Let’s talk D

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

45 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

The disconnect is a lot of fans think stopping the run is personnel driven when in reality it's population to the football and being gap sound. The people don't matter as long as they fit properly. You have to have the numbers advantage. The big runs are coming, more often than not, in situations where we lose the numbers advantage because of poor reads and initial attack steps or just poor fits in general not because we are getting overpowered up front.

 

Take this week for example. The big 43 yard touchdown happened because Taron Johnson didn't read his key, went flying into the box and we gave up the edge because of it. Additionally, he ran into Bernard and took him out of the play. Milano had a poor read backside and was slow to fit off the GT pull action away. All that combined we were -1 to the playside when we should have been +1 had everyone done their job correctly.

So you are saying it’s not about the people but it’s about people that know how to do the job? It seems like that’s a serious contradiction. I want the personnel on the field that are more likely to do the correct thing 

[Carmel Corn]

57 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

The disconnect is a lot of fans think stopping the run is personnel driven when in reality it's population to the football and being gap sound. The people don't matter as long as they fit properly. You have to have the numbers advantage. The big runs are coming, more often than not, in situations where we lose the numbers advantage because of poor reads and initial attack steps or just poor fits in general not because we are getting overpowered up front.

 

Take this week for example. The big 43 yard touchdown happened because Taron Johnson didn't read his key, went flying into the box and we gave up the edge because of it. Additionally, he ran into Bernard and took him out of the play. Milano had a poor read backside and was slow to fit off the GT pull action away. All that combined we were -1 to the playside when we should have been +1 had everyone done their job correctly.

All I know is that our front seven do not stop the run well and lack a pass rush.  Bad combination!  Our DB’s have to make far too many tackles.  

[HoofHearted]

58 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

So you are saying it’s not about the people but it’s about people that know how to do the job? It seems like that’s a serious contradiction. I want the personnel on the field that are more likely to do the correct thing 

I assumed you wanted more 4-3 for size. If it’s because you think Dorian Williams fits the run better that’s a different story. He hasn’t been consistent which is why he hasn’t broken the starting lineup.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

On 11/17/2025 at 9:47 AM, CirclnWagons said:

You can’t have d tackles get manhandled one on one with a 180lb linebacker. Bernard is solid as the come in coverage but his small frame is a huge liability if those interior lineman can’t consistently warrant a double team 

On 11/17/2025 at 2:30 PM, HoofHearted said:

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we didn't run any 3-4. Marino must be getting it confused with our Dime package if that's indeed what he said.

Seemed like they played a bit of 4-3 under 

 

41 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I assumed you wanted more 4-3 for size. If it’s because you think Dorian Williams fits the run better that’s a different story. He hasn’t been consistent which is why he hasn’t broken the starting lineup.

This is an example IMO 

 

 

[HoofHearted]

1 minute ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

 

 

This is an example IMO 

 

 

Great example! Dorian fits way too wide instead of fitting tight off the down down. Should have been a tackle for loss, but because he’s two steps too wide it hit for 7-8. His initial attack step and read are good in that clip. His angle is too flat which is why he works to wide instead of working a more downfield angle to fit tight.

[WideNine]

Traditionally, the Bills have never been very good at stopping the run.

 

We need players that can better anchor at 1-tech. We have Jones, but he isn't getting younger and each season gets dinged...likely a scenario that happens more vs less frequently.

 

Folks are high on Walker, but as Jerry O. has mentioned perception has not quite matched reality. He is a rookie who is not there yet and needs to grow into the role, but shows some promise. They could use another young 1T to add to the rotation and depth whose strength is run stuffing over the penetration qualities they tend to prioritize.

 

LB is an interesting take. Teams either have thumpers and as we have seen with TB they are great at filling gaps and stopping the run, but they cannot skate with TEs and RBs as receivers.

 

The Bills prioritized smaller LBs with some speed, but they get blown up and injured when asked to take on blockers and tackle RBs...especially if your DL cannot anchor and be gap sound.

 

Dorian is more of a thumper that does a great job as a spy mirror or playing downhill near the line. So we have some situational packages that may help hide the warts.

 

Would be great if the Bills could find a unicorn at LB with size and speed and a knack for finding the right gap and finishing tackles.

 

I think Taron's play has tailed off too and that has not helped and we may need an upgrade at nickel if Father time is just catching up to him.

 

 

 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

I assumed you wanted more 4-3 for size. If it’s because you think Dorian Williams fits the run better that’s a different story. He hasn’t been consistent which is why he hasn’t broken the starting lineup.

Well I’m not doing that. Or allowing that as fair reasoning. If you think the guys are playing because they are the best and that’s immune from arguments…no. This coach is absolutely clueless. Tarron Johnson flat out sucks. He never comes out. Except for the 3 or 4 times a month he gets hurt. Cam Lewis has been better. Just because he’s not starting, doesn’t mean the coach is right. Bernard is clearly not 100% The guy has been absolutely awful. Thompson is significantly better but probably won’t play. Anyone still think Tre White belongs out there? A guy who was washed 3 full years ago? Nope only the coach. 31 should be out there no question. Last year Bishop couldn’t get on the field. Rapp and Hamlin were “too good” I guess. How did that age? This coach is ***** clueless. I want 3 LBs on the field. And I love Dorian Williams. He plays fast and furious. I’ll live with the growing pains at least he’s physical enough to play through contact 

Edited 16 hours ago by Brianmoorman4jesus

[Sharky7337]

Can you at least take me to dinner first?

[stuvian]

we can't tackle and we can't rush the passer. Other than that our defense is great

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Well I’m not doing that. Or allowing that as fair reasoning. If you think the guys are playing because they are the best and that’s immune from arguments…no. This coach is absolutely clueless. Tarron Johnson flat out sucks. He never comes out. Except for the 3 or 4 times a month he gets hurt. Cam Lewis has been better. Just because he’s not starting, doesn’t mean the coach is right. Bernard is clearly not 100% The guy has been absolutely awful. Thompson is significantly better but probably won’t play. Anyone still think Tre White belongs out there? A guy who was washed 3 full years ago? Nope only the coach. 31 should be out there no question. Last year Bishop couldn’t get on the field. Rapp and Hamlin were “too good” I guess. How did that age? This coach is ***** clueless. I want 3 LBs on the field. And I love Dorian Williams. He plays fast and furious. I’ll live with the growing pains at least he’s physical enough to play through contact 

 

You are wrong on Dorian though. You might love him, but he makes sooo many mental mistakes as @HoofHearted has just demonstrated some examples of. Now I agree with you the starters have been horrid, so I am at "nothing much to lose" stage - but I do not expect Dorian to be transformational for this defense. He still doesn't understand what he sees with any consistency.

 

As for Bishop last year, he was on the field and he was making killer mistakes consistently. The light has gone on with him since Poyer went alongside him. So if you want to blame the Bills for not having a trur vet in the room to work with him in 2024, be my guest. But arguing he should have played more in 2024.... no. Sorry. He shouldn't. He was a liability out there. 

 

 

[No_Matter_What]

On 11/17/2025 at 3:01 PM, quincy said:

We, seemingly by design, want undersized penetrating DT's and mobile coverage linebackers.

 

The opposing offense then looks to keep running the ball because we are undersized and therefore have difficulty stoppin the run.

 

Then those two undersized groups are always the ones that are the most injured and also the area where we have no adequate level backups. 

 

Our DT rotation is just plain pitfiul - rookies, PS, PED and last legs DQ. At the next level, 8 and 58 just don't pass the eye test.

 

We are forever going to be drafting 215lb linebackers & 285lb defensive tackles, the numbers on the field will be different but the results will be the same. 

 

I'd be interested to try a 3-4 alignment with Rousseau Walker and Bosa with Fox Thompson Williams and Solomon behind, it may not work but status quo will not either, especially in the postseason.   

T.J. Sanders. - 297LBs

Walker - 331 LBs

[Sierra Foothills]

On 11/16/2025 at 5:56 PM, Maine-iac said:

If we got healthy I feel like this defense might actually be able to play some pass defense and then if we got a negative play here or there and puts teams in longer yardage on 3rd down we might get off the field.  I'm not sure a McDermott/Beane defense is ever going to be great against the run.  The combination of all 3tech DT's and small LB's is ripe for getting moved by any decent running team.  We play defense like the Manning era Colts.  Try to get a lead and force them to throw and make mistakes.

 

Spot on.

 

What we don't have is Dwight Freeney and Robertt Mathis coming off the edges. The Bills don't create enough pressure when only rushing 4.

 

On 11/16/2025 at 5:58 PM, LabattBlue said:

BB paid out a lot in extensions for Rousseau, Bernard & Benford and all have underperformed.  

 

Rousseau's played well this year. Benford had his best game of the season and finally looked like himself again. Bernard has been horrible.

 

On 11/16/2025 at 9:02 PM, Norcalbillsfan said:

2 weeks in a row I've seen him blocked from the hash into the sidelines by a TE. Rough to watch. But if we are talking about play falling off a cliff, holy Bernard. He looks absolutely lost on the feild, like he doesn't know what hes supposed to be doing in certain coverages. I dont get it.

 

it's interesting how some feel Bernard has played worse while others feel Milano has played worse. While I think Bernard's been worse, neither has been good enough and their shortcomings are physical.

 

On 11/16/2025 at 6:27 PM, cage said:

Did Hairston play today??  I don't think I saw him a single time

 

On 11/16/2025 at 6:29 PM, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

i saw him once. I didn’t see Hancock at all. Would love to know the snap counts. 

 

There were 70 defensive snaps (too many).

 

Tre White played 34 while Hairston played 36.

 

Benford played all 70.

 

On 11/17/2025 at 11:13 AM, OldNMBillsFan said:

Some other interesting stats on the D.

The Bills are tied for 8th in forcing the opponent to punt. They force an average of 3.9 punts a game.

They are tied for 14th in points allowed per game with allowing an average 22.9 points a game.

The Bills D is 9th in takeaways with 13.

The Bills D is tied for 5th in tackles for a loss. They are averaging 5.6 tackles for a loss per game.

The Bills D is allowing 322.7 yards per game putting them at 13th.

The Bills D is tied for 10th in sacks with 26.

 

The big runs are hard to watch, and the D needs to do a better job at stopping them. But in my opinion the sky is not falling. When you look at the stats that matter, Forcing the opposition to punt, takeaways, and points allowed per game, they are better than most teams.

 

Great stuff! The bolded is particularly interesting.

 

Also on a per game basis, the Bills D is:

• 2nd against the pass.
• 31st against the run.
• 12th in total yards per game.

So while they're a middling and average defense yardage-wise, they're second-best against the pass, second-worst against the run, and in the top half of the league overall.

 

On 11/17/2025 at 4:49 PM, HoofHearted said:

We are built to be a penetrating, movement based, front. Inherently this will lead to you getting gashed every once in a while, but should lead to far more disruptives than just sitting back and reading. Key reads and, in conjunction, initial attack steps off those reads can absolutely improve with coaching and reps.

 

Our issue right now just seems to be age, on both ends really. You have young guys still learning and growing into the scheme while getting used to the speed of the pro game. On the flip side there’s guys who have lost a step and it’s showing as well. If you’re a half step slow in the trenches it’s the difference in making a tackle for a loss vs. getting reached or washed in the run game.

 

I started going through this weekends game today and was actually encouraged with what I saw from the defensive line, though admittedly I only got a few series in. Backers struggled with reads. Both Dorian and Milano were noticeably slow on some plays. Taron fit incorrectly on one. LBs not working the plus consistently on zone.

 

Overall we do look a lot better than we did earlier in the year, though admittedly I haven’t dissected the stuff from earlier in the year outside of just what I saw watching the game. 

 

Of the dozens of takes about the Bills defensive shortcomings in this topic, I 100% agree only with yours.

 

I'd been saying almost all year that the 4 veteran additions of Bosa, Hoecht, Larry O, and Shaq Thompson plus the 6 rookie additions of Hairston, Sanders, Jackson, Walker, Hancock and Strong would eventually gel and become a cohesive and above average defense.

 

The above players have missed a total of 45 man/games and counting in 10 weeks.

 

Add the 24 man/games missed by Ed Oliver, Epenesa, Bernard, Dorian, Milano, Benford, Tre White, Taron, and Rapp and you've lost 69 man/games in 10 weeks. Even subtracting Dorian Strong and Jordan Hancock's 7 each and your still missing 5.5 core defensive players each week.

 

The only core defenders who've played every game this year are Rousseau, Bosa, and Cam Lewis... just 3 players. And both Bosa and Rousseau have played through injuries.

 

You simply can't play effective defense when virtually every week you're trotting out a different group. Run defense requires precise fits and a clear understanding of assignments. Changing schemes for situational football is a near impossibility... maybe this is why there've been so many injuries in practice... because the coaches are trying to get enough reps to where the players can play instinctively.

 

Injuries and to a lesser degree suspensions are the sole reason for the poor defense this year. The fact that the Bills are middle of the road statistically is actually admirable under the circumstances.

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Sierra Foothills

[Solomon Grundy]

12 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Great example! Dorian fits way too wide instead of fitting tight off the down down. Should have been a tackle for loss, but because he’s two steps too wide it hit for 7-8. His initial attack step and read are good in that clip. His angle is too flat which is why he works to wide instead of working a more downfield angle to fit tight.

Anybody else think Logan Wilson would have been a good pickup at the deadline?

[Sierra Foothills]

43 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Anybody else think Logan Wilson would have been a good pickup at the deadline?

 

I was trying to watch Wilson last night against the Raiders to figure out if he's lost a step. It was hard to tell.

 

The biggest mistake the Bills have made recently at linebacker was not re-signing Tyrel Dodson which they had two chances to do.

 

"In 2023 he competed for the starting middle linebacker position in the wake of Edmunds' departure in free agency, but lost out to Terrel Bernard, who had missed most of preseason. Despite this, Dodson would be thrust into the starting lineup himself when All-Pro Matt Milano suffered a season-ending leg fracture. Dodson finished the season with 10 starts and a career-high in playing time, with most of his snaps being on run defense. He was also graded as the Bills' most-improved player that season by Pro Football Focus, improving his score to 89.5, the second highest among linebackers league-wide, from a 2022 score of 48.4."

 

He was signed by Seattle in 2024 and started 9 games for them before being waived in November. He was then signed by the Dolphins.

 

"In Week 17, Dodson recorded 15 tackles, an interception, and a pass breakup in a 20-3 win over the Cleveland Browns, earning AFC Defensive Player of the Week. On March 13, 2025, Dodson re-signed with the Dolphins on a two-year, $8.25 million contract."

 

Dodson has good size and elite explosiveness. He's a better linebacker by far than anyone on the Bills current roster. But you know McDermott loves Bernard... probably sees himself in Bernard...

 

[corta765]

Lets talk what? lol

[quincy]

3 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

T.J. Sanders. - 297LBs

Walker - 331 LBs

 

I know that we have drafted these two and their weights but our starting combination of Oliver and Jones at 287lbs & 320lbs just appear undersized, at least visually, compared to some other NFL DL, you look at those players and think "wow, this guy is massive" and they appear stout and diffcult to move in the trenches.  

[milfandcookies]

Love talking about the D

[DrDawkinstein]

 

 

This is yards AFTER CONTACT. So even if we are making the fits, we arent getting it done.

 

Babich needs to go, and McD needs to follow him. This is horrendous and costing us Championship opportunities as we waste Josh's career.

[JP51]

On 11/16/2025 at 8:55 PM, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

I just don't think it does improve. I really don't. This just is what it is.

 

Undersized LB's who aren't what we thought they were (Bernard) or aren't what they used to be (Milano). DT's that are more suited for getting up field than stout run stuffers. No Oliver. No Hoecht (who's injection really revolutionized our pass rush).

 

And on top of all of that, this is the ole' "bend but don't break" (vomit) Defense. They just don't focus enough on the run. They practically *want* teams to run all over them. And the soft zone is easy to find holes in. That's simply not going to change while McDermott's here.

 

All you can hope for is guys to play with their hair on fire when it matters. But I just don't see much changing. Too many spots where guys just aren't good enough and the scheme is just broken.

Pray for turnovers... maybe light a candle... 

[Avisan]

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

This is yards AFTER CONTACT. So even if we are making the fits, we arent getting it done.

 

Babich needs to go, and McD needs to follow him. This is horrendous and costing us Championship opportunities as we waste Josh's career.

You recognize that firing coaches is an absurd response to players being in the right position but not able to finish the play, right?