is allowed to be an important factor, they trump everything. Mine do for me, which I'm sure is the same for most. There is no middle ground for sure. You're just bitter because it could possibly happen in 2020 (i.e. a move). Cry in your cheerios and get over it already. Most important, Ralph doesn't owe anyone anything. Glad to see trolling is still the case here on 2BD. Couldn't he have just ensured a deal upon his death and not before it so it wouldn't trigger this double taxation? I think that may be what the OP is talking about? If possible that would make the most sense to avoid throwing money away and ensuring the Bills stay in town. Nope. That's not how it works. Any deal pre-death is still a legal binding contract which would trigger that double taxation. No way to avoid it. Thanks Obama! Edited April 12, 2014 by Beerball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Anderson's Lunch Pail Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 So for all the naysayers, if the team is sold to someone that keeps the team in Buffalo, what's going to happen to you? Will you go away? Complain about the new owners? We already hear enough complaining about real things; now we have to listen to complaining about hypotheticals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 We see now the multiple vultures who may come into bid for the Buffalo team. It seems clear now that Ralph easily could have done the following but refused to: 1- Secured a sale before his death to an owner dedicated to Buffalo 2- Secured that price for near Billion dollars for his family 3- He refused to do this - why? so the sale price might even be higher Can anyone on this board imagine being 90+ years old and not taking that deal where your family is more than taken care of AND millions of supporters are left happy for generations? Instead Ralph took the path that could jeapordize the relocation of the team but return a higher dollar and we are supposed to praise this choice? you have to be kidding me..... HOPING a Buffalo group buys and secures this team.....but this all could have been GUARANTEED for us fans AND guaranteed near billion dollar sale for his family.... yet chose not to do this.... I say shame on him...... Thank you for your uniformed, whiny rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted April 11, 2014 Author Share Posted April 11, 2014 Also in order: He's doing nothing with that $1 billion because he's dead. Just FYI. His family isn't doing anything either due to the trust. Thanks Ralph! You originally said he should do it "for his family". Either it's a good reason or not, so now choose. He should have left his family with a $200 million incremental tax liability for the fans? Not smart at all. It's irrelevant how much you CAN spend and how you spend it. Wasting money (and of that proportion) would be the work of a simpleton. If his family is allowed to be an important factor, they trump everything. Mine do for me, which I'm sure is the same for most. There is no middle ground for sure. You're just bitter because it could possibly happen in 2020 (i.e. a move). Cry in your cheerios and get over it already. Most important, Ralph doesn't owe anyone anything. Glad to see trolling is still the case here on 2BD. Nope. That's not how it works. Any deal pre-death is still a legal binding contract which would trigger that double taxation. No way to avoid it. Thanks Obama! Why is speaking against Ralph considered trolling? I have been registered here for 10 years. Glad to see you care more for ralph's immediate family so they can see $200million more when they already have a billion...that should trump the happiness of over a million people ?? If it was povery or $200 million for ralphs family I might agree.... but they already will have a billion....so they are set enough so you can also please the million followers who have supported the team for 54 years Thank you for your uniformed, whiny rant. Please enlighten me Promo of how this team is guaranteed to stay here and I will keep peace. And if its shown that Ralph made steps to not jeapordize a relocation I will keep peace. So far that has not been shown by anyone..... and if it was not done...I will not praise the person who had the opportunity to do so and refused to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Why is speaking against Ralph considered trolling? I have been registered here for 10 years. Glad to see you care more for ralph's immediate family so they can see $200million more when they already have a billion...that should trump the happiness of over a million people ?? If it was povery or $200 million for ralphs family I might agree.... but they already will have a billion....so they are set enough so you can also please the million followers who have supported the team for 54 years Please enlighten me Promo of how this team is guaranteed to stay here and I will keep peace. And if its shown that Ralph made steps to not jeapordize a relocation I will keep peace. So far that has not been shown by anyone..... and if it was not done...I will not praise the person who had the opportunity to do so and refused to do it. You can't be enlightened, people have tried, you won't listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 If Ralph would have sold the Bills for $1 Billion while he was alive he would have had to pay roughly $400 - $500 million dollars in captial gains taxes because he would have been taxed on the gain he had above the original cost basis ($25,000) he paid for the team back in 1959. Bottom line... the Wilson family ends up with $500 million from the sale if Ralph sells while he is alive. Since he did not sell and the team went to his trust upon his death... the cost basis now shifts up to the value of the franchise at date of death ( probably $900 mil or so). So if the team sells for $1.5 Billion let's say.. then Ralph's family only pays taxes on the $600 million gain ( probably $200 - $300 million in taxes). Wilson family ends up with $1.2 Billion dollars for selling the team after his death. So you're saying Ralph is wrong for waiting until he died to sell the team and wanting his family to gain an addtional $700 million for the sale of the team?????? I think he's already done enough for WNY by agreeing to that $400 million relocation clause ... Yes...and he may have very well laid out a handshake deal (obviously not guaranteed) with a buyer who is certain to be accepted by the NFL. We have no idea. He has to keep it quiet to play the tax game. Does anyone honestly think Ralph never discussed this with Goodell? I'm not saying that's a guarantee but, rather, suggesting everyone wait and see it play out. Ralph owes us nothing. That's life. We'd like to think he would be 'loyal' to us but it certainly is his right to sell to the highest bidder. I, for one, think he had a plan and we are required to see it play out. I'll gladly eat my words later if necessary but that's just my 2 pennies. Glad to see you care more for ralph's immediate family so they can see $200million more when they already have a billion...that should trump the happiness of over a million people ?? Come on. It's not chump change. You can guarantee the financial freedom of your family for eternity. An extra 200million or 500million is still that.....HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars. You'd just give it away because your family 'wouldn't want it?????' As for your bolded comment, "Glad to see you care more for strangers who engage your business than your own immediate family." Sounds pretty dumb in the converse right? Please put away the pitchfork until we see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Toronto is still the heavy favorite to land the Bills. I would say it looks like 80% likely. The Bills remaining in Buffalo at 20%. Yeah and the controlling owner of the Buffalo Bills Mary Wilson is serving on the stadium task force to trick us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Why is speaking against Ralph considered trolling? I have been registered here for 10 years. Glad to see you care more for ralph's immediate family so they can see $200million more when they already have a billion...that should trump the happiness of over a million people ?? If it was povery or $200 million for ralphs family I might agree.... but they already will have a billion....so they are set enough so you can also please the million followers who have supported the team for 54 years Please enlighten me Promo of how this team is guaranteed to stay here and I will keep peace. And if its shown that Ralph made steps to not jeapordize a relocation I will keep peace. So far that has not been shown by anyone..... and if it was not done...I will not praise the person who had the opportunity to do so and refused to do it. I don't think anything you've written is anything I would consider trolling. I think you went a little far in "shaming" Ralph Wilson. But as you continue to say, "prove to me that Ralph made steps as to not jeopardize relocation," I would simply say to you, prove to me he hasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's in My Blood Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 (edited) Toronto is still the heavy favorite to land the Bills. I would say it looks like 80% likely. The Bills remaining in Buffalo at 20%. Care to elaborate on the conclusion of your percentages? Edited April 11, 2014 by It's in My Blood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 (edited) Please enlighten me Promo of how this team is guaranteed to stay here and I will keep peace. And if its shown that Ralph made steps to not jeapordize a relocation I will keep peace. So far that has not been shown by anyone..... and if it was not done...I will not praise the person who had the opportunity to do so and refused to do it. First of all no one can say what the future will bring. However the lack of certainty does not instantly mean that there is a conspiracy afoot, like you suggest. First of all if Ralph was so greedy why did he sign a lease?? Seriously, if he is as evil and greedy as you purport then why make things harder on his estate by tying the Bills down for 6 more years? If anything that lowers the value of the Bills at auction. Second, there are committees working to find a solution to keep the Bills here that include people at all levels. People with the power to get money and make things happen. So there is an effort being made. It was reported that Ralph could not legally do what you suggest. You forget that the NFL has a say in what happens too. Ralph can want a lot of things. None of it happens if the NFL doesn't sign off. Sorry if that spoils your "woe-is-me-I'm-a-victim" narrative. Ralph did more than you want to give him credit for. It's also a good thing that most WNY'ers have an appreciation for Mr. Wilson and what he's done for the area. If I owned the Bills and more fans were like you I'd move the team. PTR Edited April 11, 2014 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExWNYer Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Toronto is still the heavy favorite to land the Bills. I would say it looks like 80% likely. The Bills remaining in Buffalo at 20%. Care to elaborate on the conclusion of your percentages? Isn't it obvious? He pulled them out of his arse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Couldn't he have just ensured a deal upon his death and not before it so it wouldn't trigger this double taxation? I think that may be what the OP is talking about? If possible that would make the most sense to avoid throwing money away and ensuring the Bills stay in town. So, get someone to agree to a locked in sale and price for the team, but the sale doesn't actually close until an event occurs which the committed buyer has no way of predicting or controlling? Yeah, I can't imagine why he didn't do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 So, get someone to agree to a locked in sale and price for the team, but the sale doesn't actually close until an event occurs which the committed buyer has no way of predicting or controlling? Yeah, I can't imagine why he didn't do that. Yeah and what reasonable buyer wouldn't promise a billion dollars to someone at an unknown time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transient Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 (edited) Thank you for your uniformed, whiny rant. Are you suggesting he is military? Police? Royal Canadian Mountie? Royal Palace Guard? Or maybe Royal PITA has a standard dress I'm not aware of. Edited April 11, 2014 by transient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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