Stevie Johnson should be dealt addition by subtraction

[QB Bills]

There are more teams with at least two receivers better than Stevie than there are teams on which he would be the best. So your first point is false.

 

You say 22nd highest paid receiver as if that's a good thing, even though in 2013 he finished 68th in catches, 70th in yards and 89th in TD's.

 

Sure, he was injured, but in 2012: 18th in catches, 18th in yards, 35th in TD's.

 

These since he got his contract.

 

I'd mind who you accuse of hyperbole when you make his contract out to be bargain when the issue of whether he's earned that money is arguable, at best.

 

I've said time and time again that Stevie got his mojo from the freedom Chan's offense/Fitz's style afforded him.

 

With those components eliminated, I don't think we'll 2010 numbers (his only real season of note, to date (2011 numbers virtually identical to 2012) ever again.

 

But oh, by the way, we started 2010 0-8, so, sorry if I'm a bit underwhelmed by what ANYONE did that year.

Wow. I'd love to hear which teams you're referring to.

[NoSaint]

 

Wow. I'd love to hear which teams you're referring to.

 

It's definitely not a majority of the league but Atlanta, Chicago, Denver, probably San Fran, maybe the giants, with a healthy reggie Wayne the colts.... I'm not sure how I'd place Stevie in the packers.... The eagles are another that you might hear arguments for.... Seattle(rice/Tate vs Stevie).... Whether you weigh price, age, health.... look at last year vs forecast next year (free agents moving)... All could change those.

 

Stevie's probably at the better end of the bottom third of #1s (ie close to 20) or the middle of the top 10 #2s, so big cats statement isn't tooooo far off (that he's a #1 on very few rosters and a #3 on a few)

Edited February 15, 2014 by NoSaint

[NDBUFFCUSEFAN]

There is no point to arguing with certain posters on this topic since they are so dug in on their position they refuse to listen to anything else and that is why I don't bother defending Stevie against them.

 

Cutting SJ13 with the contract he has is pretty awful.

 

Trading SJ13 for a couple late picks is pretty awful.

 

Trading SJ13 for a couple mid picks is pretty awful.

 

The Bills are not getting a 1st or 2nd and a 3rd seems pretty meh when you consider Stevies past production and the current state of the WR group.

 

Keep SJ13, draft Watkins and you have #1 Watkins #2 SJ13 #3 Woods #4 Goodwin #5 Graham #6 Easley, that is the start of a solid unit.

[3rdand12]

Moore has already addressed his perspective on Stevie in the press. Sounds like he is going to make a project of him . get him back to form I hope . Stvie looked as bad as the rest of the receivers this year on the Bills.

I am still frustrated with Chandlers key drop !

[yungmack]

From reading through this thread and the other 8000 "Cut SJ13" threads, it has finally penetrated my thick head that there are some people who just plain don't like ol' Stevie. Some call them "Stevie Haters" which seems harsh. May be it's accurate but harsh still. Because another a light is slowly warming up in my -- as previously noted -- thick head: the Haters aren't so much haters as they are innocents, unexposed to the wider world of the NFL. They must not watch other teams or, if they do, their minds must wander. Because, and I know this will be shocking, every receiver in the NFL drops passes -- some at critical times even!!! -- and every receiver sometimes fumbles. I know, I know, it's crazy. But it's true.

 

Somewhere around here in the last few months, someone posted the stats on all the receivers: number of passes, number of catches, number of drops, number of fumbles. I wonder if one of the Stat Monsters might be able to post that again.

 

And here's a project for these dull days of winter, especially for those Innocents who haven't watched other team's receivers with the kind of intensity they've devoted to SJ: Watch the ALL 22 or other video of all the games of 4 receivers. I'll give you two, Megatron and Larry Fitzgerald. You pick two others. Watch them carefully then report back. I can already picture the Innocents, eyes wide as the moon, faces chalkened in shock, muttering "They all drop passes, they all drop passes, they all drop passes."

[thebandit27]

From reading through this thread and the other 8000 "Cut SJ13" threads, it has finally penetrated my thick head that there are some people who just plain don't like ol' Stevie. Some call them "Stevie Haters" which seems harsh. May be it's accurate but harsh still. Because another a light is slowly warming up in my -- as previously noted -- thick head: the Haters aren't so much haters as they are innocents, unexposed to the wider world of the NFL. They must not watch other teams or, if they do, their minds must wander. Because, and I know this will be shocking, every receiver in the NFL drops passes -- some at critical times even!!! -- and every receiver sometimes fumbles. I know, I know, it's crazy. But it's true.

 

Somewhere around here in the last few months, someone posted the stats on all the receivers: number of passes, number of catches, number of drops, number of fumbles. I wonder if one of the Stat Monsters might be able to post that again.

 

And here's a project for these dull days of winter, especially for those Innocents who haven't watched other team's receivers with the kind of intensity they've devoted to SJ: Watch the ALL 22 or other video of all the games of 4 receivers. I'll give you two, Megatron and Larry Fitzgerald. You pick two others. Watch them carefully then report back. I can already picture the Innocents, eyes wide as the moon, faces chalkened in shock, muttering "They all drop passes, they all drop passes, they all drop passes."

I used to be the guy that refuted these arguments with stats and facts...I just don't have the patience any more. It doesn't change anyone's opinion.

 

I also agree regarding Fitz and Megatron. I can think of two game-winning passes off the top of my head that Megatron has dropped: the infamous Chicago drop and the pass that bounced off his chest for an INT at the 2 yard-line with 0:20 left in the 4th Q against TB this year.

 

There's just no point though...when someone's mind is made up, they aren't going to consider anything that may be presented that opposes their mindset.

[yungmack]

I used to be the guy that refuted these arguments with stats and facts...I just don't have the patience any more. It doesn't change anyone's opinion.

 

I also agree regarding Fitz and Megatron. I can think of two game-winning passes off the top of my head that Megatron has dropped: the infamous Chicago drop and the pass that bounced off his chest for an INT at the 2 yard-line with 0:20 left in the 4th Q against TB this year.

 

There's just no point though...when someone's mind is made up, they aren't going to consider anything that may be presented that opposes their mindset.

I know, I've relied on your posts, and on Mrags as well. On the plus side, it seems that most posters know what they're talking about.

[BADOLBILZ]

I'm gonna say it. I TRULY HOPE that Stevie gets traded. Not because I think he's bad. Bad for this team. Or overrated.

 

I want Stevie to be traded to a solid team with a serious chance to win a ring and show everyone how good he really is. Stevie on a team like Carolina, New England, or San Fran would be a sure pro bowler.

 

Good riddance Stevie. Good luck making all the idiot fans in Buffalo eat their words.

 

I don't agree with trading him but I agree that he would be a better player on a team with genuine star talent leading the way so that he could fill the job of flaky but very productive WR.

 

I think he has a dual problem as a Buffalo Bill and both relate to his "status" as a leader/#1 receiver.

 

First: I think he feels that he can set his own pace in terms of conditioning in the offseason because he is THE MAN in Buffalo. That leads to a lot of nagging injuries, IMO. I think he would get right in step and work much harder in a more competitive environment with both higher expectations and players and coaches who command respect because of past success. A healthier Stevie is a more productive Stevie.

 

And second, while he sees himself as a leader in Buffalo, at the same time being a leader is more pressure than he can handle on the field. His penchant for mistakes in the clutch is 100% mental and 100% self imposed. In a perceived lesser role I think you would see much better performance in the clutch.

 

In the end, it's not completely unlike the Whitner situation.....Donte wasn't the type of talent/personality that could shoulder a leadership role on a young team trying to escape years of losing. But he is a very good fit as a toady behind a front 7 full of bullies.

[....lybob]

I'd trade any player on the Bills if the the other side of the trade was good enough, no one has shown me this with Stevie Johnson

 

I'd cut any player if someone could show me the how the cap savings could lead to picking up a better player, cap savings of cutting SJ is 25 thousand this year- bills are 19 mil under the cap now and by cutting Kolb and Pears could be 25mil under the cap- I see no advantage of cutting SJ

 

I be for trading/cutting SJ If someone could prove that SJ was hurting the development of WRs who are just as good as SJ now and have higher future upside- so someone make the case That Woods, Goodwin, Graham, and lets say Ramses Barden are all as good or better than SJ now

[3rdand12]

I'd trade any player on the Bills if the the other side of the trade was good enough, no one has shown me this with Stevie Johnson

 

I'd cut any player if someone could show me the how the cap savings could lead to picking up a better player, cap savings of cutting SJ is 25 thousand this year- bills are 19 mil under the cap now and by cutting Kolb and Pears could be 25mil under the cap- I see no advantage of cutting SJ

 

I be for trading/cutting SJ If someone could prove that SJ was hurting the development of WRs who are just as good as SJ now and have higher future upside- so someone make the case That Woods, Goodwin, Graham, and lets say Ramses Barden are all as good or better than SJ now

Cold cold hearted man. You must be a CEO or something

 

From reading through this thread and the other 8000 "Cut SJ13" threads, it has finally penetrated my thick head that there are some people who just plain don't like ol' Stevie. Some call them "Stevie Haters" which seems harsh. May be it's accurate but harsh still. Because another a light is slowly warming up in my -- as previously noted -- thick head: the Haters aren't so much haters as they are innocents, unexposed to the wider world of the NFL. They must not watch other teams or, if they do, their minds must wander. Because, and I know this will be shocking, every receiver in the NFL drops passes -- some at critical times even!!! -- and every receiver sometimes fumbles. I know, I know, it's crazy. But it's true.

 

Somewhere around here in the last few months, someone posted the stats on all the receivers: number of passes, number of catches, number of drops, number of fumbles. I wonder if one of the Stat Monsters might be able to post that again.

 

And here's a project for these dull days of winter, especially for those Innocents who haven't watched other team's receivers with the kind of intensity they've devoted to SJ: Watch the ALL 22 or other video of all the games of 4 receivers. I'll give you two, Megatron and Larry Fitzgerald. You pick two others. Watch them carefully then report back. I can already picture the Innocents, eyes wide as the moon, faces chalkened in shock, muttering "They all drop passes, they all drop passes, they all drop passes."

No you are wrong. dead wrong . Stevie has failed me personally. He was supposed to show up for autographs with Fred around here. And he never showed up. and then dismissed it .

I mean i wasnt going or anything but..still.

[KOKBILLS]

tim graham being interviewed by bleacher report about cutting stevie johnson to make the team better.... its a perfect storm of terrible.

 

 

Point taken...

[reddogblitz]

When you're a 4 - 12 team, a guy drops a game winner over a perennial playoff team, not such a big deal. Helped us in the draft actually. Or a 6 - 10 team and he drops one against the Patsies with the lead in the 4th quarter killing a drive or one against the Falcons in FG range, not such a huge deal. We'd be 8-8 if we win both of those. Big deal.

 

However, if we're where we want to be this year at 9-6 going into the last game with a shot at ending the playoff drought and he drops one, then it's big. Does Coach Marrone, who has seen 2 big drops this year plus others want to chance that? I'm not so sure he does. I'm not.

 

Of course this depends on getting some other good WRs which hopefully we do this off season.

 

As far as how much we missed him when he was out this year, I know we beat Ravens without him and I think the Jets too.

 

I don't hate SJ, I just hate the crunch time drops.

[ALF]

If another team would make us an offer we can't refuse. He does run great routes and can get open (for a top QB to hit) If we traded SJ13 I would be ok with taking a WR at 9, like Mike Evans at 6'5", we need a big target like a Megatron.

Edited February 16, 2014 by ALF

[Bill from NYC]

When you're a 4 - 12 team, a guy drops a game winner over a perennial playoff team, not such a big deal. Helped us in the draft actually. Or a 6 - 10 team and he drops one against the Patsies with the lead in the 4th quarter killing a drive or one against the Falcons in FG range, not such a huge deal. We'd be 8-8 if we win both of those. Big deal.

 

However, if we're where we want to be this year at 9-6 going into the last game with a shot at ending the playoff drought and he drops one, then it's big. Does Coach Marrone, who has seen 2 big drops this year plus others want to chance that? I'm not so sure he does. I'm not.

 

I totally see your point, but I can't say that I fully agree.

 

When the Bills make bonehead plays such as the pair of drops by SJ and Chandler, it cements our image of being a laughing stock of the NFL. A bunch of clowns.

 

One good thing about being a Bills Fan is that we truly appreciate wins! I shouldn't care as much as I do (this probably applies to most posters imo), but I am literally thrilled after a Bills win, even if it comes against another lousy team. 8-8, to me, is WAY different than 6-10 because we have not seen .500 in much longer than I care to recall.

 

The Bills enter this season with a completely unproven coach and a QB who at this point looks about the same as his backup. We simply cannot afford to give away games.

 

 

[1billsfan]

If another team would make us an offer we can't refuse. He does run great routes and can get open (for a top QB to hit) If we traded SJ13 I would be ok with taking a WR at 9.

 

Do you honestly believe that another NFL team is going to trade for Stevie Johnson and his almost 9 million dollar a year contract? The probability of that happening is zero percent.

 

Don't get fooled into believing fantasy scenarios cooked up by hack Bills reporters. Stevie's huge contract has been pointed out many times in this thread yet 7 pages later fans are discussing it like it still might happen.

[JM57]

Its just not going to happen this season. Its poor cap management. Cutting him now saves them only 25,000 toward the cap, meaning they would still have to pay him 8.475 million. Before the 2015 season, that changes to like 3.2 million in savings/5.65 in dead money, which is slightly more palatable.

 

 

[simpleman]

How about going this direction in the discussion.

 

If you think Buffalo would be better without Stevie.

 

Show us a specific path how the team could be better.

 

A third round draft pick has repeatedly been tossed around in the thread. Okay, what wide receiver/TE available in the draft in the third do you believe will make us a better team this year than with Stevie? What WR/TE in the third has a reasonable possibility of a bigger possible upside than Stevie does for the future?

 

If we were able to trade Stevie and use the pick on another position, what FA would you use his saved cap money to replace him that would at least be as good as Stevie?

 

I'm looking for specifics here, real names and players. What are the real options.

 

Just cutting him gives us no players to replace him and saves us virtually no cap dollars, so I don't see that as a real option.

 

Show us how subtracting Stevie adds or makes the Bills a better competitor this year.

 

Understand I am neutral here, I'm looking to see a clear path how it makes the team better. Which is all I want as a fan.

[stony]

If another team would make us an offer we can't refuse. He does run great routes and can get open (for a top QB to hit) If we traded SJ13 I would be ok with taking a WR at 9, like Mike Evans

 

Creating a hole, when we have others to fill is not how we return to the playoffs.

 

Good teams can use this strategy, but we're no there yet.

[simpleman]

Do you honestly believe that another NFL team is going to trade for Stevie Johnson and his almost 9 million dollar a year contract? The probability of that happening is zero percent.

 

Don't get fooled into believing fantasy scenarios cooked up by hack Bills reporters. Stevie's huge contract has been pointed out many times in this thread yet 7 pages later fans are discussing it like it still might happen.

 

The other thought in my mind is, if we traded Stevie and somehow replaced him with a FA WR we thought was a better value than him. Why wouldn't the other team simply grab that other player themselves, since he was a better value than Stevie?

[SRQ_BillsFan]

IM still waiting for more Pros. All you homers can come up with is that he is a good guy and wants to stay in Buffalo! This is found on page 1 of Players interview manuel. "Love the city you play for, you are making millions!" No one answered the question...Did the Bills miss Stevie Johnson when he was injured this year???

 

 

There is no doubt that Doug Marrone would say "YES" without a doubt.

 

That's the only opinion that matters.