Buddy Nix and addressing the QB position

[GG]

kelly nailed what i was getting at - if he had traded good picks for a bad backup and given him a nice contract, then brought over his OCs qb of choice, chased after kevin kolb then overpaid another backup who got benched for a midround rookie... the board would be calling him a crazy old man thats just throwing resources at the wall and seeing if anything sticks. carroll is certainly ahead right now in the head to head though.

 

if buddy drafts his franchise qb this year, the tune will change quickly. im running short on patience too, so i certainly understand. hes here for this free agency and draft though, so im hoping that his grand scheme comes together.

 

You mean like the previous regimes who traded two first round picks for two QBs who failed, used a day 1 pick on a QB who was deemed the starter and then failed, and went out to sign the best available backup on the market at the time, who miraculously became the franchise QB? And thus it was deemed that the search was over. Donahoe inherited a far bigger mess and roster than Buddy, yet he never wavered from what the team's top priority should be.

[NewEra]

 

 

Pete Carroll took his starting Qb, MAtt Hasselbeck, to the Div title game after beating defending SB champs GB (despite being a 7-9 team).

 

He had picked up Whitehurst as a backup and potential replacement to Hasselbeck. When that didn't look likely, he brought in Jackson after getting rid of Hasselbeck. This got them another 7-9 season but no playoffs.

 

He then unloaded TJ and the Bills thought enough of him to pick him up. He brought in the highly regarded backup Matt Flynn. Despite this, he also picked Wilson.

 

Buddy already had Fitz on the roster when he rolled off the hay wagon as GM in Buffalo. Subsequently he would draft and release Levi Brown, sign and release Vince Young and trade for, but never suit up Jackson.

 

As anyne can see, the activity of these two individuals (Nix and Carroll) in regard to constantly looking to improve and upgrade the position of QB are polar opposites. Carroll was constantly looking to improve. Buddy did absolutely nothing. Your comparison couldn't be less supportive of your argument.

 

You've brought this up in several other threads. Why did it suddenly strike you to bring it up again in it's own thread? Just curious.

 

They beat defending champion New Orleans Saints

[Kelly the Dog]

Pete Carroll took his starting Qb, MAtt Hasselbeck, to the Div title game after beating defending SB champs GB (despite being a 7-9 team).

 

He had picked up Whitehurst as a backup and potential replacement to Hasselbeck. When that didn't look likely, he brought in Jackson after getting rid of Hasselbeck. This got them another 7-9 season but no playoffs.

 

He then unloaded TJ and the Bills thought enough of him to pick him up. He brought in the highly regarded backup Matt Flynn. Despite this, he also picked Wilson.

 

Buddy already had Fitz on the roster when he rolled off the hay wagon as GM in Buffalo. Subsequently he would draft and release Levi Brown, sign and release Vince Young and trade for, but never suit up Jackson.

 

As anyne can see, the activity of these two individuals (Nix and Carroll) in regard to constantly looking to improve and upgrade the position of QB are polar opposites. Carroll was constantly looking to improve. Buddy did absolutely nothing. Your comparison couldn't be less supportive of your argument.

 

You've brought this up in several other threads. Why did it suddenly strike you to bring it up again in it's own thread? Just curious.

Carroll inherited Hasselback so there was no decision. He struck out badly on his first choice, he struck out badly on his second choice, he got nothing from his third choice but an expensive risky unknown back-up (who could be decent but was a waste they will likely get rid of, although I wouldn't). Now he is a genius. THIS ISN'T ABOUT ACQUIRING QUARTERBACKS, IT IS ABOUT EVALUATING QUARTERBACKS.

 

As NoSaint pointed out, Nix was directly involved in selecting Brees and Rivers. As well as not taking the risk of Michael Vick (but got LT and Brees instead). he could totally tank on his choice in this draft, but he might not, based on his previous record, and based on the fact that present geniuses misfire a lot before they become overnight sensations.

 

I personally have no idea if he will knock it out of the park this time or not. I don't really like any of his options, at least right now.

[GG]

As NoSaint pointed out, Nix was directly involved in selecting Brees and Rivers. As well as not taking the risk of Michael Vick (but got LT and Brees instead). he could totally tank on his choice in this draft, but he might not, based on his previous record, and based on the fact that present geniuses misfire a lot before they become overnight sensations.

 

I personally have no idea if he will knock it out of the park this time or not. I don't really like any of his options, at least right now.

 

Wait one second. Just one second.

 

From what we know of AJ Smith and Buddy Nix, do you for a split second believe that it was Buddy who pulled the trigger on the Vick deal and the Rivers/Eli Manning deal?

 

Please.

[Mr. WEO]

Carroll inherited Hasselback so there was no decision. He struck out badly on his first choice, he struck out badly on his second choice, he got nothing from his third choice but an expensive risky unknown back-up (who could be decent but was a waste they will likely get rid of, although I wouldn't). Now he is a genius. THIS ISN'T ABOUT ACQUIRING QUARTERBACKS, IT IS ABOUT EVALUATING QUARTERBACKS.

 

As NoSaint pointed out, Nix was directly involved in selecting Brees and Rivers. As well as not taking the risk of Michael Vick (but got LT and Brees instead). he could totally tank on his choice in this draft, but he might not, based on his previous record, and based on the fact that present geniuses misfire a lot before they become overnight sensations.

 

I personally have no idea if he will knock it out of the park this time or not. I don't really like any of his options, at least right now.

 

It is about evaluating QBs. AND aquiring them. Nix didn't draft Rivers. He ended up with Rivers (Manning was a no brainer). Carroll inherited Hassellbeck, then dumped him, even adter riding to the Div champ game. Buddy inherited Trent, agreed with Chan that they were all set. Then he dumped Trent after a whopping 2 games. Then he agreed with Chan for the next 3 seasons that Fitz needed no competition from a draftee. He thought Wilson, despite his years of impressive college play (and despite a significant need at QB) was too short to blow a 3rd round pick on! Yet he had no problem seeing a better value in a track athlete turned marginal WR.

 

It IS about evaluating QB talent--and unlike Carroll, who was always looking for improvement ( he didn't wait for anyone to get injured before he figured out his new rookie QB was a natural--in week 3 of preseason!). Buddy wouldn't even let Chan suit up Jackson because he was afraid it would cost hima 6th rounder (from a 7th).

 

Again, these 2 could not be more dissimilar in how they evaluate and aquired their QBs. And really, Buddy has made so many blunders, why do you need to quibble with this one?

[Kelly the Dog]

Wait one second. Just one second.

 

From what we know of AJ Smith and Buddy Nix, do you for a split second believe that it was Buddy who pulled the trigger on the Vick deal and the Rivers/Eli Manning deal?

 

Please.

No, I don't believe that at all. I do believe that his scouting reports and evaluations on Vick, Brees, and LT, and probably others, had an influence on the sequence of events, and was likely part of the reason they chose Brees, Manning, and Rivers over different players talked about at that time. I don't know exactly what happened at all but no, of course I don't think he was even close to any trigger. Vick, for example, was probably traded more for the Chargers not being able to strike a pre-draft deal with him than anything else. But I also would think that the scouting reports from anyone (not talking Nix here but anyone on any team in charge of scouting) would have a significant influence on whether they need to keep this guy at all costs, or trade him and pick up another QB in the second round. All they had at the time was Flutie I think.

[Green Lightning]

 

Hey Genius, in 2010, the 49ers went 6-10 in the weakest division in football and fired their head coach. So they must have had a few other holes to fill when they drafted Kaepernick in the 2011 draft. Next time, please pick an argument that can't be debunked so easily.

 

Hey genius, a better coach turned around the team with mostly the same personnel and QB they had in 2010. If your arms are too short to box, stop picking fights.

[NoSaint]

 

 

It is about evaluating QBs. AND aquiring them. Nix didn't draft Rivers. He ended up with Rivers (Manning was a no brainer). Carroll inherited Hassellbeck, then dumped him, even adter riding to the Div champ game. Buddy inherited Trent, agreed with Chan that they were all set. Then he dumped Trent after a whopping 2 games. Then he agreed with Chan for the next 3 seasons that Fitz needed no competition from a draftee. He thought Wilson, despite his years of impressive college play (and despite a significant need at QB) was too short to blow a 3rd round pick on! Yet he had no problem seeing a better value in a track athlete turned marginal WR.

 

It IS about evaluating QB talent--and unlike Carroll, who was always looking for improvement ( he didn't wait for anyone to get injured before he figured out his new rookie QB was a natural--in week 3 of preseason!). Buddy wouldn't even let Chan suit up Jackson because he was afraid it would cost hima 6th rounder (from a 7th).

 

Again, these 2 could not be more dissimilar in how they evaluate and aquired their QBs. And really, Buddy has made so many blunders, why do you need to quibble with this one?

 

im going to wonder around in a bit of a stream of thought here, instead of a tightly written post... so bear with me....

 

they are very dissimilar, and carroll is VERY lucky he didnt end up stepping in a bigger mess, like beating out arizona in a kolb sweepstakes or actually going with flynn who i think wouldve been a huge flop (and likely wouldve probably started week one and then wouldve been much harder to bench without an injury)....

 

its two very different approaches, (carrolls is almost collegiate in handing out a lot of scholarships) but i dont think you can say carrolls is exactly perfect. its gotten a lot of GMs canned quickly and wasted a lot of time in a lot of cities to just jump on anything that comes available. he seems to have gotten in right here. hes been gifted with a patient owner in that regard too.

 

both approaches can work (assuming nix will at some point pull the trigger) and both can fail miserably.

 

one thing that is an important distinction is that nix is a GM and not a coach, so while he does have some say on sunday - it isnt entirely apples to apples.

 

nix has missed some opportunities, carroll missed on some guys - hopefully nix hits on one in april. really thats what it will all come down to as hes getting another shot (which is a lot of patience from above, as has been afforded carroll)-- ultimately i think this is the true lesson. both have missed repeatedly both got extra shots, pete made good on his, buddy hopefully will too but hasnt yet.

 

 

No, I don't believe that at all. I do believe that his scouting reports and evaluations on Vick, Brees, and LT, and probably others, had an influence on the sequence of events, and was likely part of the reason they chose Brees, Manning, and Rivers over different players talked about at that time. I don't know exactly what happened at all but no, of course I don't think he was even close to any trigger. Vick, for example, was probably traded more for the Chargers not being able to strike a pre-draft deal with him than anything else. But I also would think that the scouting reports from anyone (not talking Nix here but anyone on any team in charge of scouting) would have a significant influence on whether they need to keep this guy at all costs, or trade him and pick up another QB in the second round. All they had at the time was Flutie I think.

 

yup - no idea - given the region it stands to reason he was likely the primary scout on manning and rivers and had a lot of input in the evaluations that led to decisions for instance.

Edited January 25, 2013 by NoSaint

[Mr. WEO]

im going to wonder around in a bit of a stream of thought here, instead of a tightly written post... so bear with me....

 

they are very dissimilar, and carroll is VERY lucky he didnt end up stepping in a bigger mess, like beating out arizona in a kolb sweepstakes or actually going with flynn who i think wouldve been a huge flop (and likely wouldve probably started week one and then wouldve been much harder to bench without an injury)....

 

its two very different approaches, (carrolls is almost collegiate in handing out a lot of scholarships) but i dont think you can say carrolls is exactly perfect. its gotten a lot of GMs canned quickly and wasted a lot of time in a lot of cities to just jump on anything that comes available. he seems to have gotten in right here. hes been gifted with a patient owner in that regard too.

 

both approaches can work (assuming nix will at some point pull the trigger) and both can fail miserably.

 

one thing that is an important distinction is that nix is a GM and not a coach, so while he does have some say on sunday - it isnt entirely apples to apples.

 

nix has missed some opportunities, carroll missed on some guys - hopefully nix hits on one in april. really thats what it will all come down to as hes getting another shot (which is a lot of patience from above, as has been afforded carroll)

 

Carroll isn't perfect. But he was always looking to improve. Buddy did nothing to improve. After 3 bad seasons, his starting QB is, at this time, the same. Wilson wasn't a bolt from the blue.

 

Buddy has no "appraoch" (inaction isn't much of one, anyway). Carroll had a "patient owner", but has there ever been a more "patient" (actually, inattentive/apathetic/nonchalant) owner in the NFL over the past dozen years??

 

Now some want to give Buddy for his future QB pick! Hey! Give him a ribbon and some orange slices for participating folks! I also here he is thinking of buying some of that Microsoft stock!

 

 

And not being a coach should not have prevented Buddy form seeing what 90% of the laymen here saw--that we should have drafted a QB every year.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Carroll isn't perfect. But he was always looking to improve. Buddy did nothing to improve. After 3 bad seasons, his starting QB is, at this time, the same. Wilson wasn't a bolt from the blue.

 

Buddy has no "appraoch" (inaction isn't much of one, anyway). Carroll had a "patient owner", but has there ever been a more "patient" (actually, inattentive/apathetic/nonchalant) owner in the NFL over the past dozen years??

 

Now some want to give Buddy for his future QB pick! Hey! Give him a ribbon and some orange slices for participating folks! I also here he is thinking of buying some of that Microsoft stock!

 

 

And not being a coach should not have prevented Buddy form seeing what 90% of the laymen here saw--that we should have drafted a QB every year.

 

not trying to give him credit for a pick he hasnt made. simply saying that he has another shot and hopefully he makes good on it. i dont love it, but its the reality of the situation and i hope he does well with it.

 

like the post said carroll missed on guys, buddy missed on opportunities - both missed a lot but carrolls last swing looks like a hr. looks like buddy is down to his final strike here and we will see what he does with it.

Edited January 25, 2013 by NoSaint

[thewildrabbit]

I said no offense because I respect your opinion and I didn't want you to think I was asking in a negative way. I just didn't grasp the point of the thread. That being said, everyone swings and misses. It took Carroll a few swings until he hit. It usually takes everyone a few swings before they get a hit. Some strikeout before they get that hit. It looks as if nix is trying to hit a walk off as I believe he will be gone after this draft. i'm not sure point of my post....lol

Exactly, because Pete Carroll is the HC & GM and great coaches who don't have the ability to make a great QB like Bill Walsh or the eye for evaluational of a great QB like Bill Polian then you have to go thru a progression of players until you find the right guy.

 

Buddy Nix stated he didn't bring in any QB's because he didn't think that any rookies would have survived behind that podunk O line until he found a decent LT in Glenn, and he was right! My personnel take is that O line still isn't where it needs to be to be able to start a rookie QB.

 

I believe the crux of the matter is that Buddy believe Chan when he told him that he could win with Fitz, so he turned his attention elsewhere because this team had so many holes.

 

When Fitz put the lie to that, Buddy put his buddy out on the street.

 

Now without question, he knows he's got to get a QB.

Clearly this was the reason why the Bills had no interest in Peyton Manning as a free agent.

 

The biggest problem is that if Nix is this shrewd talent evaluator then how did he miss on Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick, Russell Wilson or not even attempting to bring a half way decent rookie QB in for Gailey to groom the last 3 years.

 

Looking back over the last 3 years of drafting I don't see how anyone could be hopeful about anyone that Nix pulls the trigger on. Spiller was all Gailey, and other then that one pick I don't see the bills making better picks in the top 10 then the Patriots do it the latter part of the draft.

 

I sure hope the combination of Whaley / Marrone do better then Gailey / Nix.

[Mr. WEO]

not trying to give him credit for a pick he hasnt made. simply saying that he has another shot and hopefully he makes good on it. i dont love it, but its the reality of the situation and i hope he does well with it.

 

like the post said carroll missed on guys, buddy missed on opportunities - both missed a lot but carrolls last swing looks like a hr. looks like buddy is down to his final strike here and we will see what he does with it.

 

The point was that Carroll was always swinging. Buddy never put himself in the lineup. And the fact that he has another shot is cold comfort--the pickings are slim. I don't believe that Brandon is allowing him to make any final decisions anyway.

[KOKBILLS]

you not looking at the holes this roster had....again the only reason he ended up in San Fran was they don't have the lack of talent Buffalo does- so they take a flyer on Kaepernick if it doesntr work no one cares or remembers. Not fair

 

I'm looking at everything believe me...

 

It's plenty fair...This is exactly how to judge a GM in the Draft...No GM should value a speed WR in the 3rd Round, or a CB who may have to slide to Safety in the 2nd, over the QB position unless you have one heck of a good QB in the stable...QB is the most important position on ANY team...Everyone knows that...And you can't ignore the position in the Draft, especially when your QB is average at best and your back-up's suck...

 

San Fran was coming off a crap season when they Drafted Kaepernick, and they already had a QB that was better than Fitz...They did not hesitate to Draft Kaepernick simply because it lacked risk...They Drafted Kaepernick because it was the smart thing to do...Period...And it was not a flyer they took on him either...They took him with the intention of Coaching him up and making him a Starting caliber NFL QB...

 

There is no way we'll ever come close to seeing eye-to-eye on this subject...So...Cheers...

[Ramius]

Carroll was very active and aggressive in upgrading the qb position. He tried with multiple efforts to find the right qb. Compare his persistance and aggressiveness to the passivity of the GM who has a 16-32 record. While Buddy is still looking Carroll is now well situated at the qb spot. When Carroll's team played Buddy's team it won 50-17. Carroll certainly has a better grasp on building a team than Buddy does. If you doubt that view then look at the record.

 

So what we're looking at is that Pete Carroll lucking into a 1:1000 shot in the 3rd round is the difference between "active and aggressive" and "complete idiot." Because, that's all it was, pure and simple luck. If Pete Carroll had thought that highly of Wilson, he'd have drafted him much higher.

[NoSaint]

 

 

So what we're looking at is that Pete Carroll lucking into a 1:1000 shot in the 3rd round is the difference between "active and aggressive" and "complete idiot." Because, that's all it was, pure and simple luck. If Pete Carroll had thought that highly of Wilson, he'd have drafted him much higher.

 

agreed. if nix hits this year no one will remember him as a guy scared to pull the trigger he will be a guy that built his roster til he found his qb, just like carroll has gone from a guy recklessly throwing assets away to a man on an aggressive pursuit of his qb

 

process and results get all jumbled up in these conversations. it gets to be messy to discuss with more than 2-3 voices present.

Edited January 25, 2013 by NoSaint

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Carroll obviously thought more of Wilson than Nix did. He thought Wilson was worth a third round pick, Nix did not. That's not luck, it's positional prioritization and talent evaluation.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Big Bad Boone

[Sisyphean Bills]

You can do as you'd like, but I'm not giving Buddy kudos for figuring out that QB is an important position after 3 years on the job because he suggested that he's going after a QB in a weak QB draft class.

 

Neither Seattle nor Washington sat on their hands waiting for the perfect QB to land in their laps. Both those teams have been much more aggressive in the last 3 years than Nix has been. And both organizations found a QB, a strong indication that being aggressive is better than passively waiting for perfection to find you. Ask Chan Gailey how it worked for him.

[AthensThunder]

The only thing that worries me is the weakness in this years QB class.

Nix was responsible in choosing Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers,so he knows QB talent.

[KOKBILLS]

Wait one second. Just one second.

 

From what we know of AJ Smith and Buddy Nix, do you for a split second believe that it was Buddy who pulled the trigger on the Vick deal and the Rivers/Eli Manning deal?

 

Please.

 

Thank you!!!...This exact type of ridiculousness has been seeping out around here lately...Lets put a stop to it right now...

 

The only thing that worries me is the weakness in this years QB class.

Nix was responsible in choosing Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers,so he knows QB talent.

 

He was FAR from "responsible..."

 

He was involved...

[Bill from NYC]

There is a lot of truth to that. I do defend him a lot even though I think he made huge blunders and I think he should be gone. I do not, however, think most of his decisions were indefensible, they were just mistakes.

 

Buddy built an OL for this team after 15 or so years of futility. He is to be hailed for this imo.

The thing is, he didn't only miss with Wilson. In 2011, he wasted the second pick in round 2 on a corner who completely, flat out sucks. Then, he took a light in the ass, sub-par linebacker with the 4th pick of round 3. This with Ryan Mallett sitting there. He passed on Kaepernick and Mallett for players who suck, and there is no possible excuse for this.

And I don't care what he might have been told by Gailey, scouts, or anyone else. He blew numerous opportunities to make the Buffalo Bills Football Team one that is playoff caliber.

There are no excuses for missing on this many opportunities.