What's wrong with Josh?

[SectionC3]

48 minutes ago, zow2 said:

There's a few things that bother me about Allen right now.

 

I've never thought he was a great pocket passer, but he's been ineffective lately.  He's not anticipating guys breaking open but instead mostly throwing to stationary receivers not guys on the run.  He's back to throwing frozen ropes no touch on the ball whatsoever.  He's scared to throw picks and it's in his head.

 

When QBs get into trouble they tend to use their legs to move the chains and get going.   You don't see Josh running at all really... is that because he's injured and doesn't want to take a hit? is he scared to fumble? has he lost a step nearing 30 years old?  He is allowed to slide, he doesn't have to initiate contact on runs.

 

When you re-watch those games last season, his best games he's running around, throwing while scrambling to WRs breaking open, it's great stuff.  I'm just not seeing the same guy.  His magic is when he does that.   He had one throw like that yesterday, to Hawes when he ran up in the pocket away from pressure.  That was a nice instinctive play.

 

Being anchored in the pocket is not his game.  

 

 

I stand by my view that he was concussed against NE.  
 

Also, it’s not an issue when Cook is going for 216, but I do feel like he sees the field better from the gun.  Getting to the line faster to allow Brady to help in his ear might be a good idea. 

[Avisan]

1 minute ago, Andrew Son said:

I completely agree.  I don't care if I never see another hurdle, stiff arm, or "cue the circus music" backyard play again.  Get us into the right play at the line, identify the pressure, and run the play that is called on time and within the structure of the offense.

 

The excuse train is out of control.  First we were too pass happy and one dimensional, putting too much on Josh.  And we were running Josh too much risking the franchise.  Then we neutered him and were not running him enough.  Now we run too much and Josh just can't get into a rhythm!  Our run game and oline is just too good!

Yeah, the goalposts do seem to shift constantly.  Posters want Allen paid obviously, also a top O-line, and big-name receivers, AND an elite defense (since when our defense is merely average it's a travesty), and also we need to draft elite talents while drafting in the last 8 picks of the round every year, or trade for them with similarly devalued draft picks, etc.

 

Like the one coherent criticism you can make of this team is that it favors consistency via mid-range contracts to maintain depth and continuity vs. cap-managed peaks and troughs to boost odds in specific "all-in" years.

[Billsflyer12]

14 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

1. He's a rhythm passer who thrives with 30 plus passes per game

 

2. prefers shot gun

 

3. likes throwing to speed receivers in 11 personnel.

 

We built an offence basically the exact opposite of that lol

He also allowed this to happen.  He is to much of a yes man to demand different if he wanted it to be different.

[CirclnWagons]

Feel like you gotta have some level of trust to seed one right in between two outstretched defenders or launch one down the seem for 50 or 60 yards and the receivers just haven’t earned that trust level so far this year. Has Josh missed some blatantly open and easy throws? Absolutely! But you can’t discount the mental game that goes into trying to throw subpar receivers open either. Bottom line, we need an NFL caliber #1 receiver option

[Sweats]

I still say that JA is missing the fire in his eyes........maybe married life has something to do with it and maybe he's truly mind-stewing on Hailee's comments that, "he's more than just a football player", but something is missing.

[tigerthelion]

45 minutes ago, Andrew Son said:

That's always been the case.  He prefers to see an open target and then rifle it in rather than anticipate.  That's why we had all that talk about limited RAC years ago.  Hard to get RAC when a stationary target gets hit standing in a zone.  His bread and butter were those deep ins to Diggs.

 

It's also why all these "expert" all-22 breakdowns claiming "who is he supposed to throw to?" are basically useless.  You rarely see guys just running free, but based on leverage you can throw them open.  

 

Thats has not always been the case at all. He made plenty of tight window throws and anticipatory throws last year.     You see guys running free all the time if you watch other games on Sundays.   The receivers he has this year are so bad, I am not even sure you can throw them open.  They can't even make a basic catch along the sidelines without stepping out of bounds.  

Edited 1 hour ago by tigerthelion

[QB Bills]

Some oft-repeated claims in this thread that need to cleared up:

 

1. Brady/Manning won/didn't win because of blah blah blah: Brady won more than half of his super bowls scoring less than 30 points. One of them by scoring 13. Peyton Manning was a much better QB earlier in his career when he couldn't get over the hump than he was in that year he won with the Broncos. As always, lets not conflate team accomplishments with individual success. Defense is an important part of championship teams almost always. The Bills under Sean McDermott have been borderline awful on that side of the ball for most playoff games since he's been the coach. Josh Allen has been mostly incredible in the postseason but he literally has zero margin for error because of the other side of the ball.

 

2. The receivers can't separate: Pretty much the same group as last year. And if this was any other QB that fans on here like to rag on (Tua, Lamar, etc), we'd definitely hear the familiar refrain of "this isn't college...in the NFL, that's open" on a lot of these routes that people post here.

 

3. Getting married has affected Allen's game: Pretty sure there have been other QBs with wives who have done okay. This is just a ridiculous excuse that should not even be seriously debated. If Allen is that mentally fragile (spoiler alert: he's not), then this team has way bigger problems going forward.

[Andrew Son]

8 minutes ago, tigerthelion said:

 

Thats has not always been the case at all. He made plenty of tight window throws and anticipatory throws last year.     You see guys running free all the time if you watch other games on Sundays.   The receivers he has this year are so bad, I am not even sure you can throw them open.  They can't even make a basic catch along the sidelines without stepping out of bounds.  

Who were these better WR's we had last year?

[Big Turk]

7 minutes ago, QB Bills said:

Some oft-repeated claims in this thread that need to cleared up:

 

1. Brady/Manning won/didn't win because of blah blah blah: Brady won more than half of his super bowls scoring less than 30 points. One of them by scoring 13. Peyton Manning was a much better QB earlier in his career when he couldn't get over the hump than he was in that year he won with the Broncos. As always, lets not conflate team accomplishments with individual success. Defense is an important part of championship teams almost always. The Bills under Sean McDermott have been borderline awful on that side of the ball for most playoff games since he's been the coach. Josh Allen has been mostly incredible in the postseason but he literally has zero margin for error because of the other side of the ball.

 

2. The receivers can't separate: Pretty much the same group as last year. And if this was any other QB that fans on here like to rag on (Tua, Lamar, etc), we'd definitely hear the familiar refrain of "this isn't college...in the NFL, that's open" on a lot of these routes that people post here.

 

3. Getting married has affected Allen's game: Pretty sure there have been other QBs with wives who have done okay. This is just a ridiculous excuse that should not even be seriously debated. If Allen is that mentally fragile (spoiler alert: he's not), then this team has way bigger problems going forward.

 

Manning won a Super Bowl with the Colts in 2006 defeating the Bears 29-17.  It was the game that Devin Hester returned the opening kickoff for a TD...remember it clear as day still.

[tigerthelion]

Just now, Andrew Son said:

Who were these better WR's we had last year?

You know what, that's a good question and a great point.  Mack Hollins came up big against KC last year, particularly when Josh threw a dime for a touchdown, and it's hard to consider him a great WR.   I don't really have a great answer for that.  

[starrymessenger]

15 hours ago, Returntoglory said:

Married Life? Wife's on the left coast. I'm sure there are seperation issues for both.No longer a bachelor so he has needs..

Ok then every man his own wife if that's what it takes.

[CincyBillsFan]

5 minutes ago, Sweats said:

I still say that JA is missing the fire in his eyes........maybe married life has something to do with it and maybe he's truly mind-stewing on Hailee's comments that, "he's more than just a football player", but something is missing.

If this is true and I'm not convinced that it is, then it relates to the idea that to win a Super Bowl you have to navigate a very long season and you can't get to high or to low.  Allen may be deliberately tempering his emotions to achieve a more consistent high level performance over the long haul.

 

We fans have been crying about how every season is the same:  11 - 13 wins, #2 or 3 seeding, initial playoff victory or 2 and then a loss to the Chiefs or Bengals, next season, repeat the process again.  For 5 straight seasons we and more importantly the Bills organization have seen this play out. It really is the football version of the movie "Groundhog Day".

 

I am of the opinion that this off season they thought long and hard about how to break the cycle and one of their ideas was to convince Allen's to moderate his passion.  There is no need risking big hits by jumping over tacklers or attempting to run them over.  In fact the whole offense is playing a more restrained, deliberate style.  Sure part of it is due to the lack of WR talent but it looks like a plan to me. 

 

The only time they departed from this was in the 4th quarter against the Ravens when it was their ONLY chance to win the game.  In the losses to the Pats & Falcons, the Bills were close enough to believe they could eke out wins without Allen putting the cape on.  And they were almost right.

 

Until recently the Eagles were adopting a similar strategy but they have the advantage of having explosive WR's allowing them to switch to a more pass oriented offense on demand. If the Bills could get that one WR who would fill that role they might be able to make this more cautious approach work.  After all Mahomes over the last few seasons has been a very different regular season QB then what he is in the playoffs where his clearly turns the passion up big time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[starrymessenger]

Josh is quite capable of executing an electric passing game. We have all seen it, lots of it. But the Bills don't actually have a real passing game right now. It's just ancillary to and actually part of and an adjunct to the run game.

We talk a lot about players needing to be put in a position to succeed, to make the best use of their skills and aptitudes, including psychological. Josh Allen is playing in the wrong system. 

[CincyBillsFan]

11 minutes ago, Andrew Son said:

Who were these better WR's we had last year?

Cooper made some remarkable, big time NFL catches along the sidelines in some of the Bills biggest games last season.  He was clearly better on the boundary then any Bills WR this season.

 

Hollins had a knack for making big catches on the off script plays that are a big part of Allen's lethality.  He was clearly better at this then Moore, Shavers or Samuel. It remains to b seen how good Palmer is at this.

 

Coleman played much better last season (before the injury) then he's played this season.  He has clearly regressed and/or they are asking to do different things.

 

 Johnson was a dangerous 3rd back at catching passes downfield last season.  The only downfield throw to him this year resulted in a dropped TD pass against the Ravens.

 

Only Shakir & Kincaid have matched last seasons receiving production. 

[billsfan_34]

2 hours ago, BananaB said:

Well until I see it you never really set me straight. If he did I guess it proves he shouldn’t be head of scouting. Players gotta stay out of that ***** and it’s more on Beane. 

Ok ✅ 

[CincyBillsFan]

18 minutes ago, tigerthelion said:

You know what, that's a good question and a great point.  Mack Hollins came up big against KC last year, particularly when Josh threw a dime for a touchdown, and it's hard to consider him a great WR.   I don't really have a great answer for that.  

You answered your own question - Hollins had a knack for making those big off script receptions that you get with a guy like Allen at QB. And Cooper was a dangerous boundary WR who had big catches in several critical Bills games.

 

Sure, the Bills WR's last season were not great, they were at best average.  But last season the WR room was better then it has been this season and that is the crux of the problem.

 

 

[QB Bills]

34 minutes ago, QB Bills said:

Some oft-repeated claims in this thread that need to cleared up:

 

1. Brady/Manning won/didn't win because of blah blah blah: Brady won more than half of his super bowls scoring less than 30 points. One of them by scoring 13. Peyton Manning was a much better QB earlier in his career when he couldn't get over the hump than he was in that year he won with the Broncos. As always, lets not conflate team accomplishments with individual success. Defense is an important part of championship teams almost always. The Bills under Sean McDermott have been borderline awful on that side of the ball for most playoff games since he's been the coach. Josh Allen has been mostly incredible in the postseason but he literally has zero margin for error because of the other side of the ball.

 

2. The receivers can't separate: Pretty much the same group as last year. And if this was any other QB that fans on here like to rag on (Tua, Lamar, etc), we'd definitely hear the familiar refrain of "this isn't college...in the NFL, that's open" on a lot of these routes that people post here.

 

3. Getting married has affected Allen's game: Pretty sure there have been other QBs with wives who have done okay. This is just a ridiculous excuse that should not even be seriously debated. If Allen is that mentally fragile (spoiler alert: he's not), then this team has way bigger problems going forward.

Forgot one..

 

4. Josh Allen lobbied for Keon Coleman: The Bills didn't target Keon. The geniuses at OBD didn't have a preference at WR otherwise they wouldn't have traded down. They were going to take a receiver and were happy with whoever was left out of Worthy, Pearsall, Leggette, Coleman, McConkey. Unfortunately, with a 50/50 shot, they still guessed wrong. Don't think it can be overstated how badly McBeane and co have mismanaged the receiver room. And then for Beane to get on the radio, double down and make a complete ass of himself was just the cherry on top.

Edited 1 hour ago by QB Bills

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Andrew Son said:

I completely agree.  I don't care if I never see another hurdle, stiff arm, or "cue the circus music" backyard play again.  Get us into the right play at the line, identify the pressure, and run the play that is called on time and within the structure of the offense.

 

The excuse train is out of control.  First we we're too pass happy and one dimensional, putting too much on Josh.  And we we're running Josh too much risking the franchise.  Then we neutered him and were not running him enough.  Now we run too much and Josh just can't get into a rhythm!  Our run game and oline is just too good!

 

And my favorite- "he needs to get hit more to get into the game!"  

if you never saw another hurdle, stiff arm, or backyard play again McDermott and Co would have been gone 4yrs ago

 

 

[zow2]

25 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

The only time they departed from this was in the 4th quarter against the Ravens when it was their ONLY chance to win the game.  In the losses to the Pats & Falcons, the Bills were close enough to believe they could eke out wins without Allen putting the cape on.  And they were almost right.

 

That pass he threw late in the game vs Baltimore to Josh Palmer.  The one down the left sidelines perfectly over the outstretched LB..  I don't think he can make that throw these last 3 games.  The accuracy, the touch, the slump is too wonky.

[extrahammer]

35 minutes ago, tigerthelion said:

You know what, that's a good question and a great point.  Mack Hollins came up big against KC last year, particularly when Josh threw a dime for a touchdown, and it's hard to consider him a great WR.   I don't really have a great answer for that.  

I wouldn't consider him great, but I consider him worthy of being re-signed from last year, he gets seperation near the end zone and catches well. Plus I thought he was a good chemistry guy.