Big Turk Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 After looking at various things, I am beginning to believe our blocking scheme is the root of our problems in the run game. When Derrick Dockery was with the Redskins, he was considered a road grader, and runs behind his side of the football were in the top 5 in the NFL for average gain. Oakland had a pretty decent running game when running the ball behind Langston Walker. Minnesota even could run the ball effectively with Fowler as the center. So to me, the problem must be our scheme. Dockery does not go from one of the best run blocking guards in the NFL to a guy who can't block overnight. Fowler while not the greatest center in the world, isn't horrible either, although he gets shoved into the backfield a little too much for my liking. What do you think the problem is? I can't imagine players who were successful at run blocking on other teams, including a guy who was one of the best at it in Dockery, can all of a sudden not know how to run block anymore... It appears the guys are tentative when blocking and are waiting for the DLinemen to come to them rather than trying to force the issue and blow them off the ball... Anyone else have any comments on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 We use a zone blocking scheme... so yeah... its the scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGimp Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 If it's so obvious to everybody, why do they not change it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JStranger76 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 We do not use a zone blocking scheme for the last GD time people. The problem is a center with no explosive power and a RG who is built like a overweight power forward in basketball. Now, EVERY team uses a few zone blocking concepts, the Bills included, but only for certain plays. Denver and now Atlanta are the two teams who use the scheme just about all the time. Watch those two teams and you'll see a true zone blocking team. Of couse, a legit TE would keep an extra defender out of the box too........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsjunkie Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 We do not use a zone blocking scheme for the last GD time people. The problem is a center with no explosive power and a RG who is built like a overweight power forward in basketball. Now, EVERY team uses a few zone blocking concepts, the Bills included, but only for certain plays. Denver and now Atlanta are the two teams who use the scheme just about all the time. Watch those two teams and you'll see a true zone blocking team. Of couse, a legit TE would keep an extra defender out of the box too........ According to Bills HOF Joe D we most certainly do use a zone run blocking scheme and it's his opinon that its a huge problem with our running game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 After looking at various things, I am beginning to believe our blocking scheme is the root of our problems in the run game. When Derrick Dockery was with the Redskins, he was considered a road grader, and runs behind his side of the football were in the top 5 in the NFL for average gain. Oakland had a pretty decent running game when running the ball behind Langston Walker. Minnesota even could run the ball effectively with Fowler as the center. So to me, the problem must be our scheme. Dockery does not go from one of the best run blocking guards in the NFL to a guy who can't block overnight. Fowler while not the greatest center in the world, isn't horrible either, although he gets shoved into the backfield a little too much for my liking. What do you think the problem is? I can't imagine players who were successful at run blocking on other teams, including a guy who was one of the best at it in Dockery, can all of a sudden not know how to run block anymore... It appears the guys are tentative when blocking and are waiting for the DLinemen to come to them rather than trying to force the issue and blow them off the ball... Anyone else have any comments on this? Folwer wasnt the center, Matt Birk was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Of the top 32 running backs (by total yardage), only one has fewer yards per carry than Marshawn. Marshawn has 3.5 yards per carry. I do not know if this is because of Marshawn, the line, or a combination of the two. Marshawn runs hard and is great at getting that yard or two for the first down or TD. It would be nice to see his rushing average increase. FWIW, Fred Jackson has 4.5 yards per carry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I honestly don't know enough specifics about run blocking schemes to say for certain. But I do know coaching in sports, and how to get matchups to work my way. What I don't understand is: If your guy has an extra 50-80 pounds on the guy across from him, and equal if not better feet, I have no idea why you would have your kid come off the line and run sideways, trying to use body position to get an advantage on a different guy. It seems to me that you do that only if your guys are equal or smaller than the other guys and you're just trying to get one hole at one spot. Running sideways/diagonal gives up all of your advantage/leverage and it simply comes down to who can get to what spot first. I don't get why we don't have our guys push straight ahead, right at their man, especially the opponents DEs. The best example of that was the Lynch TD vs. the Raiders on the goal line. Lynch barely had to do anything, because the entire Raider team was already in the endzone when he was handed the ball. It looks like he expected to have to juke and ended up falling forward because there was nobody in front of him to run into. It looked like he didn't expect that at all and fell right on his face . I mean I'm sure he didn't care as long as he gets his TD, but that play looked ridiculous. If our guys can blow up an entire line like that -- and don't kid yourself, the Raiders D line is pretty good -- I have no idea why we don't do it all the time. The sheer chaos it would create, never mind giving Lynch a 3 yard head start, seems to be worth doing it more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Haven’t the Broncos been using a Zone blocking scheme for the past 15 years. Zone blocking is not the problem. The Bills use a form of the running system that Studsville/McNally used (successfully) with the Giants. All of the current o-linemen were brought in under McNally; you would think that they were suited for his system. I am hoping that some minor bye week adjustments fix the run blocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JStranger76 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I know people will say how can Hall of Famer Joe D be wrong well he is. McNally has never employed a zone scheme and neither has Kugler at Bosie St. and now with the Bills. Assistant Ray Brown had never been part of a zone scheme either. Sorry, Joe D is wrong with the zone scheme. The Bills simply try to get too fancy instead of just being more physical, but in all fairness, the center and RG aren't suited for a straight ahead physical scheme either. It's pretty f***ed up right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsjunkie Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I know people will say how can Hall of Famer Joe D be wrong well he is. McNally has never employed a zone scheme and neither has Kugler at Bosie St. and now with the Bills. Assistant Ray Brown had never been part of a zone scheme either. Sorry, Joe D is wrong with the zone scheme. The Bills simply try to get too fancy instead of just being more physical, but in all fairness, the center and RG aren't suited for a straight ahead physical scheme either. It's pretty f***ed up right now. No offense but I will trust Joe D. over a poster on a internet message board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JStranger76 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 That's fine but it doesn't change the fact that the Bills don't run a zone blocking scheme. Now, Joe D may feel the Bills run too many plays that resemble the zone block scheme but they don't run the Denver system whether Joe D thinks they do or not. No offense taken, no big deal. Like I said though, it doesn't really matter because the personel on the line prevents the line from being great at smash mouth or zone. It's FUBAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playman Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I honestly don't know enough specifics about run blocking schemes to say for certain. But I do know coaching in sports, and how to get matchups to work my way. What I don't understand is: If your guy has an extra 50-80 pounds on the guy across from him, and equal if not better feet, I have no idea why you would have your kid come off the line and run sideways, trying to use body position to get an advantage on a different guy. It seems to me that you do that only if your guys are equal or smaller than the other guys and you're just trying to get one hole at one spot. Running sideways/diagonal gives up all of your advantage/leverage and it simply comes down to who can get to what spot first. I don't get why we don't have our guys push straight ahead, right at their man, especially the opponents DEs. The best example of that was the Lynch TD vs. the Raiders on the goal line. Lynch barely had to do anything, because the entire Raider team was already in the endzone when he was handed the ball. It looks like he expected to have to juke and ended up falling forward because there was nobody in front of him to run into. It looked like he didn't expect that at all and fell right on his face . I mean I'm sure he didn't care as long as he gets his TD, but that play looked ridiculous. If our guys can blow up an entire line like that -- and don't kid yourself, the Raiders D line is pretty good -- I have no idea why we don't do it all the time. The sheer chaos it would create, never mind giving Lynch a 3 yard head start, seems to be worth doing it more often. exactly the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Of the top 32 running backs (by total yardage), only one has fewer yards per carry than Marshawn. Marshawn has 3.5 yards per carry. I do not know if this is because of Marshawn, the line, or a combination of the two. Marshawn runs hard and is great at getting that yard or two for the first down or TD. It would be nice to see his rushing average increase. FWIW, Fred Jackson has 4.5 yards per carry. Freddy is just a bit quicker to the line than Marshawn (IMO). He is also a 'squirter', able to accelerate through a small hole and pop out the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Scheme. Run blocking was better last year. Lynch's yards per carry is bad because when he gets the ball at least 2 out of 3 times, he has nowhere to go. He runs into a huge pile of bodies at the LOS and can maybe bull for a yard or two. Then every so often he does get a good hole and he rips off a nice run. I don't know enough about OLine blocking schemes to say what the problem is. But it's definitely the blocking. I too will take a HOF OL guy's word over an internet chat poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdBlueNorth Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 We can use just about any scheme we want, but there simply isn't enough respect out there for our passing game to get defenses out of the box. Watch a game and see how stacked the box is, other teams run blitz and that is often as effective as a good pass rush even if Trent changes the play up. You will notice that when we are in the no-huddle and 2 and 4 minute drills where we are throwing the quick passes on quick drops that we are very successful ripping off big runs. There is the fact that the other team cannot substitute players, but also the fact that they no longer load the box against the run. If we change the tempo sooner in games with a short passing attack, and if Fowler grows a pair our running game will improve like magic. I also think that teams can get too cute with their blocking - just pushing that guy in front of you on his butt is unusually simple and effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofton80 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I think the zone blocking strategy is for the running back to hit whatever crease exists and Fred Jackson is good at changing directions and going forward at the same time. He slides over to wherever the crease is. It appears to me the Marshawn is a plow ahead/ physical runner that might be better served by a drive blocking scheme. I also think Fowler gets blown up in the middle of the line which limits our between the tackles running. Not sure Butler has the feet for a zone blocking scheme either. After watching the SD nose tackle manhandle NE's center last week, I cannot see Fowler being too successful. He does make good line calls though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lets_go_bills Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 When you have the heaviest line in the biz, there's no excuse to be five games in and not have a 100 yard rusher yet. All I hear is how those guys love to block for Lynch. O-Lineman are supposed to love run block, because all they have to do is be road-grading beasts. Juts drive block and push. I think they'll get it together soon. The whole Peters thing hurt us, but they'll get in sync soon I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Folwer wasnt the center, Matt Birk was. No, Birk wasn't the center. He missed the entire 2005 season and Fowler started the last 9 games, during which Minny was one of the hottest teams in the NFL. Thus, when the Bills signed Fowler, they had their starting center and tried to fill another need in the draft, DT. So in short, Matt Birk is the one to blame for the Bills drafting McCargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2003Contenders Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 One thing that I have found encouraging is that -- Arizona game aside -- they have shown a tendency to get better as the game moves forward. Part of that, I believe, is a product of the big men wearing down the defense over the course of the game. Peters has now played in 4 games. That is his preseason. He's had the extra week to help with the cohesion factor. Lets hope he looks like the LT he thinks he is beginning this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsaikotic Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I think the blocking can and will be better come mid season when the line finally gets back from that bullsh!t Peters put them thru...do I think we need upgrades?..yes at both C and RG...so I'm not saying the line is going to be dominant just better...heres the running so far this season.. and don't forget that Bills have 2 RB' not just Lynch..: week 1 - Bills vs. Seattle : Lynch 18/76(4.2), Jackson 10/31(3.1) > 28/107(3.8) week 2 - Bills vs Jax: Lynch 19/59(3.1), Jackson 6/17(2.8) > 25/76(3.04) week 3 - Bills vs Raiders: Lynch 23/83(3.6), Jackson 5/24(4.8) > 28/107(3.8) week 4 - Bills vs Rams: Lynch 19/57(3.0), Jackson 7/46(6.5) > 26/103(3.9) week 5 - Bills vs Cardinals: Lynch 13/55(4.2), Jackson 1/5(5.0) > 14/60(4.2) thats 3 games with over 100 yards rushing, 1 game against a good run stopping D for 76 yards and 1 game in which JP had to throw all day to catch up against Cardinals...would I like to see Lynch with 90+ yards and Jackson with 50+ every game..yea sure, but its not going to happen until we get a new C and maybe a new RG as well...but I think(hope) after the bye the yards go up with the O-Line have a little time to get back on track Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookiemonster Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 After looking at various things, I am beginning to believe our blocking scheme is the root of our problems in the run game. When Derrick Dockery was with the Redskins, he was considered a road grader, and runs behind his side of the football were in the top 5 in the NFL for average gain. Oakland had a pretty decent running game when running the ball behind Langston Walker. Minnesota even could run the ball effectively with Fowler as the center. So to me, the problem must be our scheme. Dockery does not go from one of the best run blocking guards in the NFL to a guy who can't block overnight. Fowler while not the greatest center in the world, isn't horrible either, although he gets shoved into the backfield a little too much for my liking. What do you think the problem is? I can't imagine players who were successful at run blocking on other teams, including a guy who was one of the best at it in Dockery, can all of a sudden not know how to run block anymore... It appears the guys are tentative when blocking and are waiting for the DLinemen to come to them rather than trying to force the issue and blow them off the ball... Anyone else have any comments on this? Maybe the scheme is an issue, but I would also consider the fact that other teams really do not respect our passing game, so they load up the box, and rely on man to man coverage. I think that Trent and the recivers are getting more comfortable, and starting to produce more on a consistent basis, and that will do more than anyting to open up the run. I realize that it is usually the other way around, but we are going to have to use the passing game to set up our running game, and Trent is just the man to do this. Using Evans more on quick slants, and short quick strikes, as well as Reed and Roscoe, and they have been doing it, at least a couple of times this year we have opened our first offensive series with middle range passes to Evans that have turned in to fairly long gains, we need to keep doing this. until teams start respecting our passing game, our run blocking will not be as effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsaikotic Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 and like someone already said..I think the lack of a real pass catching TE has hurt us also...with no respect shown to any of the Bills TE 's, teams can stack the box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Freddy is just a bit quicker to the line than Marshawn (IMO). He is also a 'squirter', able to accelerate through a small hole and pop out the other side. Disagree - I just think he's in their in situations where the defense isn't stacking up against the run (he gets a good number of passes). When Lynch is in there, they do stack up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnbillsbacker Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 The problem with the line is Jason Peters's holdout and the middle of the line. Last year, the bills were able to give Walker help on passing plays, because Peters could hold off the best pass rushers in the league by himself. This year, Peters has struggled, so there has been a lot more pressure on the qb. As for the run blocking, Fowler and Butler are not great run blockers. Fowler is a very smart player who makes good calls on the line, but he can't put a helmet on a helmet and take the tackle out of the play. In fact, many times the tackle is able to blow right by him, disrupting the play in the backfield. I fear this problem will get worse instead of better, with the 3-4 teams in the AFC east all having strong nose tackles. Butler is a poor fit at rg. Ross Tucker, called rg the 2nd hardest position on the line. Butler is not up to the task. He has the talent to be a good backup at the tackle position, but lacks the push in the running game. Of Butler and Fowler, Butler is here to stay. The team has invested a lot of money in him, and believe he will get better. As bills fans, we have to hope for the best. Fowler however, will be replaced. In any other division in football, he would be fine. In the AFC east, the bills need a stronger center to hold off Jenkins and Wilfolk. The bills line will improve however, once Peters gets back into playing shape. When it is all said and done, I believe the bills line will be considered average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordong Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Geesh..... do any of you guy remember last year we had THE best oline coach in the business....bar none. and this year we don't, maybe that might have something to do with it?????? YES. And it's kinda funny how peters looks average this year as compared to last...and the line is giving up way more sacks? do you see the trend yet??? COACHING....COACHING my friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I think the zone blocking strategy is for the running back to hit whatever crease exists and Fred Jackson is good at changing directions and going forward at the same time. He slides over to wherever the crease is. It appears to me the Marshawn is a plow ahead/ physical runner that might be better served by a drive blocking scheme. I also think Fowler gets blown up in the middle of the line which limits our between the tackles running. Not sure Butler has the feet for a zone blocking scheme either. After watching the SD nose tackle manhandle NE's center last week, I cannot see Fowler being too successful. He does make good line calls though. I agree that it's altogether too easy for defensive linemen to push Fowler around. As far as him making good line calls goes . . . I'm not so sure. This season I've noticed times when it appeared that the wrong line call was made. I suspect that's part of the reason why the line has typically failed to provide any pass protection at all until the 4th quarter, which to me is an even more serious problem than the absence of any noticeable run blocking. For those who have been examining the line's play in detail: how does the quality of Fowler's line calls compare to that of other centers in the league? I know that everyone makes mistakes, but has Fowler, this season, made more or fewer mistakes than is normal for a center? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted October 15, 2008 Author Share Posted October 15, 2008 That's fine but it doesn't change the fact that the Bills don't run a zone blocking scheme. Now, Joe D may feel the Bills run too many plays that resemble the zone block scheme but they don't run the Denver system whether Joe D thinks they do or not. No offense taken, no big deal. Like I said though, it doesn't really matter because the personel on the line prevents the line from being great at smash mouth or zone. It's FUBAR. Well, if they are in fact running a zone scheme, then perhaps this is the problem, since the Bills are the heaviest offensive line in the league at an average of 322 lbs, and most zone blocking schemes call for OL that are in the 295-305 lb range and emphasize quickness and lateral movement over raw power... They most certainly have the wrong personal for a zone scheme if they are running it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted October 15, 2008 Author Share Posted October 15, 2008 Geesh..... do any of you guy remember last year we had THE best oline coach in the business....bar none. and this year we don't, maybe that might have something to do with it?????? YES. And it's kinda funny how peters looks average this year as compared to last...and the line is giving up way more sacks? do you see the trend yet??? COACHING....COACHING my friends actually, they were just as bad at run blocking last year if not worse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 After looking at various things, I am beginning to believe our blocking scheme is the root of our problems in the run game. When Derrick Dockery was with the Redskins, he was considered a road grader, and runs behind his side of the football were in the top 5 in the NFL for average gain. Oakland had a pretty decent running game when running the ball behind Langston Walker. Minnesota even could run the ball effectively with Fowler as the center. So to me, the problem must be our scheme. Dockery does not go from one of the best run blocking guards in the NFL to a guy who can't block overnight. Fowler while not the greatest center in the world, isn't horrible either, although he gets shoved into the backfield a little too much for my liking. What do you think the problem is? I can't imagine players who were successful at run blocking on other teams, including a guy who was one of the best at it in Dockery, can all of a sudden not know how to run block anymore... It appears the guys are tentative when blocking and are waiting for the DLinemen to come to them rather than trying to force the issue and blow them off the ball... Anyone else have any comments on this? I disagree, Fowler really is terrible. We don't challenge defenses to cover the whole field. Yeah, after 786 consecutive plays within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage, we "fool" the defense by going long and look very clever doing so, for a play here and a play there. I also don't think we block straight ahead much. With a big line like ours, I think we are better off not asking these guys to make much lateral movement. Let them just hit the guy in front of them and move them wherever they can and let Lynch find the hole. Old school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I thought Butler looked real good last year. He really seemed to get better as the year wore on. This year, I thought he would be a real strength of the line. A guy really coming into his own. That has not happened (to my untrained eye)...why? He just does not seem to have the strength/leverage to push his guy around. He did that last year, especially at the end of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spirit of '66 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 IMO the Bills run the ball better when they spread the defense out with 3 or 4 WRs. I'm not talking about 3rd and long draw plays. I'm talking any down and distance. They get clogged up when they use a TE, a FB and bring Josh Reed in motion to block. All that does is bring extra defenders into the box being blocked by guys who aren't good blockers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Let them just hit the guy in front of them and move them wherever they can and let Lynch find the hole. Old school. Run to daylight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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