Is there an NFL team with a weaker WR group than the Bills?

[billsfan89]

3 minutes ago, sunshynman said:

You don't get better w/o playing. He was projecting upwards until Poyer lambasted him. I think he continues to improve. The one thing I would have done this offseason was get DK. He would take the offense to a new level.

 

DK would have been an amazing addition but cap wise I just don't think that would have been possible or prudent. It also would have cost significant draft capital. I think the Bills plan at WR is going to be to roll with what they have (maybe kick the tires on Gabe in camp too) and then if the offense like in 2024 is a bit sputtering due to lack of talent at WR then make a trade in season where cap numbers are much more manageable due to teams having already paid out bonuses and part of the seasons salary. 

 

It's a smart plan to make a few mid-level to lower mid-level acquisitions at WR (Palmer and Moore) who fit what the Bills need and bank on a bounce back from Kincaid who will hopefully be healthy (Samuel might also produce more as he is likely healthier) and continued development from Keon in year two coming off a nice rookie year. Then if that doesn't work 5-6 weeks in you can look at the trade market where teams off to 1-2 win starts after 5-6 weeks will be more willing to sell WR's. 

[sunshynman]

3 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

DK would have been an amazing addition but cap wise I just don't think that would have been possible or prudent. It also would have cost significant draft capital. I think the Bills plan at WR is going to be to roll with what they have (maybe kick the tires on Gabe in camp too) and then if the offense like in 2024 is a bit sputtering due to lack of talent at WR then make a trade in season where cap numbers are much more manageable due to teams having already paid out bonuses and part of the seasons salary. 

 

It's a smart plan to make a few mid-level to lower mid-level acquisitions at WR (Palmer and Moore) who fit what the Bills need and bank on a bounce back from Kincaid who will hopefully be healthy (Samuel might also produce more as he is likely healthier) and continued development from Keon in year two coming off a nice rookie year. Then if that doesn't work 5-6 weeks in you can look at the trade market where teams off to 1-2 win starts after 5-6 weeks will be more willing to sell WR's. 

 

Yes, they did the smart cap thing and smart way to run a franchise. 

 

But I would have sacrificed one D slot this season and a next season pick to bring in DK. The level he could elevate the offense, would have made a huge difference.

He would have been Allens Kelcie. And made the O near un-stopable.

 

Not saying they can't get it down with what we got. I have a feeling Moore is going to have a good year. And Keon will continue to improve. 

[billsfan89]

Just now, sunshynman said:

 

Yes, they did the smart cap thing and smart way to run a franchise. 

 

But I would have sacrificed one D slot this season and a next season pick to bring in DK. The level he could elevate the offense, would have made a huge difference.

He would have been Allens Kelcie. And made the O near un-stopable.

 

Not saying they can't get it down with what we got. I have a feeling Moore is going to have a good year. And Keon will continue to improve. 

 

Problem is the Bills in order to accommodate signing DK would have not only had to have given up a 2nd plus a late pick at minimum would also likely not have been able to sign many if any significant defensive free agents. I get that the Bills wouldn't have signed Palmer but he's only accounting for about 27.5% of what DK is making, probably wouldn't have been able to manage the Bosa or Hoecht signings as an example. 

[BearNorth]

8 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

Hoecht signing

Someone in the pro scouting dept must be on a pretty short leash with that recommendation.

[Mister Defense]

On 4/27/2025 at 6:24 AM, Pete said:

I’ve been calling for WRs for the past 3 years.  Does Beane hate Josh Allen?

 

Such a good, rational, fact based point---you  are very consistent in the quality, no matter the post on this topic.  Each post just as rational and fact based as the next.

 

But some may not feel the same as you and I.  They would say that Beane kept focusing on the O line until it is now, by almost all standards, one of the best in the NFL, a cornerstone of the team. Excellent in both their run and pass blocking, blah blah blah.

 

And these yahoos would also throw out some more nonsense, saying that Beane made sure the Bills had one of the best, if not the best top 3 running backs in the league, all also very capable pass catchers.

 

And then they, comically, would point out that last year the Bills had the best offense they have ever had, scored more points than any team in the NFL, were the first team ever to run for 30 and pass for 30 touchdowns in a season, had one of the highest points per drive this century, scored 30 points 8 games in a row-- and other inconsequential frivolous facts like that to reject your wise words out of hand, mock them even, with some even considering them flat out dumb.

 

Then they will end their stupid argument by adding, oh yeah, and Beane hates him so much that Josh Allen just happened to win the MVP last year too, with those 'awful' receivers he gave him to work with.

 

Those posters think that facts and concrete details are capable of replacing raw unsupported emotion and anger. They are clueless, obviously.

 

Who wouldn't want a team run the way you are implying? It would likely mean an amazing turn around for the Bills.

 

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Mister Defense

[T master]

On 4/27/2025 at 3:50 AM, Pete said:

Who is our outside WRs?  Where are they?  Did Keon play so good that we can count on him to be WR2?  Is Palmer WR 1?  Can we count on Samuels to be healthy the entire season?  Who is our 5th WR?
 

Palmer 1

Keon 2

Shakir slot

Samuels 

 

Buffalo saw more man to man coverage last season, because no one respects our WR.  We have had FA and the draft to correct that, and Beane has done Jack *****.

 

its going to take another Ravens curb stomping to make Beane panic and make another Amari like trade.

 

It’s the emperors new clothes.  We have yet to replace John Brown.  This offense needs a vertical component which it is sorely lacking.

 

I know Bills had great offense- after we acquired Amari.

 

We lose Mack and Amari, and added Palmer.  

 

Name a worse WR group.

 

What happens if there is a WR injury?  Is WR Beanes Achilles heal?

 

 

Was there one weaker last year when the Bills out scored even team in the league ??

[BADOLBILZ]

FWIW:

 

 

From today's ESPN+ article on teams biggest remaining need by Aaron Schatz (formerly football outsider and creator of DVOA):

 

Buffalo Bills

 

Position of need: Outside wide receiver

 

Keon Coleman had a quietly efficient rookie season. Although he missed four games due to injury and had only 29 catches for 556 yards with four touchdowns, Coleman ended with an excellent receiving DVOA of 11.4% -- ranked 30th out of 91 qualifying receivers. The Bills added Joshua Palmer in free agency; he's a useful player with an average DVOA and back-to-back seasons of at least 580 receiving yards. But there's no clear No. 1 option and very little depth behind Coleman and Palmer.

 

The next three receivers -- Khalil Shakir, Curtis Samuel and Elijah Moore -- are slot options. The third-best outside option is probably seventh-round pick Kaden Prather. The Bills should consider bringing Amari Cooper back, if just for depth purposes. General manager Brandon Beane might be OK with the wide receiver depth, but it's not optimal.

 

[vtnatefootball11]

25 minutes ago, T master said:

Was there one weaker last year when the Bills out scored even team in the league ??

 

Maybe not. Bills certainly had one of the weakest, that point is not debatable.  Don't mistake points scored for meaning our receivers were good, they weren't if you actually watched the games. Allen's heroics and a solid ground game are 95%+ of the reason for our success last year on offense. 

[RoscoeParrish]

3 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Wow, I had not read this yet, and it may change everything for me on this topic.

 

Because if Aaron Schatz says it, it must be true, of course.

 

He is a football analyst, after all, so must know what he is talking about.

 

 

 

What do you think is the Bills biggest remaining need?

 

I feel like with our draft, we have filled most of the holes on defense. Definitively shored up DL. Safety room is a bit of a jamboree, but we have some young players there.

 

I don’t think the Bills have the weakest WR room in the league. I don’t think they need the best WR room in the NFL to be a great offense. I think if I could add a top 10 player at any position tomorrow, it would be WR with a bullet.

 

Can’t all of those things be true?

[T master]

19 minutes ago, vtnatefootball11 said:

 

Maybe not. Bills certainly had one of the weakest, that point is not debatable.  Don't mistake points scored for meaning our receivers were good, they weren't if you actually watched the games. Allen's heroics and a solid ground game are 95%+ of the reason for our success last year on offense. 

 

That's why they call it a "Football Team " !!

 

Then when you throw into the equation that when they had Diggs they didn't do nearly as good I'd say the new thought on the offense is working pretty well . But again that may be just me because I want to keep McD as HC and there are a bunch of those that don't which I'll never understand ...

[vtnatefootball11]

20 minutes ago, T master said:

 

That's why they call it a "Football Team " !!

 

Then when you throw into the equation that when they had Diggs they didn't do nearly as good I'd say the new thought on the offense is working pretty well . But again that may be just me because I want to keep McD as HC and there are a bunch of those that don't which I'll never understand ...

 

Right a great football team without any weapon that scares on you offense, one that depends entirely on the heroics of a single player, one that consistently gets close but can't get over the hump to make the Super Bowl. I desperately want the Bills to win one, and could care less if it's with McDermott or not.  Many Bills fans have pointed out, going back years, that the Bills lack any type of explosive weapon on offense (not just a gadget fast guy, but an actual plus starter that scares defenses). Diggs was not a top end receiver his last couple years with the team, he was borderline #1, good #2 type, yet Allen was forcing him the ball and we had no other help around him. That's why we saw addition by subtraction last year, along with Allen's continued development and continued chemistry on the o line. Like many Bills fans, I remain highly skeptical that team without a single offensive weapon that scares you can win the Super Bowl (and rightfully so). I hope I'm wrong, truly. I will be dancing in the streets crying tears of joy if so.  

[Simon]

1 hour ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Wow, I had not read this yet, and it may change everything for me on this topic.

 

Because if Aaron Schatz says it, it must be true, of course.

 

He is a football analyst, after all, so must know what he is talking about.

 

 

 

 

fwiw = for what it's worth

 

Ragging on people for adding content to the forum does nobody any favors.

[oldmanfan]

37 minutes ago, vtnatefootball11 said:

 

Right a great football team without any weapon that scares on you offense, one that depends entirely on the heroics of a single player, one that consistently gets close but can't get over the hump to make the Super Bowl. I desperately want the Bills to win one, and could care less if it's with McDermott or not.  Many Bills fans have pointed out, going back years, that the Bills lack any type of explosive weapon on offense (not just a gadget fast guy, but an actual plus starter that scares defenses). Diggs was not a top end receiver his last couple years with the team, he was borderline #1, good #2 type, yet Allen was forcing him the ball and we had no other help around him. That's why we saw addition by subtraction last year, along with Allen's continued development and continued chemistry on the o line. Like many Bills fans, I remain highly skeptical that team without a single offensive weapon that scares you can win the Super Bowl (and rightfully so). I hope I'm wrong, truly. I will be dancing in the streets crying tears of joy if so.  

I suspect teams are scared to death of Josh Allen

[Mikey152]

On 5/6/2025 at 5:31 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

 

I pride myself on being honest and using numbers to support my argument. With that being said, I guess that we should look at the offensive numbers with Cooper and without to confirm what I said was true. I threw out the last New England game completely so as to not alter anything. There were exactly 8 other regular season games with him playing and 8 without him playing.

 

In the 8 games that Cooper played, the Bills threw for 264.4 yards per game and scored 35.5 PPG.

 

In the 8 games that Cooper did not play, the Bills threw for 203.6 yards per game and scored 28.1 PPG.

For those of you that don’t think that 7.4 PPG difference is significant, the Bills finished 2nd in the NFL at 30.6 PPG. If you subtracted 7.4 PPG and were at 23.2 PPG they would have finished 12th.
 

Don’t let people try to put their feelings in the way of facts. There they are. Do with them what you will…

Legit follow up...

 

If Amari Cooper is directly responsible for a TD a game point difference, why is he still a FA?

 

The fact of the matter is, you are quoting extremely high level team stats and controlling for only one variable.  That is why your data is disingenuous...you are mixing correlation with causation and treating it as fact. When presented with underlying and alternative explanations, you are dismissive. You're using data, sure...but only data that proves your point. You also fail to address data that doesn't. That is called confirmation bias and is disingenuous.

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Mikey152

[Mikey152]

On 5/7/2025 at 8:36 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:

Even if Cooper was washed (and he had 1,200 yards the year before with not great qbs), he’s still threat that DCs respect. Before him, we had no one that falls in the category. When you have Cooper, everyone shifts down a spot which makes them more effective. 
 

so the Hope is that Palmer is a younger Cooper with upside and Moore (who definitely have talent), and Coleman  can take a jump playing with Allen. Personally, Palmer is very meh to me and played with one of the best passing qbs in the league for a team desperate for a number 1 wr. I do really like the Moore pickup. 
 

I still don’t know how really scary this group is but they certainly have some nice pieces and are probably league average when last year they were one of the worst groups headed into camp. 

That's supposedly the narrative...everyone was afraid of Amari Cooper. So afraid, in fact, that the covered him even when he was on the bench getting less than 50% of our offensive snaps.

 

No, we were just saving him for big third downs...as a decoy.

 

The fact of the matter is, he got more than 50% snaps in two games last year as a Bill. We lost one (rams) and lost our consecutive 30 pt streak in the other (NE)

 

This narrative that the fear of Amari Cooper transformed this offense from trash to top scorers has got to stop. He was a good swing. It didn't work. He's not on the team anymore.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, RoscoeParrish said:

What do you think is the Bills biggest remaining need?

 

I feel like with our draft, we have filled most of the holes on defense. Definitively shored up DL. Safety room is a bit of a jamboree, but we have some young players there.

 

I don’t think the Bills have the weakest WR room in the league. I don’t think they need the best WR room in the NFL to be a great offense. I think if I could add a top 10 player at any position tomorrow, it would be WR with a bullet.

 

Can’t all of those things be true?

 

 

Yeah I'm just sharing relevant national content from a person who uses data to form his opinions.  

 

Mister Salty likely thinks Aaron Schatz is an ESPN panel talking head.  

 

DVOA is a highly regarded statistical tool.  

 

The fact that it's just yet another example of an argument that doesn't really support Beane's notion that it's idiotic to think the WR room is of any concern isn't shared by people who are providing unbiased opinions based on data.  

 

Nobody claims it's definitive proof, just more content in the appropriate topic.

 

WR is not the only concern.........banking on improvement over the prior years performance from literally every defensive free agent signing is a sketchy proposition.    As is relying on early round DL talent to make a big difference in year 1.    But on paper WR looks weak AF relative to other top contenders.

 

 

 

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

25 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Legit follow up...

 

If Amari Cooper is directly responsible for a TD a game point difference, why is he still a FA?

 

The fact of the matter is, you are quoting extremely high level team stats and controlling for only one variable.  That is why your data is disingenuous...you are mixing correlation with causation and treating it as fact. When presented with underlying and alternative explanations, you are dismissive. You're using data, sure...but only data that proves your point. You also fail to address data that doesn't. That is called confirmation bias and is disingenuous.

 

 

I quoted facts and said do with it what you will. You’re the one hellbent on distorting those facts to fit your narrative. I asked you nicely to look it up before calling me a liar. Instead, you ended up getting exposed by the truth. It didn’t have to be this way. 
 

I’ve said in other posts, that it isn’t all Cooper. It isn’t none of Cooper either. Like everything, it’s a little bit of everything. I attribute 60% to his presence impacting the defense, 20% is coincidental and 15% to his performance. I’m not trying to deny that his presence had a significant impact. It would be really tough/impossible to make the argument that you’ve tried to make. The numbers don’t say that. I would have let you off the hook but you chose this route. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Kirby Jackson

[BADOLBILZ]

9 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

That's supposedly the narrative...everyone was afraid of Amari Cooper. So afraid, in fact, that the covered him even when he was on the bench getting less than 50% of our offensive snaps.

 

No, we were just saving him for big third downs...as a decoy.

 

The fact of the matter is, he got more than 50% snaps in two games last year as a Bill. We lost one (rams) and lost our consecutive 30 pt streak in the other (NE)

 

This narrative that the fear of Amari Cooper transformed this offense from trash to top scorers has got to stop. He was a good swing. It didn't work. He's not on the team anymore.

 

 

You don't have to be "afraid" of a player to recognize that you need to defend deep against a guy who put up 1250 yards,  over 17 per reception with an average depth of target over 14 yards in 2023.  

 

Prior to that teams had begun squatting on the short to intermediate stuff and daring the Bills to throw deep.   The combination of a lack of a proven threat,  Allen not being in sync with Hollins on deep balls early and Coleman having a very slow start made their passing game toothless against Baltimore, Houston and NYJ.   

 

And Cooper did make some key plays.   They likely don't hand KC it's only legit loss of the regular season if Cooper doesn't come up big downfield in that game.  

 

The harbinger of concern became how little separation Cooper was getting when he and Allen were connecting.    As has happened with older Beane acquisitions like Emmanuel Sanders and Leonard Floyd they got diminishing performance as the season went on.

 

The prior season with Flacco,  Cooper was getting a step beyond those defenders when he blew up down the stretch.   Cooper is one of the more explosive WR of this era.   I think he has the second most 200 yard games all-time?   

[Mister Defense]

2 hours ago, RoscoeParrish said:

What do you think is the Bills biggest remaining need?

 

I feel like with our draft, we have filled most of the holes on defense. Definitively shored up DL. Safety room is a bit of a jamboree, but we have some young players there.

 

I don’t think the Bills have the weakest WR room in the league. I don’t think they need the best WR room in the NFL to be a great offense. I think if I could add a top 10 player at any position tomorrow, it would be WR with a bullet.

 

Can’t all of those things be true?

 

Early in the off season I was fully on board with a wideout being a pressing need--I kept thinking that if the Bills just had that fast, sure handed wideout, it would have opened things up underneath all game long versus KC in the Championship game.  And then maybe Brady would have called many more runs and short passes, and then, well...

 

And ditto after the playoff loss to KC last season, especially the "sure handed" part of the need.

 

So, early this off season I was all about going all in for a player like Metcalf, and posted about it here, someone I  had wanted the Bills to draft. And maybe ditto in the draft this year.

 

But then in this off season, once I had time to really let it all sink in, and look at the season stats, and hear from friends and some on this board, it made much more sense to me to go all in for bettering the defense.  The reason? My original take would mean the Bills would have needed to overcome a  defensive weakness, time and time again maybe, to just outscore opponents.  Sort of like we saw this past season in the Rams and Lions games, for example.

 

To me it made much more sense to make the team stronger, to turn the defensive weak areas into strengths.  The struggles in the playoffs, albeit mainly against a dynasty in the making, the Reid Mahomes Chiefs, were usually defensive in nature.  Trying to just outscore them, and not stop them, began to seem foolish to me, And  the defense had the least talent it had had in years.

 

Now, I am not sure what that need is you ask me about.  I think I want to see what the safety play is like, hoping Bishop is the real deal.  If he is, I think we are in good shape there for now. Better depth this year with Hamlin and the Washington free agent--if Bishop works out.

 

Ditto for the wide receivers, but I would still like that sure handed burner.  But now, I would not pay a lot for him like I wanted to do early in the off season, but would want him on the cheap, in the draft, or as the Bills may have done with Palmer and/or Moore.

 

I am not being critical of those just because they wanted a wideout early in the draft, as I was there myself, but instead have been shocked by the bizarre over the top, irrational bashing of Beane and their reasoning. Hard to take seriously those who say he neglects the offense, it has almost no talent, hates Josh etcetera, after the year the offense had last year--best Bills' offense ever, and most points scored in the NFL last year etcetera

 

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Mister Defense

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

14 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Early in the off season I was fully on board with a wideout being a pressing need--I kept thinking that if the Bills just had that fast, sure handed wideout, it would have opened things up underneath all game long versus KC in the Championship game.  And then maybe Brady would have called many more runs and short passes, and then, well...

 

And ditto after the playoff loss to KC last season, especially the "sure handed" part of the need.

 

So, early this off season I was all about going all in for a player like Metcalf, and posted about it here, someone I  had wanted the Bills to draft. And maybe ditto in the draft this year.

 

But then in this off season, once I had time to really let it all sink in, and look at the season stats, and hear from friends and some on this board, it made much more sense to me to go all in for bettering the defense.  The reason? My original take would mean the Bills would have needed to overcome a  defensive weakness, time and time again maybe, to just outscore opponents.  Sort of like we saw this past season in the Rams and Lions games, for example.

 

To me it made much more sense to make the team stronger, to turn the defensive weak areas into strengths.  The struggles in the playoffs, albeit mainly against a dynasty in the making, the Reid Mahomes Chiefs, were usually defensive in nature.  Trying to just outscore them, and not stop them, began to seem foolish to me, And  the defense had the least talent it had had in years.

 

Now, I am not sure what that need is you ask me about.  I think I want to see what the safety play is like, hoping Bishop is the real deal.  If he is, I think we are in good shape there for now. Better depth this year with Hamlin and the Washington free agent--if Bishop works out.

 

Ditto for the wide receivers, but I would still like that sure handed burner.  But now, I would not pay a lot for him like I wanted to do early in the off season, but would want him on the cheap, in the draft, or as the Bills may have done with Palmer and/or Moore.

 

I am not being critical of those just because they wanted a wideout early in the draft, as I was there myself, but instead have been shocked by the bizarre over the top, irrational bashing of Beane and their reasoning. Hard to take seriously those who say he neglects the offense, it has almost no talent, hates Josh etcetera, after the year the offense had last year--best Bills' offense ever, and most points scored in the NFL last year etcetera

 

 

 

Worked yourself into a shoot.