So...What happens next?

[CodeMonkey]

Is it me, or doesn't it seem kinda coincidental that this article pops up on the front page of NFL.COM, just two days after Ralph Wilson passes away? If it was another website, I might not be as suspicious to me. An article about Eddie DeBartolo Jr wanting back in the NFL, as an owner.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/n...right-situation

Interesting timing to be sure. He certainly has the experience, the contacts, and the means to be an NFL owner again if he wanted to.

Doubt he would have much interest in keeping the team in Buffalo.

[Mr. WEO]

Actually the greatest example of what I'm talking about is the Houston Oilers moving to Tennessee. Nashville didn't have a stadium either. So they played in Memphis for 2 years while the stadium was being built.

 

San Antonio already has a stadium an NFL team could play in while a new one was being built. OKC could play in Nornam until a stadium was built.

 

Minnesota was threatening to move too until the new stadium was promised to be built.

 

The Oilers moved 16 years ago--and their new stadium was built for only $290 million (half publicly financed). Adams only moved when he had a stadium deal ready to go. Whenever Ralph wanted a better stadium form the County, the County delivered. THere was no reason for him to threaten to move.

 

Tha Alamodome is only 20years old, built with public money and sits idle for 10 years. Public money won't be put to that use again. OKC is an insignificant market that will never be able to allow a new owner to service his massive debt.

 

Anyway, you didn't answer my question. Who is going to build this new stadium in your relocation city?

 

There are lots of markets that will support an NFL team at that level. LA and Toronto would be full on corporate support alone. My guess is that Portland or San Antonio would as well.

 

Depending on team record is not only an unsustainable business plan but not appealing at all to a new owner. The Bills have gotten good support for their record but their are lots of teams in lots of sports that are full regardless of team performance. Utah Jazz, Portland Trailblazers, Calgary Flames and even the Sabres have consistent support. If you are looking only at the NFL how about the Titans or Chiefs as examples of teams that pack them in regardless of record. I tried to stay away from the obvious GB, Pittsburgh, etc...

 

This is my point. The Bills, and Chiefs have been in the same towns for 50 years. You uproot them to a town without an NFL history (especially with that franchise), you can't expect the same full house--especially with a consistently bad record.

 

LA would treat a 2-14 "LA Chiefs" team no better than they treated the Raiders. Ditto for Toronto with a perennial 6-10 "Toronto Bills" team.

[Buftex]

Interesting timing to be sure. He certainly has the experience, the contacts, and the means to be an NFL owner again if he wanted to.

Doubt he would have much interest in keeping the team in Buffalo.

 

Same here. Lets' not forget, despite his small-town roots, he made his mark in San Francisco.

 

When I posted this originally, I was forgetting that this is "49ers Dynasty Week" on the NFL Network..perhaps that is the reason for the timing...it just struck me as odd. Maybe it really was coincidental.

[NoSaint]

Is it me, or doesn't it seem kinda coincidental that this article pops up on the front page of NFL.COM, just two days after Ralph Wilson passes away? If it was another website, I might not be as suspicious to me. An article about Eddie DeBartolo Jr wanting back in the NFL, as an owner.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/n...right-situation

 

given this context i wouldnt read a ton into its timing:

 

In conjunction with NFL Network's "49ers Dynasty Week," Michael Silver spoke with former team owner Eddie DeBartolo Jr. The conversation, in which DeBartolo ponders a potential return to NFL ownership, took place prior to news breaking on the death of Buffalo Bills owner Ralph Wilson.

[BillnutinHouston]

 

 

That one's easy--create a higher demand and you be able to charge more per ticket.

 

Also, 91% full house is a sure thing in Buffalo--even with a bad team. Tell me where you think the next owner is going to move Marrone et al and guaranteed gets more paid attnedance every week, year after year, no matter how bad the team is.

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah? And which stadium would any team move to in those cities? Can you pull out a brand new NFL stadium inn any of those towns? LA still doesn't have a team because there is no stadium.

 

Based on Neilson DMA data, Oklahoma City and San Antonio have smaller TV markets than Milwaukee. Sacramento is smaller than Cleveland. No one is going to take a 1.5 -2 billion dollar gamble moving a team to one of these places.

 

 

 

 

Well then, what did you mean when you asked "how will Bills fans respond to this"?

I meant, will Bills fans decide to buy season tickets or individual game tickets in higher quantities than before as we enter new territory without Mr. Wilson at the helm? I find that to be an interesting question.

 

Personally, I've held season tickets for years now even though I can't get to many games, because I feel a loyalty to Buffalo and believe that my support helps preserve the team, in some small way. I'm curious to know if others who may have been hesitant or resistant supporters in the past, change their minds as a result of the present uncertainty.

 

I had no "argument".

[Kirby Jackson]

This is my point. The Bills, and Chiefs have been in the same towns for 50 years. You uproot them to a town without an NFL history (especially with that franchise), you can't expect the same full house--especially with a consistently bad record.

 

LA would treat a 2-14 "LA Chiefs" team no better than they treated the Raiders. Ditto for Toronto with a perennial 6-10 "Toronto Bills" team.

I guess that where we disagree is that I am saying that LA or Toronto would never have a ticket issue because of the corporate support. The stadiums will resemble New England and will be stale, filled with uneducated football fans. It will be full nonetheless. It is not a function of their football passion but more a function of market size and the corporate presence. Those cities will be at 100% capacity.

[dwight in philly]

I guess that where we disagree is that I am saying that LA or Toronto would never have a ticket issue because of the corporate support. The stadiums will resemble New England and will be stale, filled with uneducated football fans. It will be full nonetheless. It is not a function of their football passion but more a function of market size and the corporate presence. Those cities will be at 100% capacity.

certainly agree with you about new england's stadium being stale. most of the new ones are. the way they built the stadiums in baltimore, new england, cleveland is just like when they built those round cookie-cutter staduims of the 60's and 70's in cinncy, philly, atlanta..

[26CornerBlitz]

WGR: 3/27 Erie County Executive Mark Poloncarz <25:22>

[reddogblitz]

I guess that where we disagree is that I am saying that LA or Toronto would never have a ticket issue because of the corporate support.

 

Can you please explain this? How would corporate support translate into ticket sales? Most actual tickets in seats are bought by Joe Schmuck fans, not corporations. Corporations buy the suites. That's where the real money is.

 

All that corporate support didn't sell a lot of tickets to Bills games in Toronto or Raiders or Rams or Chargers games in LA. Hence the move(s).

[NoSaint]

 

 

Can you please explain this? How would corporate support translate into ticket sales? Most actual tickets in seats are bought by Joe Schmuck fans, not corporations. Corporations buy the suites. That's where the real money is.

 

All that corporate support didn't sell a lot of tickets to Bills games in Toronto or Raiders or Rams or Chargers games in LA. Hence the move(s).

 

id guess the early 90s rams/raiders may be a different beast than todays NFL, and i wouldnt call our once a year game an equivalent either.

 

major corporations get more than suites. the last company i worked for had about a dozen seasons in the lower sideline for the saints, and some good ones for the hornets/pelicans. beyond that, they tend to draw high paying jobs that create disposable income for employees that go to games. a strong economic base in the city does good things for ticket sales. of course the suites selling for several times what they would in buffalo, and having many more available to sell does help the revenue streams too.

Edited March 27, 2014 by NoSaint

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

id guess the early 90s rams/raiders may be a different beast than todays NFL, and i wouldnt call our once a year game an equivalent either.

 

major corporations get more than suites. the last company i worked for had about a dozen seasons in the lower sideline for the saints, and some good ones for the hornets/pelicans. beyond that, they tend to draw high paying jobs that create disposable income for employees that go to games. a strong economic base in the city does good things for ticket sales. of course the suites selling for several times what they would in buffalo, and having many more available to sell does help the revenue streams too.

This in a nutshell.

 

For example in OKC there are 10 companies that own over 3K lower bowl season tickets for the Thunder. That does not even get in to the executives, etc... The big market teams have pretty much run out Joe Fan NFL fan.

[Nitro]

We have debated a new stadium endlessly. Downtown location vs updating Ralph Wilson stadium. My 2 cents is this. Renovating Ralph Wilson Stadium pushes the issue down the line. The Stadium is beloved but is at the end of its life. The longer city, county, state and business leaders wait, the more the cost will grow. Either build a new stadium and keep the Bills for the foreseeable future or don't and wait for the inevitable move to Los Angeles.

[reddogblitz]

I find it interesting that the news comes out that Ralph dies and the whole football world including TBD jumps to the conclusion that the Bills have to move and can't support an NFL team. Except they have for over 50 years. The team is profitable and has no debt. How does that happen if Buffalo can't support a team? Can't they just continue on as they always have? If not, why not?

[Kirby Jackson]

I find it interesting that the news comes out that Ralph dies and the whole football world including TBD jumps to the conclusion that the Bills have to move and can't support an NFL team. Except they have for over 50 years. The team is profitable and has no debt. How does that happen if Buffalo can't support a team? Can't they just continue on as they always have? If not, why not?

The way that they have operated is fine 20 years ago. The league has just changed. Without Mr. Wilson around the organization needs to prove itself to a new ownership group as well as the current owners. On paper they are at just under 91% capacity but their revenues are high (thanks to the Toronto deal that we all hate). The reality is 91% full with bad club seat sales just doesn't jump out to a new owner.

 

The Bills have a passionate fan base and IMO are likely to remain in WNY. The same old ways though need to evolve because our security blanket has passed.

[TXBILLSFAN]

Weighing in on a few topics raised:

 

1- Bills need a new stadium if they want to remain in Buffalo long term. That doesn't mean they need to build a Jerry's World north, but a modern stadium that meets NFL standards. We can debate dome/open air, but I would prefer it in downtown Buffalo to help revitalize the city.

 

2- LA is the #1 potential market for an NFL franchise. It's 10X the size of Buffalo and probably 20X the amount of $$$. The NFL looks at potential in new markets, no market has more potential than LA. SD and Oakland would be easier moves with established fan bases already, but let's face it, winning creates fan bases. London is probably 2nd, but creates a host of other issues and Jacksonville is lobbying to "own" that market and potentially play 2 or more games there per year. Toronto is the easy "sell" for the NFL as they would perceive it as Buffalo-north and feel they still give Buffalo fans a team they could travel to see, WATCH OUT FOR TORONTO in this game for that reason--- Toronto scares the crap out of me !!

 

3- OKC is OUT because it's too close to Dallas and Jerry Jones would never support. San Antonio / Austin is actually the 15th largest TV market in the U.S. when you combine their metro areas -- Austin is only 75 miles from San Antonio --- Jones would fight to keep a team out of San Antonio, but I think at some point, owners would support, but it would be an epic battle. Portland is out due to size and proximity to Seattle (2 1/2 hours), it would cannibalize too much of Seattle's market.

 

4- This debate on Buffalo's support or lack of support for the Bills and whether fans need to change their behaviors going forward is nonsense. Buffalo supports this team as well as any other NFL city, we can argue and split hairs about % capacity, price of tickets, suite sales, the Bills buying the last 3,000 tickets, weather etc. etc. Bottom line, ask any NFL fan and they'll say the same thing. Bills fans are loyal, passionate, colorful and show up win or lose, rain, snow, sleet (and sometimes sun). Buffalo fans just need to keep doing what they've been doing for the past decade. While I am still of the opinion that fan support won't change an owner's mind if he/she wants to move team. It can never hurt and is a card that can be played to sway a relocation vote or two. Just keep doing what we've been doing. No need to start a fill the stadium campaign.

 

5- Lastly, I'm still holding out hope that Ralph put a condition in his will on the sale to find a local buyer if one exists, that would be a GIFT. A 6-year no move clause is no gift, trust me ! If the team gets sold next week to a California billionaire who wants to move the team, that 6-year "gift" will feel like the longest divorce in the history of marriages !!

Edited March 28, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN

[texasabres]

Pegula? Golisano? Bon Jovi?

Big fan of the Bon Jovi option. Living on a Prayer

[KOKBILLS]

Big fan of the Bon Jovi option. Living on a Prayer

 

You should listen to that interview 26CornerBlitz posted above with Erie County Exec Mark Poloncarz...It's at about the 9:45 mark of the interview...

 

To say there is a bit of disdain among the people in the know (at least the Erie County people) about Mr Bongiovi seems to be an understatement...Apparently he's part of the group from Toronto that wants to move the Bills...I had no idea what group Bon Jovi was aligned with, only that he was interested in buying a team...But it's pretty clear Poloncarz is not a big fan...I'm uncertain if he likes his music though...

[BillnutinHouston]

To those who want a new stadium, are you prepared to pay more in taxes to cover the public funding, and/or pay MUCH higher ticket prices to cover the owner's private funding? If the idea is that a new stadium is needed because it generates more revenue for the owner, understand that the revenue comes from YOU one way or the other.

 

Txbillsfan - your argument that Bills fans should keep doing what they're doing, i.e., that the status quo is adequate to keep the team, is a curious and in my opinion dangerous strategy for Bills fans to subscribe to. When you say "Buffalo supports this team as well as any other NFL city", what measure are you basing this on? I don't think you'd disagree that the primary measure that counts with NFL owners and investors is revenue generation, and you can't seriously argue that Buffalo generates as much as "any other NFL city". Just look at the number of empty red (club) seats at any given home game as exhibit A against your argument in favor of people doing what they've been doing. This is not a shot at Bills fans, rather a statement of the WNY economy that's largely out of Bills fans' control. But what is in the fans' control is their purchasing decisions. Given what we know about this unique and uncertain time in the franchise's history, to rally the troops to basically do "nothing special" is an odd position to take, to say the least.

 

The Poloncarz interview posted on WGR's website is highly informative and recommended for all. Especially noteworthy was Poloncarz's statement that he's been contacted by multiple parties expressing interest in buying the Bills, including parties who specifically told him that they wanted to buy the team and keep it in Buffalo. Good news, but certainly no guarantee that the winning bidder will want to keep the team in Buffalo.

[TXBILLSFAN]

To those who want a new stadium, are you prepared to pay more in taxes to cover the public funding, and/or pay MUCH higher ticket prices to cover the owner's private funding? If the idea is that a new stadium is needed because it generates more revenue for the owner, understand that the revenue comes from YOU one way or the other.

 

Txbillsfan - your argument that Bills fans should keep doing what they're doing, i.e., that the status quo is adequate to keep the team, is a curious and in my opinion dangerous strategy for Bills fans to subscribe to. When you say "Buffalo supports this team as well as any other NFL city", what measure are you basing this on? I don't think you'd disagree that the primary measure that counts with NFL owners and investors is revenue generation, and you can't seriously argue that Buffalo generates as much as "any other NFL city". Just look at the number of empty red (club) seats at any given home game as exhibit A against your argument in favor of people doing what they've been doing. This is not a shot at Bills fans, rather a statement of the WNY economy that's largely out of Bills fans' control. But what is in the fans' control is their purchasing decisions. Given what we know about this unique and uncertain time in the franchise's history, to rally the troops to basically do "nothing special" is an odd position to take, to say the least.

 

The Poloncarz interview posted on WGR's website is highly informative and recommended for all. Especially noteworthy was Poloncarz's statement that he's been contacted by multiple parties expressing interest in buying the Bills, including parties who specifically told him that they wanted to buy the team and keep it in Buffalo. Good news, but certainly no guarantee that the winning bidder will want to keep the team in Buffalo.

Houston -- I was making a generalization on Buffalo's support for the team because we've all collectively spent page after page debating the very points you are bringing up -- suite sales, price of tickets etc. etc. --- the bottom line is that fan support and passion has never been a central issue with this team staying in Buffalo and I suspect never will be if fans continue to do what they've been doing --- the issue is population and income --- 2 things fans cannot control ---- Buffalo is one of the smallest markets and is also one of the most economically depressed markets in the NFL ---- none of the other 31 owners would ever utter the words "Buffalo doesn't support their team" based on the past decade --- that was my point --- like I've said, and will say again -- fan support, passion is there -- what Buffalo doesn't have is enough people and enough people with the money to buy suites --- Edited March 28, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN

[NoSaint]

I find it interesting that the news comes out that Ralph dies and the whole football world including TBD jumps to the conclusion that the Bills have to move and can't support an NFL team. Except they have for over 50 years. The team is profitable and has no debt. How does that happen if Buffalo can't support a team? Can't they just continue on as they always have? If not, why not?

 

Go back 3 weeks to the cap jumping and reference the discussions about the long term challenges of the bills economically. It's not new, it's just an obvious discussion to rehash given the sad developments this week.

 

Add that to a new owner that may not feel loyalty to the region, and may have debt to service.... And there's a lot of questions.

 

I dont think anyone's saying buffalo absolutely can't stay afloat- I've never read a post here that if LA gets claimed by others we would end up bankrupted.... But I think its unfounded to think 1) we are untouchable 2) we aren't on a -perhaps not too -short list that might make MORE financial sense elsewhere.