Do We Stick With The 3-4

[Chi-town Bills]

Obviously Marcell is way more comfortable playing nose then a 3-4 DE as his production increased dramatically after the injury to Kyle. I'm not saying he wouldn't have produced at the DE (he might have just been getting adjusted to NFL speed) but playing at NT he was a HUGE force.

 

With Kyle coming back next year and the growth of Spencer Johnson at DE/OLB isn't our defense well equipped to play a 4-3 instead. I know we can't keep changing schemes every year but with the team we have now the 4-3 would be the formation that our D would see the most production.

 

We would have Johnson, Edwards, Kelsey, Carrington and maybe Moats already on the team for DE and as for DT Dareus, Williams, and Herd for DT. Combine that with the draft picks of Quinton Coples from NC or Whitney Mercilus from U of I, would stack the D Line Up.

 

Plus with 4 guys with their hands on the ground they will eat up more blockers so our smaller sized LB's can make more plays.

 

Thoughts?

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

Your argument makes too much sense. Edwrads will try and fit a square peg in a round hole instead.

[Mr. WEO]

I say we stick with the scheme that we don't have the players or the appropriate coaching expertise to succeed with---gotta be the 3-4.

[Chi-town Bills]

I had previously wanted Buffalo to switch to the 3-4 and was very happy once they did. However drafting dareus gave us 2 legit DT's that both need to be on the field at the same time.

 

I agree that we need consistency, it lets our guys play the game instead of thinking and it gives off more confidence from our coaches instead of always switching things up.

 

I also think LB's like Kelvin (smaller in size but large in heart and effort) would see their production increase with less OL chasing after them.

[OldTimer1960]

I had previously wanted Buffalo to switch to the 3-4 and was very happy once they did. However drafting dareus gave us 2 legit DT's that both need to be on the field at the same time.

 

I agree that we need consistency, it lets our guys play the game instead of thinking and it gives off more confidence from our coaches instead of always switching things up.

 

I also think LB's like Kelvin (smaller in size but large in heart and effort) would see their production increase with less OL chasing after them.

 

I don't think Sheppard is that small. At NFL.com, he is listed at 6'2" 248. He is likely to be able to add a bit more strength with an NFL-offseason training

program.

[LabattBlue]

I say we stick with the scheme that we don't have the players or the appropriate coaching expertise to succeed with---gotta be the 3-4.

[Turbosrrgood]

Obviously Marcell is way more comfortable playing nose then a 3-4 DE as his production increased dramatically after the injury to Kyle. I'm not saying he wouldn't have produced at the DE (he might have just been getting adjusted to NFL speed) but playing at NT he was a HUGE force.

 

With Kyle coming back next year and the growth of Spencer Johnson at DE/OLB isn't our defense well equipped to play a 4-3 instead. I know we can't keep changing schemes every year but with the team we have now the 4-3 would be the formation that our D would see the most production.

 

We would have Johnson, Edwards, Kelsey, Carrington and maybe Moats already on the team for DE and as for DT Dareus, Williams, and Herd for DT. Combine that with the draft picks of Quinton Coples from NC or Whitney Mercilus from U of I, would stack the D Line Up.

 

Plus with 4 guys with their hands on the ground they will eat up more blockers so our smaller sized LB's can make more plays.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

This has been brought up several times, and I understand the logic...

 

Personally I think the Bills should stick to the 3-4. In a 3-4 Dareus playing "end" isn't that much different than playing DT in a 4-3. For me though, I just like the scheme, they seem to be more successful in general. Having 4 good LB's running around to makes plays is hard to game plan against.

 

Obviously that leads to the next big issue, LB's. IMO we should get some solid LB's to make the scheme work, instead of just switching schemes again. We have Barnett as the only solid starter at this point, it is a GIGANTIC hole on this team.

 

The last factor is a good DC (which we don't have), this is probably the most important factor. If we get a good 4-3 DC, fine change I guess, but we NEED a good defensive mind to get that D working.

[jjmac]

If we switch to the 4-3 then Spencer Johnson would have to move inside, I think.

[CodeMonkey]

Step 1: Get a capable DC.

Step 2: DC evaluates talent and meets with HC and GM.

Step 3: Based on current talent, possible draft and FA additions the trio decides on the best scheme.

 

I really don't give a !@#$ which one it is, as long as they don't suck again next season.

Edited December 30, 2011 by CodeMonkey

[Turbosrrgood]

Step 1: Get a capable DC.

Step 2: DC evaluates talent and meets with HC and GM.

Step 3: Based on current talent, possible draft and FA additions the trio decides on the best scheme.

 

I really don't give a !@#$ which one it is, as long as they don't suck again next season.

 

well said...

 

If we switch to the 4-3 then Spencer Johnson would have to move inside, I think.

 

I like Spencer Johnson, but he should be a rotation guy, not a starter.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Turbosrrgood

[Bob in STL]

Obviously Marcell is way more comfortable playing nose then a 3-4 DE as his production increased dramatically after the injury to Kyle. I'm not saying he wouldn't have produced at the DE (he might have just been getting adjusted to NFL speed) but playing at NT he was a HUGE force.

 

With Kyle coming back next year and the growth of Spencer Johnson at DE/OLB isn't our defense well equipped to play a 4-3 instead. I know we can't keep changing schemes every year but with the team we have now the 4-3 would be the formation that our D would see the most production.

 

We would have Johnson, Edwards, Kelsey, Carrington and maybe Moats already on the team for DE and as for DT Dareus, Williams, and Herd for DT. Combine that with the draft picks of Quinton Coples from NC or Whitney Mercilus from U of I, would stack the D Line Up.

 

Plus with 4 guys with their hands on the ground they will eat up more blockers so our smaller sized LB's can make more plays.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I never understood the strong desire by Nix and Gailey to play 3-4 with the players we had? Even after two drafts aimed at getting us to a 3-4 we still look more suited for the 4-3 for several reasons.

 

1. Dareus can play anywhere but the thought of he and Kyle Williams playing inside together could form the most dominating DT tandem we have had since Tom Sestak and Jim Dunaway (that was 45 years ago).

 

2. We still do not have any OLB/DEs that can play 3-4 and put consistent pressure on the QB from the edges. Don't want to hear about Merriman coming back or Moats/Batten. Kelsey and Johnson are not 3-4 OLBs, anybody can see that.

 

If we can acquire the right OLBs we should be able to play both 3-4 and 4-3 but I think a 4-3 would be our base defense.

 

Our number 1 need is an outside linebacker that gets to the QB and makes plays all over the field. Draft this player and play the defense that best matches what we have.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Bob in STL

[Turbosrrgood]

I never understood the strong desire by Nix and Gailey to play 3-4 with the players we had? Even after two drafts aimed at getting us to a 3-4 we still look more suited for the 4-3 for several reasons.

 

1. Dareus can play anywhere but the thought of he and Kyle Williams playing inside together could form the most dominating DT tandem we have had since Tom Sestak and Jim Dunaway (that was 45 years ago).

 

2. We still do not have any OLB/DEs that can play 3-4 and put consistent pressure on the QB from the edges. Don't want to hear about Merriman coming back or Moats/Batten. Kelsey and Johnson are not 3-4 OLBs, anybody can see that.

 

If we can acquire the right OLBs we should be able to play both 3-4 and 4-3 but I think a 4-3 would be our base defense.

 

Our number 1 need is an outside linebacker that gets to the QB and makes plays all over the field. Draft this player and play the defense that best matches what we have.

 

Well if we went to the 4-3 we would need 2 OLB's (not a big deal, since we need them regardless of scheme). We would also REALLY need a good 4-3 pass rushing end.

 

One of the biggest differences between the two schemes is that the pressure generally comes from the LB's in a 3-4, and the DE's in a 4-3. I think we have a solid 3-4 line, and 3/4's of a 4-3 line, but we don't have LB's to play either right now.

 

CodeMonkey is right, we need to get a quality DC, and let them decide what they want to do...Getting the Bills to spend the money on an assistant may be dreaming a little though...

[Dr. Trooth]

It all depends. If you go to the 4-3 there will need to get rid of some LBs and DL and replace with the same. you have only one DE on the roster that can function adequatelty in it (Kelsay). The rest are 290 lbs. plus... all DTs in a 4-3. You have Barnett and Morrisson as 4-3 MLBs 4-3 LB. No 4-3 OLBs, unless you consider Scott, who will be a FA. You'll need a DC as well... and if you go 4-3, it will be Wanny. See Wanny's resumeSo, if you go 4-3, 75% of the moves made over the past three off seasons are essentially wasted and you now embark on another 3 year rebuild by stepping back from that.

 

 

 

If you want to stay with the 3-4, you need only bring a high draft pick at OLB, a OLB FA, and a nose tackle. With a true and massive NT, Dareus and Williams can move to DE in a 3-4 and move inside as needed. You still have Carrington, Edwards, & Troup as the 2nd wave of linemen. Obvioulsly a new C is needed as well. One not named Edwards or Wanny.

 

So, go ahead... choose what you want, the 4-3 or the 3-4. How long are you willing to wait for a top 10 defense?

[H2o]

I say we stick with the 3-4 and get some pass rushers in the offseason. I hope we pick up Anthony Spencer in FA first and then draft 2, if not 3, OLB's for our 3-4 defense. Getting Courtney Upshaw or Whitney Mercilus in the 1st and Andre Branch or Nick Perry in the 2nd would be my hope. Snag Cordarro Law with one of our 4th's and the pass rushing would be set. We would go from getting no pressure in our 3-4 like now to opposing teams dreading to face our pass rush, especially if we could get Merriman back healthy and just 80-85% the player he was his 1st 3 years rushing the QB.

Edited December 30, 2011 by H2o

[jjmac]

well said...

 

 

 

I like Spencer Johnson, but he should be a rotation guy, not a starter.

 

I agree. If we go to a 4-3, I think Williams and Dareus would be locks to start.

[dpberr]

I'll take any defense that prohibits linemen from pretending to be linebackers.

[jjmac]

I'll take any defense that prohibits linemen from pretending to be linebackers.

 

Don't they call it "fantasy football?"

[Turbosrrgood]

I'll take any defense that prohibits linemen from pretending to be linebackers.

 

Love the idea, I'm going to put a twist on it.

 

 

I'll take any DC who can build a defense properly, without forcing players into unnatural positions...

[sllib olaffub]

I know most topics on this site are here for conversation sake - not for real answers that more or less end the topic. But, I have to say, this topic has a real answer and it's been posted already - the first move to determine what defense we run is to choose who will be running that defense. As it is, a great D-Coordinator, regardless of scheme, could have us in the top 10 in defense with the right draft and F.A. period this offseason.

 

If we really want a great Defense, then the front office has to pony up and go get a great coordinator. You give an average coordinator a good defense - personnel wise - and we get an average Defense. For all we know, you have Nolan coaching this same group of players all year and we might be somewhere in the 8-12 range for an overall ranked Defense. Start with the Coordinator, then get the guys we need to run it.

 

What has stopped the Bills from having a good defense? The answer is either Gailey/Nix are more concerned with loyalty to a friend, and Edwards has just stunk it up - or, Wilson is too cheap to pay for a good Coordinator. It doesn't matter, though, what scheme we run unless we've got a good coach.

 

Given a good coach, we have a good enough young core of secondary and a good enough core of D-linemen to make either scheme work with the addition of the right linebackers. Personally, I prefer a good 3-4. But, IMO, a great 3-4 relies on a huge NT who can clog up the middle. Dereus, as great as he is, and Williams, too - those two, the best D-players on this team, might be the reason we don't go easily into the 3-4. They might be better suited for 4-3 DT's, and moving them to 3-4 ends, or asking one to play NT, might only hurt the cause. We'll see - I'd say a good D-Coordinator could make a better decision about all of it than I could.

[Picnic Table F'er]

Bills play a lot of both 3-4 and 4-3. I think it's silly to restrict your defense to one formation.

[AxelRipper]

Madden Style: Whatever defense seems to work at that time, from whatever formation you need. Just make it stop the opposing offense.

[jjmac]

Bills play a lot of both 3-4 and 4-3. I think it's silly to restrict your defense to one formation.

 

OK, I'll bite. Why?

[Bill from NYC]

If you want to stay with the 3-4, you need only bring a high draft pick at OLB, a OLB FA, and a nose tackle. With a true and massive NT, Dareus and Williams can move to DE in a 3-4 and move inside as needed. You still have Carrington, Edwards, & Troup as the 2nd wave of linemen. Obvioulsly a new C is needed as well. One not named Edwards or Wanny.

 

So, go ahead... choose what you want, the 4-3 or the 3-4. How long are you willing to wait for a top 10 defense?

 

This won't go over well, but I don't see a place for Kyle Williams in a 3/4 defense. He simply does not have the body type to play DE. The man is a DT, and a pretty good one at that.

 

Also, in a 3/4, they will have to make a decision wrt Dareus. Do you want to keep him at nose? I'm not so sure.

[Brandon]

While I would prefer that they stay in a 3-4, I don't think it matters much in the short term. They're not a good defense in either alignment. I think people are forgetting that the Bills allowed 2500 rushing yards in Dick Jauron's last year. Their struggles started before the coaching change.

 

The two biggest problems with this defense are that they don't have a pass rusher and that their starting corners are older than dirt. Those problems will still exist in either front and will continue to plague this defense until they're addressed.

[Pirate Angel]

Obviously Marcell is way more comfortable playing nose then a 3-4 DE as his production increased dramatically after the injury to Kyle. I'm not saying he wouldn't have produced at the DE (he might have just been getting adjusted to NFL speed) but playing at NT he was a HUGE force.

 

With Kyle coming back next year and the growth of Spencer Johnson at DE/OLB isn't our defense well equipped to play a 4-3 instead. I know we can't keep changing schemes every year but with the team we have now the 4-3 would be the formation that our D would see the most production.

 

We would have Johnson, Edwards, Kelsey, Carrington and maybe Moats already on the team for DE and as for DT Dareus, Williams, and Herd for DT. Combine that with the draft picks of Quinton Coples from NC or Whitney Mercilus from U of I, would stack the D Line Up.

 

Plus with 4 guys with their hands on the ground they will eat up more blockers so our smaller sized LB's can make more plays.

 

Thoughts?

 

in switching back to a true 4-3 the only thing we are accomplishing is having 2 good DT's and and decent rotational guy in Spencer. We've watched Kelsey at 4-3 end for years, while serviceable he still is no reason to change your defense plus is is getting old. Barnett is more effective out of the 3-4. So really what your doing is shuffling the same below average talent around and just creating other weak points in the defense. Until we can find a way to consistently wreak havoc in the opponents backfield it doesn't matter if what defense we run.

[LynchMob23]

Doesn't really matter. If you keep the 3-4 you can put Williams at 1 or 3 tech with Dareus at the other and a true 3-4 DE at 5 tech opposite site. It's exactly like a 4-3 over front and you still have the linebackers behind it to flow to the ball. All this strict 4-3 or 3-4 isn't helpful, as 4-3 (2-4-5 in particular) are used by 3-4 defenses in Nickel, where you have 2 true down linemen (Williams and Dareus), 4 linebackers (take your pick) and the starting secondary + a Nickelback (either Scott or Corner or Rogers)

[3rdand12]

I think that we drafted Marcel to play DE. Even though he can play any place up there and most techs.

With Kyle healthy we are two or 3 players away from a solid 3-4. Two of those might be outside backers.

We are fine with Barnett and and up and coming Sheppard in place.

the reason we have been hybrid i believe has been based on the absolute lack of outside pass rusher. and Kyle going down too.

with KW at the nose and MD at end that keeps 3 or 4 players busy! this will free up someone and cause fits to O coordinators.

Seriously we are not that far away. And Kyle and Marcel will still play next to each other. As mentioned we have decent rotation up front too. Go Bills

[missthe kgun]

DC would help a bunch!

 

Now I know I'm gonna get ripped for this next statement, but I would trade Kyle while his stock is high.

 

Send him to a 4-3 team in need of 1 more DT like the Bucs, helping him and giving us an added pick to find another LB in the draft. An OLB who can flat out get it.

 

I like Kyle, but he does not fit the scheme, and doesn't elevate his teammates around him in the scheme.

 

OLB is the most glaring issue, on the field. Though the 3 blind mice can see that the Biggest Issue is the DC. Edwards couldn't come up with a scheme to stop an offense during a commercial break, when no one is even playing at the time.

 

He Sucks!!!

[vincec]

Doesn't really matter. If you keep the 3-4 you can put Williams at 1 or 3 tech with Dareus at the other and a true 3-4 DE at 5 tech opposite site. It's exactly like a 4-3 over front and you still have the linebackers behind it to flow to the ball. All this strict 4-3 or 3-4 isn't helpful, as 4-3 (2-4-5 in particular) are used by 3-4 defenses in Nickel, where you have 2 true down linemen (Williams and Dareus), 4 linebackers (take your pick) and the starting secondary + a Nickelback (either Scott or Corner or Rogers)

This is my opinion as well. All this 4-3 or 3-4 talk is a red herring. What the Bills need are more playmakers and better defensive coaching, plain and simple.

Edited December 31, 2011 by vincec

[T master]

If you watch the 1 on 1 video on BB.com Chris Brown asks Gailey if there would be a discussion on this exact subject to which Gailey's answer was yes , they would be discussing the thought of being a 4/3 but with that being said would still be a hybrid type of D .

 

That reason being b/c they have drafted to be a 3/4 D for the last 2 years & Barnett is more of a 3/4 LB than the other . So i suggest checking out the interview on BB.com !!!

[sllib olaffub]

DC would help a bunch!

 

Now I know I'm gonna get ripped for this next statement, but I would trade Kyle while his stock is high.

 

Send him to a 4-3 team in need of 1 more DT like the Bucs, helping him and giving us an added pick to find another LB in the draft. An OLB who can flat out get it.

 

I like Kyle, but he does not fit the scheme, and doesn't elevate his teammates around him in the scheme.

 

OLB is the most glaring issue, on the field. Though the 3 blind mice can see that the Biggest Issue is the DC. Edwards couldn't come up with a scheme to stop an offense during a commercial break, when no one is even playing at the time.

 

He Sucks!!!

 

I don't think anyone should get ripped for any idea - that type of mentality is exactly what causes teams from being successful; you've got to be open to any solution if it might be better than what you've got. As far as K. Willaims being traded - I'd second that IF - and that is a big IF - we could get real value in return for him. That means a player good enough to be pro-bowl material every year, and young enough to play for another 4 years. Or, a high enough draft pick to get a young guy who has potential to be that good.

Frankly, in a 3-4, if we were to get a monster NT, have Dareus as one end, you'd want a quicker, more get to the QB type of DE on the other side. I think a guy like Bruce Smith, for instance. Now, if we could trade K. Williams for an excellent DE/OLB type player, or the right pick to land a potential player, or to package and trade up for a QB - I'd take it.

 

Then again, keeping him and switching to a 4-3 might not be bad, either. It's just a point that they'd better use what they have to the players fullest, or they'll never get anywhere.

[Bufcomments]

Obviously Marcell is way more comfortable playing nose then a 3-4 DE as his production increased dramatically after the injury to Kyle. I'm not saying he wouldn't have produced at the DE (he might have just been getting adjusted to NFL speed) but playing at NT he was a HUGE force.

 

With Kyle coming back next year and the growth of Spencer Johnson at DE/OLB isn't our defense well equipped to play a 4-3 instead. I know we can't keep changing schemes every year but with the team we have now the 4-3 would be the formation that our D would see the most production.

 

We would have Johnson, Edwards, Kelsey, Carrington and maybe Moats already on the team for DE and as for DT Dareus, Williams, and Herd for DT. Combine that with the draft picks of Quinton Coples from NC or Whitney Mercilus from U of I, would stack the D Line Up.

 

Plus with 4 guys with their hands on the ground they will eat up more blockers so our smaller sized LB's can make more plays.

 

Thoughts?

can you be our next DC. what you said should be put into action.

 

If they saw Kelsey have a career game at DE it has to make them think.

 

Kelsey, Dareus, Williams, Edwards would be an Decent starting D line. Keep Barrett at MLB.

 

I dont know if they can get 2 Starting Lb's in one draft but yea they are closer to being good in the 4-3 than 3-4.

[tombstone56]

I think the need for pass rusher is huge but both at de and at olb ,my hope in off season is bills do this ,get paul solai for dt-nt and calais campbell de in free agency,,add them to williams dareus carrington .etc the front would be set for a 3-4,, 4-3 ,,5-front, any rotation that they could dream up..then we draft either uphaw or hightower in the 1st for olb, ,,,thatd be one heck of a difference..add another in the second someone always slips to there unexspectedly..curry,,,burfict,,, jenkins?

[3rdand12]

we have a proven player in Kyle. He has been criticised for his non NT size many times and overcome that by a long shot.

We have two proto noses to fill that need in Heard and Troup if we use that alignment.

Please do not talk about trading off Kyle for a Possible Potential? star.

I just dont like the attitude that the grass MAY be greener. I understand it as it applies to getting a better alignment but Kyle should stay a Bill. When he regains his health next season i think most will agree that Kyle and Marcel will be one of the most fierce tandems in the NFL. mark my words gentlemen.