2025 OTAs are underway

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The mindset should be if there's a tie or even if it's close you give the job to the rookie because the rookie has the most room for improvement. We shouldn't be afraid of mental mistakes early in the season if the rookie is learning from those moments and ultimately playing better than the vet ever could in December and January.

O'Cyrus Torrence and the Ryan Bates competition is really the only thing I can lean on thinking back that this is the case.  He may rely more on his positional coaches when making that decision.

[BillsFanForever19]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The mindset should be if there's a tie or even if it's close you give the job to the rookie because the rookie has the most room for improvement. We shouldn't be afraid of mental mistakes early in the season if the rookie is learning from those moments and ultimately playing better than the vet ever could in December and January.

 

I completely agree with this. All things equal, it should go to the Rookie. Especially in this scenario where your Rookie is a Round 1 investment.

 

If you're looking at one guy who has reached their ceiling vs. another who hasn't and they're equal in a competition - you're delaying development by going with the vet.

[Paup 1995MVP]

On 6/13/2025 at 3:23 PM, Shaw66 said:

You don't say that Joe B went on to say this: 

 

Joe B was being respectful of Tre White.  I think it’s pretty clear what he means from watching mini camp.  

[Coach Tuesday]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The mindset should be if there's a tie or even if it's close you give the job to the rookie because the rookie has the most room for improvement. We shouldn't be afraid of mental mistakes early in the season if the rookie is learning from those moments and ultimately playing better than the vet ever could in December and January.

Totally agreed - always struck me as insecure coaching.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

That is definitely not McDermott's mindset. McDermott does it the way Gunner describes, which is that he favors the vet over the rookie until the rookie shows that he can execute his assignments play after play without mistakes. Mistakes. McDermott clearly values execution excellence over raw physical talent or potential.

 

Yeah and that mindset is why we once trotted AJ Klein onto the field in the divisional round instead of playing a rookie Dorian Williams. Klein knew the defense better but that doesn't help when your movement skills resemble the Tin Man. There is a part of me that worries the same thing will happen with Tre White and Hairston. Hopefully not though. McDermott said earlier this week the plan is to play a lot of young players on defense and reports from OTAs/minicamp said Hairston was being coached hard and getting better week over week. So I hope that they are expecting him to win the job, and that even if he is still making some mental mistakes McDermott will give him his runway early in the season to acclimate to the NFL and the team will be better for it in January.

[GunnerBill]

42 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

This was kind of a surprising post to read from you. As we've discussed CB post-Draft and I thought we agreed that White is likely to make the roster, but not a lock. Saying it's Hairston or White to Start and no other options would imply to me that he's a lock.

 

I don't believe it's just Hairston or White. I think it's very much more likely than not that's the case. But if Hairston isn't ready and White's struggles continue through Training Camp, I could see a scenario where something unexpected happens.

 

 

I don't think Tre is a lock for the roster. If Hairston looks good and wins the job and Tre is struggling I think them deciding they want to keep and invest in the young guys as depth is a possibility and Tre would be potentially available later in the year. That is what we have seen happen across the NFL with the new practice squad rules. 

 

But if Hairston struggles and they are not sure about throwing him out there I am 95% sure it will be Tre, even if pre-season is rough, because they know what Tre White on a football field in this defense looks like. Probably 5% it would be Dane. I think Strong and Ingram are pretty much 0% shots to start week 1 in the absence, of course, of injuries ahead of them.

 

I am not putting a huge amount of stock on him running with the 1s in June or his June performances. I am putting stock in what the Bills want and believe in from their corners.

 

And the Benford situation is not analogous. Benford was competing with a fellow rookie - Elam. There was no vet alternative. In the end I think they both played week 1 from memory because Dane was out and then Dane came in week 2 and they went to a job share (slanted initially in Benford's favour) at CB2.

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

That is definitely not McDermott's mindset. McDermott does it the way Gunner describes, which is that he favors the vet over the rookie until the rookie shows that he can execute his assignments play after play without mistakes. Mistakes. McDermott clearly values execution excellence over raw physical talent or potential.

 

Favours the vet over the rookie IF ALL ELSE IS EQUAL. Just to be absolutely clear. If a rookie is better he plays. They have started a ton of rookies early. The ones they haven't have generally not been good. Cook and Bernard the two exceptions and Bernard was not better as a rookie than Edmunds so that kinda made sense. 

Edited 22 hours ago by GunnerBill

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah and that mindset is why we once trotted AJ Klein onto the field in the divisional round instead of playing a rookie Dorian Williams. Klein knew the defense better but that doesn't help when your movement skills resemble the Tin Man. There is a part of me that worries the same thing will happen with Tre White and Hairston. Hopefully not though. McDermott said earlier this week the plan is to play a lot of young players on defense and reports from OTAs/minicamp said Hairston was being coached hard and getting better week over week. So I hope that they are expecting him to win the job, and that even if he is still making some mental mistakes McDermott will give him his runway early in the season to acclimate to the NFL and the team will be better for it in January.

 

And yet there were games almost a full 12 months later where Dorian Williams still resembled a spinning top, despite playing a ton of football in Milano's absence in the meantime. The very same Chiefs abused him in week 11 and the Ravens embarrassed him twice last season. His best game as a Bill, by far, was Jacksonville in week 3 and far from that being a catalyst for improvement it now looks like a swallow that didn't sniff a summer. I think we are close to the point where we have to admit his play recognition skills are not where they need to be and his understanding of the defense is a problem (and I liked Dorian coming out). 

[Brand J]

42 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And yet there were games almost a full 12 months later where Dorian Williams still resembled a spinning top, despite playing a ton of football in Milano's absence in the meantime. The very same Chiefs abused him in week 11 and the Ravens embarrassed him twice last season. His best game as a Bill, by far, was Jacksonville in week 3 and far from that being a catalyst for improvement it now looks like a swallow that didn't sniff a summer. I think we are close to the point where we have to admit his play recognition skills are not where they need to be and his understanding of the defense is a problem (and I liked Dorian coming out). 

Dorian Williams may just be one of those slow learners. I’ve been listening to a lot of reports these last few weeks and it’s come from more than one source that he was one of the better defenders on the field, that his coverage recognition looked markedly better than any other time in the past. He may finally be comfortable in the defense.

[YattaOkasan]

6 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Considering they paid more than a million more for Howard than White, at a position considered non-premium (as opposed to White), his release was more surprising than a White cut would be. Regardless of how many reps with the 1's he had.

 

You keep going back to these June reps with the 1's. I think, or at least hope, there's a communication breakdown in our discussion.

 

If you're saying as long as he continues running with the 1's, he's safe - I'd agree. But that's not the verbage you've been using. Your implication is that it doesn't matter how he looks, he ran with the 1's in June so he's safe.

 

My stance is that his run with the 1's in June were at least partly circumstantial. And given his mostly negative reports combined with Hairston getting up to speed, it's possible, if not likely, that time with the 1's will reduce if not come to an end in Training Camp. As opposed to OTA's, Training Camp is when they start positional battles and really start giving the Rookies heavy play. If he continues on the path he was on in OTA's, him running with the 1's in June will not matter as heavily as you're weighing it.

 

 

 

First off, Dane Jackson is only part of the equation. I personally don't believe he'll make the Roster. I think Dorian Strong will be one of those two open Roster spots outside of Benford, Hairston, and Taron.

 

I believe Hancock, being trained as a Cam Lewis clone, will fall under the Safety roster like Lewis did as a Backup Nickel/Safety. However, there's a scenario where they could feel he needs to focus solely on Nickel in Year 1. Which would complicate things on the CB roster as he's almost assuredly going to be here (we've never outright cut a Rookie before Round 6).

 

My discussion on Jackson comes down to your idea that if he looks better than Tre, it doesn't matter bc you can just put him in the Practice Squad and play Tre White. My point was if Jackson looks better than Tre, sticking him on the Practice Squad for a couple elevations doesn't help the team as we'd be only getting 2 elevations out of him while playing someone who looked worse.

 

I'd also add that I think Tre White could be brought back on the Practice Squad. No one was beating down the door for him this offseason. We got him for a small 2.2m guarantee. He didn't look great last season. If we were to cut him bc he didn't look great for us, I don't think anyone's going to be chomping at the bit to put him on their 53 for Week 1 cold.

 

There's much more at play here than Dane Jackson. There's the other Rookies, as I've discussed. There's also Ja'Marcus Ingram, who had a helluva game for us in Miami when we had to start him and is also a core Special Teamer. If Tre continues to performs poorly, any number of those players could take his place. I don't think Jackson is making it. But if Tre doesn't step up and earn his spot, I don't think it's crazy to think they feel Jackson is a safer bet as one of the last CB's.

 

 

This was kind of a surprising post to read from you. As we've discussed CB post-Draft and I thought we agreed that White is likely to make the roster, but not a lock. Saying it's Hairston or White to Start and no other options would imply to me that he's a lock.

 

I don't believe it's just Hairston or White. I think it's very much more likely than not that's the case. But if Hairston isn't ready and White's struggles continue through Training Camp, I could see a scenario where something unexpected happens.

 

In 2022, no one thought Christian Benford would start for us Week 1 over our 1st Round Pick and Dane Jackson. But that's just what happened. Just like in 2022, we took Strong in Round 6 after taking Hairston in Round 1. If it played out the same way where our vet options didn't wow and our Round 1 Pick wasn't ready, but our Round 6 Pick wowed - I could see history repeating itself. I don't think it's likely. But it happened in 2022.

 

I could also foresee a scenario (again, albeit not likely) that if White and Hairston looked bad and especially if there were injuries and Jaiire Alexander was still floating out there that they may hop on the phone. 

 

And yes, although I don't see it as likely, there is a scenario where I could see them thinking Jackson looks better than Tre at this stage and he gets the spot over him and is a bridge starter, as we've used him in the past. But only if Hairston and Strong aren't ready and Tre looks bad.

 

All this to say, Hairston or White is almost definitely the plan. But any number of unexpected things could happen where it's neither.

 

 

Yes, I completely agree. The basis of this entire discussion stems from my original post that if Tre continues on the path that the reports from OTA's have said, he may not be safe.

 

Of course it's early. And that's been the crux of the discussion. The guy I'm going back and forth with wants to say that since he ran with the 1's in June, it means he's safe come September. My stance is that if things were to continue looking negative for Tre through July and August - it doesn't matter where he ran in June.

 

And again, I want him to make the team. I want him to look better. But I think people are in their feels when it comes to Tre and want to vehemently argue anyone who even points at the possibility that they may not be a lock. If reports were coming in that he was looking good or if we didn't have such a logjam at CB, I wouldn't even be discussing it.

I think we’re close on opinion and just talking past each other. We only have the OTA data to go on. It’s poor because small sample size and least meaningful reps. But from this data I put more stock in the fact that Tre is only playing with the ones than he’s not playing well.
 

 I am not at all saying he’s safe for September. I’m saying playing with ones is more important than playing poorly. If he keeps playing poorly with ones I think he makes the team cause who you play with matters more than how you play (I think this is a Brucism).  
 

So maybe we’re talking about continuing on the same path differently. You presumably mean badly and against other players and I mean badly with the ones. But if you think he gets cut playing badly with the ones into TC then we’ll have to see if the situation arises. Otherwise we agree on the outcomes.  Plays better with ones and makes the team or plays badly with second string and is cut. 

[Pete]

13 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think he probably does. I reject the "he doesn't trust rookies". If they are better they play. I can't think of a single rookie he has sat who later we went "okay maybe he should have played" maybe Cook > Singletary as a rookie. But if there are ties I do think he tends towards experience. He hates mental mistakes more than he hates the guys just being out "athleted" (not a word I know).

McDermott plays rookies, if they win the job.  Benford and Cyrus come to mind.  Keon and Dalton.  It was Marv who didn’t play rookies, 30 years ago

[stevewin]

Regarding the McD rookie/vet playing discussion - one thing he emphasized in one of last week's PCs is not putting someone out there if their "teammates don't trust him".  A reminder that there are things factored in that we as fans don't necessarily know anything about.

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, stevewin said:

Regarding the McD rookie/vet playing discussion - one thing he emphasized in one of last week's PCs is not putting someone out there if their "teammates don't trust him".  A reminder that there are things factored in that we as fans don't necessarily know anything about.

 

Was clear with Bishop last year IMO. He was out of position so often his teammates did not trust him and it was affecting how they played their own responsibilities.

[YattaOkasan]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Was clear with Bishop last year IMO. He was out of position so often his teammates did not trust him and it was affecting how they played their own responsibilities.

I think Dorian 2 years ago is another good example. Giants ran the same play twice and TB was pretty grumpy Dorian didn’t see it the second time. 

[Beck Water]

On 6/13/2025 at 9:31 AM, oldmanfan said:

I think Ingram may very well start the season as CB2.

 

Never say never, but that would probably be a bad sign.

 

When Douglas was injured last season, Ingram came in to finish the game.  But after that, it was Elam.

Ingram was ahead of Elam to be game day active because of Ingram's building ST chops, not because the Bills thought he was a better CB

 

Ingram has started one game at CB - the Week 18 game vs NE when we were resting players

[Beck Water]

24 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

I think Dorian 2 years ago is another good example. Giants ran the same play twice and TB was pretty grumpy Dorian didn’t see it the second time. 

 

Same was true of 'Nard Dog himself his rookie year.   The 1 game he started (that close loss to the Jets) did NOT make me optimistic when McDermott announced an MLB competition between Bernard, Spector, and Dodson (Williams was never in it, and Klein fell out rapidly if he was in at all)

But he came out his second year and Did That Thing.  And Williams was OK last season - not Milano but OK

We'll see on Bishop but there's a pretty strong history of defenders being Lost in Space in McDermott's system their 1st season and doing much better their 2nd.  Lord knows we need him to.

Edited 7 hours ago by Beck Water

[YattaOkasan]

27 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Same was true of 'Nard Dog himself his rookie year.   The 1 game he started (that close loss to the Jets) did NOT make me optimistic when McDermott announced an MLB competition between Bernard, Spector, and Dodson (Williams was never in it, and Klein fell out rapidly if he was in at all)

But he came out his second year and Did That Thing.  And Williams was OK last season - not Milano but OK

We'll see on Bishop but there's a pretty strong history of defenders being Lost in Space in McDermott's system their 1st season and doing much better their 2nd.  Lord knows we need him to.

Yeah another good example though Edmund’s was still clear preferred starter and with Dorian he was the preference after Milano got hurt. 

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Was clear with Bishop last year IMO. He was out of position so often his teammates did not trust him and it was affecting how they played their own responsibilities.

I'm responding to this and your earlier comments about the vet playing only if all things are equal. I agree with both comments, but I think it's important to understand what all things being equal means. 

 

In McDermott world, the best players and the guys who get to play are the guys who execute their assignments correctly play after play with very few mistakes. Being better doesn't mean simply being physically better, which is your point about Bishop last season.

 

McDermott's defense depends on everyone executing, because each of the defenders is relying on each of his teammates to be in the right place. 

 

In the case of White, he will be" better" then Hairston if he executes the defense correctly 19 out of 20 times and Hairston executes correctly 9 out of 10 times, even though Hairston may be able to cover more ground than White. This is true because the coaches can adjust assignments for the entire defense to make up for the fact that the cornerback is slow, but there is no way to adjust the defense for random mistakes that leave a player out of position. 

 

So when you say if White and Hairston are equal, White will play because he's a veteran, that means in my mind that Hairston has to learn to play the position as flawlessly mentally as White does for him to be better than White. It doesn't matter to McDermott that Hairston can cover more ground, just like it didn't matter to McDermott that Elam had better physical attributes than some other cornerbacks on the team last year. And that, as you said, is why Bishop didn't see the field a lot last year. 

 

That's why I think Whites chances of starting are better than a lot of people give him credit for. Once White learns how the defense has evolved over the last year, his execution in terms of reading what's going on on the field and making the right decisions will be more or less flawless. That's what made him so valuable to McDermott in the first place. If he's playing and offenses are targeting him deep, than the Bills will adjust safety responsibilities and defensive calls to take care of that exposure. Yes, it weakens the defense to make those adjustments, and you'd rather not do it, but McDermott won't play a more physically able player who makes mistakes in his reads and decision making.

I think Dorian Williams and Milano are another example of the same thing. My view is that Williams is a better player than Milano physically. He's got more speed now, and he attacks the ball better. 

 

However, his decision making in past protection is not as good as Milanos, and his overall execution of the defense is not as good, play after play. So Williams sits behind Milano despite his physical superiority. 

 

Part of what makes McDermott a good coach is that he is very clear to his players about this. Bishop understands today, and he understood last year at this time, that if he wants to play he needs to fit into the team concept of the defense more or less flawlessly. Understand what's happening and make the right decisions quickly or you don't play.

[SoonerBillsFan]

28 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm responding to this and your earlier comments about the vet playing only if all things are equal. I agree with both comments, but I think it's important to understand what all things being equal means. 

 

In McDermott world, the best players and the guys who get to play are the guys who execute their assignments correctly play after play with very few mistakes. Being better doesn't mean simply being physically better, which is your point about Bishop last season.

 

McDermott's defense depends on everyone executing, because each of the defenders is relying on each of his teammates to be in the right place. 

 

In the case of White, he will be" better" then Hairston if he executes the defense correctly 19 out of 20 times and Hairston executes correctly 9 out of 10 times, even though Hairston may be able to cover more ground than White. This is true because the coaches can adjust assignments for the entire defense to make up for the fact that the cornerback is slow, but there is no way to adjust the defense for random mistakes that leave a player out of position. 

 

So when you say if White and Hairston are equal, White will play because he's a veteran, that means in my mind that Hairston has to learn to play the position as flawlessly mentally as White does for him to be better than White. It doesn't matter to McDermott that Hairston can cover more ground, just like it didn't matter to McDermott that Elam had better physical attributes than some other cornerbacks on the team last year. And that, as you said, is why Bishop didn't see the field a lot last year. 

 

That's why I think Whites chances of starting are better than a lot of people give him credit for. Once White learns how the defense has evolved over the last year, his execution in terms of reading what's going on on the field and making the right decisions will be more or less flawless. That's what made him so valuable to McDermott in the first place. If he's playing and offenses are targeting him deep, than the Bills will adjust safety responsibilities and defensive calls to take care of that exposure. Yes, it weakens the defense to make those adjustments, and you'd rather not do it, but McDermott won't play a more physically able player who makes mistakes in his reads and decision making.

I think Dorian Williams and Milano are another example of the same thing. My view is that Williams is a better player than Milano physically. He's got more speed now, and he attacks the ball better. 

 

However, his decision making in past protection is not as good as Milanos, and his overall execution of the defense is not as good, play after play. So Williams sits behind Milano despite his physical superiority. 

 

Part of what makes McDermott a good coach is that he is very clear to his players about this. Bishop understands today, and he understood last year at this time, that if he wants to play he needs to fit into the team concept of the defense more or less flawlessly. Understand what's happening and make the right decisions quickly or you don't play.

As is most of the time, I wanted to reply, but you summed it up excellently, sir.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, YattaOkasan said:

I think Dorian 2 years ago is another good example. Giants ran the same play twice and TB was pretty grumpy Dorian didn’t see it the second time. 

 

Yea. Dorian wouldn't see it if you ran it 5 times straight. If he can play run and hit football he is a playmaker. If you make him think after the snap he is screwed.

30 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm responding to this and your earlier comments about the vet playing only if all things are equal. I agree with both comments, but I think it's important to understand what all things being equal means. 

 

In McDermott world, the best players and the guys who get to play are the guys who execute their assignments correctly play after play with very few mistakes. Being better doesn't mean simply being physically better, which is your point about Bishop last season.

 

McDermott's defense depends on everyone executing, because each of the defenders is relying on each of his teammates to be in the right place. 

 

In the case of White, he will be" better" then Hairston if he executes the defense correctly 19 out of 20 times and Hairston executes correctly 9 out of 10 times, even though Hairston may be able to cover more ground than White. This is true because the coaches can adjust assignments for the entire defense to make up for the fact that the cornerback is slow, but there is no way to adjust the defense for random mistakes that leave a player out of position. 

 

So when you say if White and Hairston are equal, White will play because he's a veteran, that means in my mind that Hairston has to learn to play the position as flawlessly mentally as White does for him to be better than White. It doesn't matter to McDermott that Hairston can cover more ground, just like it didn't matter to McDermott that Elam had better physical attributes than some other cornerbacks on the team last year. And that, as you said, is why Bishop didn't see the field a lot last year. 

 

That's why I think Whites chances of starting are better than a lot of people give him credit for. Once White learns how the defense has evolved over the last year, his execution in terms of reading what's going on on the field and making the right decisions will be more or less flawless. That's what made him so valuable to McDermott in the first place. If he's playing and offenses are targeting him deep, than the Bills will adjust safety responsibilities and defensive calls to take care of that exposure. Yes, it weakens the defense to make those adjustments, and you'd rather not do it, but McDermott won't play a more physically able player who makes mistakes in his reads and decision making.

I think Dorian Williams and Milano are another example of the same thing. My view is that Williams is a better player than Milano physically. He's got more speed now, and he attacks the ball better. 

 

However, his decision making in past protection is not as good as Milanos, and his overall execution of the defense is not as good, play after play. So Williams sits behind Milano despite his physical superiority. 

 

Part of what makes McDermott a good coach is that he is very clear to his players about this. Bishop understands today, and he understood last year at this time, that if he wants to play he needs to fit into the team concept of the defense more or less flawlessly. Understand what's happening and make the right decisions quickly or you don't play.

 

For sure better means more than physically better. 

[ColoradoBills]

5 hours ago, stevewin said:

Regarding the McD rookie/vet playing discussion - one thing he emphasized in one of last week's PCs is not putting someone out there if their "teammates don't trust him".  A reminder that there are things factored in that we as fans don't necessarily know anything about.

 

Good point.  Also, expecting a rookie to play a full NFL schedule PLUS playoffs is a lot to ask.