NoSaint

Again you are quoting a summary of the rule, while I pulled the verbiage from the rule book for you. It’s quoted in this thread and reads “contact”

Typically an acknowledgement that they can’t write every possible mix of events but that they specifically call out contact leads me to believe it’s considered a pretty key element there. No? If simply obstructing/hindering even without contact was within the regularly intended scope why even include the word contact in it?

Unfortunately, your link is a summary not the rule. From the linked rule there: Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball;

Unless someone posts the rule pointing contrary it’s hard to say you think it should’ve been called. Sure you might think the rule should be changed but the refs should call the rule as on the books. I wont pretend to know the letter of it but the logic they presented made sense and seems consistent

Contact is a key element of the penalty it seems. If a DB ran in front of a receiver and the receiver tripped trying to avoid him we wouldn’t expect a flag without contact to bring a more common but relatively analogous situation to think about

Generally, yes, last I knew the roughness penalties were a standardized amount in the last CBA with annual escalators for that amount, with flexibility to go higher for more egregious offenses, more intense repetition of offenses, etc... but out of the gate for basic situations it was (and believe still is) negotiated consistent terms

He’s got quite the rap sheet for bad hits. Bold play from the nfl but glad to see it.

Yea, I totally said that ? He was supposed to hit the QB there. The collision went poorly.

If our own defender pulled up there completely avoiding contact and the QBs got the first there would be 8 different multi page threads about cutting him.

Unfortunately the defender is going high to stop his mass short and the extension for the first. Once joshs head comes down the target area in the chest range nearly disappears. It’s a hit they try to eliminate but will be very difficult to achieve no matter what the punishment. A 15 yard flag there is catastrophic for the patriots.

Hes also a 5’8 180lbs guy the just stopped a 240lbs guy with momentum. While the flex aged poorly I think it was very possibly just on the high of a big hit and had no idea josh wasn’t popping back up.

Before the game fouts used "The ever daring and often disastrous josh Allen" to refer to him. I objected at the time but could only argue so long today.

Saying the holding flag came before the hit isn’t justifying the hit or arguing a technicality. Heck, I’ve agreed it’s a bad hit, should be penalty and should be fined. And was penalized. And will be fined. All I did was debate with a few folks if the guys goal was to decapitate him or he was just trying to stop him with a big (and poorly controlled) hit. It will never be eliminated fully. I agree it should be minimized though.

You can argue that with no complaint from me but to imply the call on this play was to cancel out the hit doesn’t seem accurate. That’s all I was saying.

Bandit, the holding flag came out before the hit. It wasn’t to ensure offsetting.

And that’s why you get him an over the top best in league supporting cast this year and next year. As as he matures and his pay goes up he loses a weapon or two but hopefully it balances out

Its hand in hand with the long running “accuracy” issues. At its core it’s a polished fundamentals issue. It reminds me of watching a lot of cam. That guy loves throwing back foot, or falling away. Or across his body across the field. Or.... but when he hits a couple of those and churns some first downs with his feet and otherwise plays decent ball- you see an mvp candidate. When he misses those though, and he’s beat up from running it can get ugly. josh has all the potential in the world but some major red flags that’ll be a challenge to overcome. All you can do is cheer for him. A true #1 WR with brown at 2 and beasley 3 would’ve been such a big score if they could’ve found a way to make it happen.

The back foot throws worry me a lot. It’s entirely too frequent and at this level relearning basics like that can be a challenge. He’s had some work out but in a tight game early you can’t do it. Save it for down 6 with 30 seconds to go, and hope you can pull a rabbit out of the hat that only a few others can.

I’ll preface that I think intent is one of the hardest things to judge. Especially sitting on a couch 1000 miles away judging split second occurrences in the heat of battle. That said, the last video went a long way to reconfirming a few of my memories of the situational aspects of the play that I thought were true but wasn’t 100% sure of... 3rd and 8 in the 4th quarter and crossing mid field in a 6 point game on the road. The defender is camped essentially EXACTLY at the sticks above the receivers routes and I’m positive (if not today, all offseason) was told “stand 8 yards deep and so help you god if anyone gets by you” because that first down is likely the difference between a punt and likely at minimum a FG attempt. If he doesn’t hit Allen hard there, it’s a VERY good chance at dragging the other defender to a first and a likely shot at points soon after. If he stops him, it’s a drive ended. Dude is 8 inches shorter and 60 lbs lighter than Josh who is running at him and known to be both powerful and elusive. I think he wound up to hit him as hard as he could at center of mass to stop him in his tracks and when he turned his shoulder a little and Allen started falling low and inside a bit it went from bad to very ugly. I think that he rode the adrenaline of the monster hit and protecting the line and celebrated without having any idea that josh was staying down. I think for me a final judgement would rest on the guys reputation. If he intentionally took Joshs head off, extending the drive that might’ve been done and putting them in FG range with no promise he even rattles Josh.... it’s a really dumb play. For me Occams says he was just a small guy laying his hardest hit on a big guy at a bad angle. If he does that often I’m glad to say he’s a dirty player and it wasn’t just a bad hit.

Fines and such on this are pretty standardized I believe (haven’t kept up closely, but roughness penalties are a CBA negotiated amount/schedule to my knowledge). Unless deemed far outside the norm, it would be the same penalty.

If the dude has any reputation for it, I’ll concede it fast but he also just stopped a 6’5 and 240 lbs horse dead in his tracks. I think quite a few guys have that reaction after a massive hit that they “win” in a major moment. I dont think there was much thought beyond “stop that dude” and “hell yea I stopped that dude”

The tricky part in live time is josh going down and to the inside. Lowering a shoulder into his chest on his original path puts a helmet into his helmet once he starts going low and inside of him. again, not arguing it’s clean, or a good hit but I think a tougher spot than some acknowledged in a split second with a lot of moving pieces and a goal of ending forward progress

Once JAs helmet starts going down, and given jones position on him... there was almost no legal strike zone to truly stop forward progress. I dont doubt he wanted wanted to lay lumber but it’s also late in the game and if I recall was relatively near the first down marker. If Allen drags a guy 3 yards extending a drive... it’s an absolutely ugly hit and needs to be penalized but it’ll be tough to eliminate from the game completely.

I didn’t say it was a clean hit. I said I thought his intention was to not allow another foot gained. In that context there were few ways to stop him in his tracks the way they were coming together. its still a bad hit but maybe I’m giving the guy too much credit and he was focused on the injury.

I often say go for it. That seemed like an obvious take the points and posted before the decision was made