2025 OTAs are underway

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

The problem is going back to the Levi Wallace example is against elite QB's they picked on him.  We also had two excellent safeties in Poyer and Hyde that could help cover up his deficiencies. We don't have that anymore as we were 24th in pass defense last year.  We need better play out of our CB#2 this year than what Douglas gave us the second half of last year.  I'm not sure White or Jackson are capable of that.  That's why it's critical that Hairston has a great training camp and earns the starting job opposite Benford imo because we still might have below average safety play.

 

 

Agree. We need better corner play at CB2 now than we did when we had peak Hyde and Poyer. 

[Warriorspikes51]

19 hours ago, syhuang said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hmmm Carter's arms look much bigger than last year IMO.   Maybe there's hope for him to be an effective rotational piece 

[YattaOkasan]

8 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Yes and it's funny because you mentioned him in your earlier post...

 

In 2023, before Terrel Bernard was formally given the job, there was an open competition for Starter at Middle Linebacker. Famously, McDermott still hadn't named a starting Middle Linebacker deep into Training Camp and openly told the press someone had to step up.

 

Everyone from Bernard to Dodson to Spector and Klein was given opportunities with the 1's as they searched for their starter. A.J. Klein ran with 1's in Training Camp and didn't make the roster.

 

It isn't uncommon anytime a position is up in the air or a Rookie is being eased in (in this case Hairston) that a veteran will run with the 1's, when the job likely won't be theirs.

 

I think you're putting too much stock in that right now. Especially since we haven't even gotten to Training Camp yet. If he were looking great, I'd say "yes, that's a good sign he'll make it". But that's not what's reportedly happening. If he continues to consistently have reports of "another bad day for Tre", he won't be running with the 1's for long and it's not far off from there to being lost in the numbers game.

 

I'm not guaranteeing he won't make it. But if things don't turn around, his running with the 1's in June isn't going to supercede his poor performance - as you suggest.

Thats a good example but I think the pertinent context is that there was an injury to the preferred starter (TB).  I think open competitions are sort of a different story than what were discussing with regard to CB.  Yes its a competition but its not nearly as open as MLB was.  I have not seen any reports suggesting that anyone but Benford, White, and Hairston have played first team CB.

 

To note I dont think White gets the starter job but I think its more likely than not that he makes the team because hes running with the first team.  I agree if he stops running with the ones then hes roster spot would be in jeopardy.  But if he keeps playing poorly with the ones all through camp and gets no reps with the twos I think he makes the team.  Is this your position too?  If your position is its too early to know then I agree.  If forced to put money down I would say he makes the team cause hes playing with the ones rather than saying hes getting cut because hes playing poorly.

Edited 23 hours ago by YattaOkasan

[MiracleAtRich1393]

1 hour ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

 

hmmm Carter's arms look much bigger than last year IMO.   Maybe there's hope for him to be an effective rotational piece 

Beane mentioned potentially some 1T plans for him 

[oldmanfan]

I think Ingram may very well start the season as CB2.

[HappyDays]

 

[Brand J]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Parrino is the second reporter to say the Bills drafted two corners in round 1 and 6, completely ignoring Jordan Hancock. Does this mean he’s been getting most of his time at safety? Or are they not counting nickel CB?

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, Brand J said:

As long as the player hasn’t suffered any major injuries or his body hasn’t broken down in other ways that compromise his movement, a player can retain his speed throughout his career. And I’ve heard coaches and players alike say that “strength and speed” are the last to leave you. Usain Bolt ran a 4.22 at 33 years old in sweat pants.
Terrell Owens is faster now than he was at the combine, three decades ago. Darrell Green, Don Beebe, James Lofton, etc. And it’s not just the speedsters - Doug Flutie said his speed was still the same when a reporter asked how fast he was (because he was an older player running around like a young one). If your body can avoid breaking down, you’ll still have your speed. Obviously that’s not the case with Tre.

 

 

There are exceptions.   Green and Lofton could still run late in their NFL careers.  Nature favors the lithe track-build.   Flutie and Owens claims are conjecture.   Some Tik-tok 35 yard dash with a laser pointer on a tripod being sold as a measuring device doesn't convince me that Owens runs a 4.4 at age 50.    That's why I referenced the infamous NFL veteran combine.   Legit times.   Finding an NFL veteran without your stipulations is not the norm.  There is a reason that Marquise Goodwin refused to play with any minor injury while with the Bills when he was training for the Olympics.   All of those inevitable "minor" muscle and joint injuries you get in the NFL compound and add ticks to those track times.    And of course, Usain Bolt is an irrelevant comp because he didn't play a contact sport.   And 4.22 would have been a couple lost steps for him.  

 

By 2020 Tre White had already lost a step in coverage.   And that was prior to the injuries.   Go back and watch him trying to run with the Rams last year.   Brutal.

[Brand J]

19 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

There are exceptions.   Green and Lofton could still run late in their NFL careers.  Nature favors the lithe track-build.   Flutie and Owens claims are conjecture.   Some Tik-tok 35 yard dash with a laser pointer on a tripod being sold as a measuring device doesn't convince me that Owens runs a 4.4 at age 50.    That's why I referenced the infamous NFL veteran combine.   Legit times.   Finding an NFL veteran without your stipulations is not the norm.  There is a reason that Marquise Goodwin refused to play with any minor injury while with the Bills when he was training for the Olympics.   All of those inevitable "minor" muscle and joint injuries you get in the NFL compound and add ticks to those track times.    And of course, Usain Bolt is an irrelevant comp because he didn't play a contact sport.   And 4.22 would have been a couple lost steps for him.  

 

By 2020 Tre White had already lost a step in coverage.   And that was prior to the injuries.   Go back and watch him trying to run with the Rams last year.   Brutal.

Yeah I don’t disagree with anything here, just pointing out that speed doesn’t necessarily drop off a cliff just because a player ages. Usain ran that time in sweats and without warming up, so if he had dedicated a couple months or so to running his fastest 40 at age 33…? I’m not so sure it would’ve been a couple of steps lost from his prime. Would it have been slower? Minuscule, certainly not by greater than a tenth (as evidenced by his 4.22). 
 

The wear and tear on the body is the biggest culprit for why one would drastically lose steps. If the body is well maintained and the player is lucky enough to avoid major injuries, they can continue making a living running with the young guys. 

[Cash]

24 minutes ago, Brand J said:

Parrino is the second reporter to say the Bills drafted two corners in round 1 and 6, completely ignoring Jordan Hancock. Does this mean he’s been getting most of his time at safety? Or are they not counting nickel CB?

 

The Bills, at least, seem to consider NCB and boundary CB as different positions, and also seem to think NCB and S are a lot closer to each other than either is to boundary CB.  We've seen a number of S/NCB depth guys - Siran Neal and Cam Lewis both come to mind - but very few boundary/nickel depth guys.  Jamarcus Ingram is about the only one, and even then he's only played on the boundary when there was no one else available.  Both Neal and Lewis have also filled in at boundary CB, but only when there were multiple injuries in the same game.

 

My guess is that Parrino has internalized that after a number of years covering this team, and was meaning "boundary corners" specifically.  Also worth noting: Parrino isn't allowed to report on where players are lining up, but he is able to witness it and remember.  It's possible that Hancock has been practicing exclusively at S all spring.  If that's the case, Parrino would probably not think of him as any kind of corner at this point.

[Paup 1995MVP]

1 hour ago, YattaOkasan said:

Thats a good example but I think the pertinent context is that there was an injury to the preferred starter (TB).  I think open competitions are sort of a different story than what were discussing with regard to CB.  Yes its a competition but its not nearly as open as MLB was.  I have not seen any reports suggesting that anyone but Benford, White, and Hairston have played first team CB.

 

To note I dont think White gets the starter job but I think its more likely than not that he makes the team because hes running with the first team.  I agree if he stops running with the ones then hes roster spot would be in jeopardy.  But if he keeps playing poorly with the ones all through camp and gets no reps with the twos I think he makes the team.  Is this your position too?  If your position is its too early to know then I agree.  If forced to put money down I would say he makes the team cause hes playing with the ones rather than saying hes getting cut because hes playing poorly.

Reading Joe B's report this morning in the Athletic at the end of mini camp made it sound like Tre White did not look good.  Had no speed to turn and run with the receivers on the deep routes.  I think this is his swan song.  And he is done.  At this point in their careers, Jackson and Ingram have to be better than Tre.  And then there is Hairston and Strong.  

 

I know McDermott loves his veterans.  But he wants to win more.  Some guys keep most if not all of their speed into their 30's.  Others don't.  It can be a cruel game with injuries.  If Mike Trout was playing pro football, he may have lasted half a season.

[BADOLBILZ]

30 minutes ago, Brand J said:

Yeah I don’t disagree with anything here, just pointing out that speed doesn’t necessarily drop off a cliff just because a player ages. Usain ran that time in sweats and without warming up, so if he had dedicated a couple months or so to running his fastest 40 at age 33…? I’m not so sure it would’ve been a couple of steps lost from his prime. Would it have been slower? Minuscule, certainly not by greater than a tenth (as evidenced by his 4.22). 
 

The wear and tear on the body is the biggest culprit for why one would drastically lose steps. If the body is well maintained and the player is lucky enough to avoid major injuries, they can continue making a living running with the young guys. 

 

 

Yeah I've long used Lofton as an example of the hand-eye coordination frequently going before the speed for all-time athletes like Lofton.    He could still get open late in his career he just couldn't catch the ball.   The Bills had to dump him because of it.

 

Same thing happened at the end with the aforementioned Terrell Owens.   He couldn't catch wet if he fell out of a boat by the end of his playing career.

 

Owens did have an ACL tear but he didn't make a career of tackling people.  

 

And one of the reasons defensive success is much less predictable than offensive success is that the back 7 tend to get a lot more real miles than their "skill position" counterparts on offense.

 

Starting LB's and DB's are expected to play virtually 100% of the defensive snaps(and often special teams as well) and tackle players at RB/TE/WR who are rotating in and out of the game.      

 

It's unsurprising when a player who has put up 3250 snaps in his first 3 years like Tre White did starts getting injured.   By contrast,  James Cook has played just 1389 snaps in his first 3 seasons.  

 

[HappyDays]

49 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Reading Joe B's report this morning in the Athletic at the end of mini camp made it sound like Tre White did not look good.  Had no speed to turn and run with the receivers on the deep routes.  I think this is his swan song.  And he is done.  At this point in their careers, Jackson and Ingram have to be better than Tre.  And then there is Hairston and Strong.  

 

I know McDermott loves his veterans.  But he wants to win more.  Some guys keep most if not all of their speed into their 30's.  Others don't.  It can be a cruel game with injuries.  If Mike Trout was playing pro football, he may have lasted half a season.

 

Yeah I'll be honest I still kind of wish we hadn't signed Tre. I love what he meant to the franchise but I believe he is just washed at this point. I would rather keep younger players whose bodies haven't broken down, like Strong and Ingram, but the team will probably feel obligated to keep Tre here over one of them.

[ColoradoBills]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I'll be honest I still kind of wish we hadn't signed Tre. I love what he meant to the franchise but I believe he is just washed at this point. I would rather keep younger players whose bodies haven't broken down, like Strong and Ingram, but the team will probably feel obligated to keep Tre here over one of them.

 

Tre was signed for some insurance before the draft.  If he is willing to go to the PS after camp, I think his signing will be worth it.

[finn]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I like how the writer paraphrases Beane as saying, "Nothing is earned." That made me laugh. 

[Paup 1995MVP]

45 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I'll be honest I still kind of wish we hadn't signed Tre. I love what he meant to the franchise but I believe he is just washed at this point. I would rather keep younger players whose bodies haven't broken down, like Strong and Ingram, but the team will probably feel obligated to keep Tre here over one of them.

It will be interesting to see how the secondary competition plays out in training camp this year.  I do think we have a lot more depth this year.  Whomever is our CB #2 and 3 on the boundary should be a lot better than what Rasul Douglas and Kair Elam gave us last year.  Even if Ingram were to be #3 I think his experience from playing some last year and just another year in the system will improve his game.  And lets not forget Dane Jackson.  Not an amazing athlete.  But he has always has had some grit to his game.  

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Reading Joe B's report this morning in the Athletic at the end of mini camp made it sound like Tre White did not look good.  Had no speed to turn and run with the receivers on the deep routes.  

You don't say that Joe B went on to say this: 

Quote

It’s not to say that White can’t get himself back to a place, as it would be unwise to write him off after only five viewed practices in the spring.

 

[BillsFanForever19]

13 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Thats a good example but I think the pertinent context is that there was an injury to the preferred starter (TB).  

 

It had nothing to do with Bernard being hurt. They were giving everyone a shot with the 1's in a completely open competition.

 

13 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

To note I dont think White gets the starter job but I think its more likely than not that he makes the team because hes running with the first team.  I agree if he stops running with the ones then hes roster spot would be in jeopardy.  But if he keeps playing poorly with the ones all through camp and gets no reps with the twos I think he makes the team.  Is this your position too?  If your position is its too early to know then I agree.  If forced to put money down I would say he makes the team cause hes playing with the ones rather than saying hes getting cut because hes playing poorly.

 

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

And of course they want Hairston to emerge as the starter. That is what we all hope happens.

 

My stance is, like Gunner said, they most likely want Hairston to be that #2 CB. But they don't want to overwhelm him and the other Rookies, who just got the Playbook. So they're starting Hairston out slow and putting White out there for the time being. So his being with 1's now seems more circumstantial. There's lots of guys running with 1's in June that aren't going to be Starter's. Forrest, through circumstance, ran with 1's at times and I think he's a longshot to make the team.

 

I also think, given how he looked last season, they also wanted to test where White is at by putting him against the toughest competition. And the results didn't seem great.

 

I think Training Camp and the Pre-Season are a different animal than Non-Contact June OTA's. I believe even if Tre responded better than he did in OTA's that Hairston is going to run with the 1's in August. I doubly think that given the reports of Tre's performance.

 

And I think when Training Camp is in full swing, it's a very real possibility that they think guys like Dorian Strong, Ja'Marcus Ingram, and/or Dane Jackson is performing better than he is for those last 2 spots on the 53 for CB.

 

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The same might happen to Tre but by all reports he had a better day yesterday. 

 

I don't want to make it seem like I'm bashing Tre. I am rooting for him and would like to see my penciling him in on the 53 turn to ink.

 

But yesterday didn't seem like he was all that much better. He was in position to make a tip drill pick. But he still was getting beat.

 

All of this to say that I think OP's take that running with the 1's in June secures his spot on the Roster is putting the cart before the horse.

Edited 10 hours ago by BillsFanForever19

[Alphadawg7]

9 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I think Ingram may very well start the season as CB2.

 

I mean anything is possible, but I really don't think this has much chance of happening without a slew of injuries making it happen personally.  

[SoonerBillsFan]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I'll be honest I still kind of wish we hadn't signed Tre. I love what he meant to the franchise but I believe he is just washed at this point. I would rather keep younger players whose bodies haven't broken down, like Strong and Ingram, but the team will probably feel obligated to keep Tre here over one of them.

I think he is here to help develop our DB's