I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[wppete]

 

[Kirby Jackson]

This thread is the era’s version of trading Mario Williams for John Skelton. 

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

I'm still arguing that Brady makes it much harder on this offense than it needs to be with his overuse of Mesh in high leverage situations and inability to scheme up proper passing concepts that lead to space for players.

 

These WRs might not be great in terms of overall ability, but they are certainly better than what Brady has made them look.

 

let’s do the exercise. 
 

facing a heavy dose of man coverage and getting little help from the line or WRs…. What’s your plan?

 

the WRs can’t win matchups 

 

mesh variations off the table

 

cue up some slow developing double moves?

 

the back shoulders have been a real winner for us 

 

I’ll buy a little more motion maybe, some extra stacked formations and that not having such a heavy skew to pass out of shotgun… but at some point it’s a matter of not having talent to beat man coverage. Our WR group ranks 30-something talent wise. 
 

I’ll also say, several of the plays that didn’t work that were mesh in major moments had the target free 

 

what are your play calls 

Edited 2 hours ago by NoSaint

[Real McClappy]

1 hour ago, DJB said:

 

This video is soooooo spot on it hurts man.  I'm not even sure I can blame Brady at this phase either.  

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

let’s do the exercise. 
 

facing a heavy dose of man coverage and getting little help from the line or WRs…. What’s your plan?

 

the WRs can’t win matchups 

 

mesh variations off the table

 

cue up some slow developing double moves?

 

the back shoulders have been a real winner for us 

 

I’ll buy a little more motion maybe, some extra stacked formations and that not having such a heavy skew to pass out of shotgun… but at some point it’s a matter of not having talent to beat man coverage. Our WR group ranks 30-something talent wise. 
 

I’ll also say, several of the plays that didn’t work that were mesh in major moments had the target free 

 

what are your play calls 

 

Khalil Shakir for multiple years had the highest separation rate against man coverage in the NFL. Now all of a sudden he can't win against man?

 

Not buying it. We have Gregg Roman 2.0

 

Great run concepts, bad pass concepts

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[Real McClappy]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

 

Khalil Shakir for multiple years had the highest separation rate against man coverage in the NFL. Now all of a sudden he can't win against man?

 

Not buying it.

So it is route design or the WRs? That is were I'm lost. 

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, Real McClappy said:

So it is route design or the WRs? That is were I'm lost. 

 

Pass concepts are both not well designed for the most part and the ones that are like Mesh are highly overused and predictable in obvious situations.

 

Brady tendencies combined with inability to properly scheme good concepts overall in the pass game are a major problem

 

Essentially like the last 6 years, in year 2 the OC gets figured out, he has no real answers against really good defensive teams and the offense looks disjointed far too often as a result.

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[Real McClappy]

3 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Pass concepts are both not well designed for the most part and the ones that are like Mesh are highly overused and predictable in obvious situations.

 

Brady tendencies combined with inability to properly scheme good concepts overall in the pass game are a major problem

 

Essentially like the last 6 years, in year 2 the OC gets figured out, he has no real answers against really good defensive teams and the offense looks disjointed far too often as a result.

I can agree with what you are saying as well as that all makes sense here.  This flat out sucks as I don't want to see Allen getting destroyed like that again honestly.  Thursday game alone Pegula should be saying the same thing. It was embarrassing and will lead to a major Allen injury. 

[Andy1]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

 

Pass concepts are both not well designed for the most part and the ones that are like Mesh are highly overused and predictable in obvious situations.

 

Brady tendencies combined with inability to properly scheme good concepts overall in the pass game are a major problem

 

Essentially like the last 6 years, in year 2 the OC gets figured out, he has no real answers against really good teams and the offense looks disjointed far too often as a result.

Agree. Under Dorsey and Brady, both offenses became stagnant when defenses figured them out. You need a second act that works off your established concepts. Talent is also an issue. When talent is lacking, scheme and execution becomes more important. 

[NoSaint]

9 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Khalil Shakir for multiple years had the highest separation rate against man coverage in the NFL. Now all of a sudden he can't win against man?

 

Not buying it. We have Gregg Roman 2.0

 

Great run concepts, bad pass concepts

you aren’t going to love the answers here: 

 

1) Shakir is statistically on pace to be about the same year over year statistically and about to basically put up his best season with us. The problem is he’s not a top wr and can’t be your WR1

 

2) still interested to hear the route concepts missing 

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, Andy1 said:

Agree. Under Dorsey and Brady, both offenses became stagnant when defenses figured them out. You need a second act that works off your established concepts. Talent is also an issue. When talent is lacking, scheme and execution becomes more important. 

 

Even under Daboll...the worst offensive game of the Allen era was the 9-6 debacle against an atrocious Jags team.

 

The defense was helping win a lot of those games during the most part of the year in Daboll's last season.  Couldn't run the ball effectively, Allen pressing too much ,etc...

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[jahnyc]

Acho shows how Josh had zero options and the Texans had zero respect for our WRs.  No idea whether it is Brady, the WRs or a combination of the two, but it needs to be fixed, and, unfortunately it won't happen during this season.  Worried Brady and our WRs are going to get Josh seriously injured.

Edited 1 hour ago by jahnyc

[Kirby Jackson]

This is one of the most frustrating seasons of my life. The drought wasn’t always frustrating. They just weren’t very good. This season set up perfectly for them. They arrogantly didn’t look to improve upon what looked like the worst WR room in the NFL. Then the GM goes on the popular morning show. He condescendingly mansplains to the hosts and an educated fanbase why we are all wrong and he knows best. The Bills used the clip to promote the season!! They were insulting us.
 

Almost instantly, what anyone with a brain could see, came to fruition. The WRs were trash. Now they’re about to waste a season in Josh Allen’s prime, where Baltimore and KC were down. The Bills had a very easy schedule. This year was set up perfectly. To this point, they’ve failed and it’s their own arrogance that has us here. 

3 minutes ago, jahnyc said:

Acho shows how Josh had zero options and the Texans had zero respect for our WRs.  No idea whether it is Brady, the WRs or a combination of the two, but it needs to be fixed, and, unfortunately it won't happen during this season.  Worried Brady and our WRs are going to get Josh seriously injured.

Brady hasn’t done a great job this year. You can’t make guys that have never been good, good. This is on Beane. Brady has been bad but no one would flourish with this group. They stink.

[Big Blitz]

[jahnyc]

12 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Almost instantly, what anyone with a brain could see, came to fruition. The WRs were trash. Now they’re about to waste a season in Josh Allen’s prime, where Baltimore and KC were down. The Bills had a very easy schedule. This year was set up perfectly. To this point, they’ve failed and it’s their own arrogance that has us here. 

 

This is exactly the issue.  The WR group was bad, and adding Palmer, a third WR at best on the Chargers, was not going to move the needle for a team that needed two quality boundary WRs.  All of this was obvious, including that Coleman was not going to develop into something he wasn't in college.  A real tragedy given the overall weakness in the AFC this year, including the possibility that the Chiefs and the Ravens don't make the playoffs.

Edited 1 hour ago by jahnyc

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Khalil Shakir for multiple years had the highest separation rate against man coverage in the NFL. Now all of a sudden he can't win against man?

 

Not buying it. We have Gregg Roman 2.0

 

Great run concepts, bad pass concepts

 

 

You didn't answer the question.   And you won't because you don't have any answers.   Even Brady's biggest detractors don't.  How do you get traditionally middling to bad NFL WR's to perform like WR1 and WR2?

 

I think what confuses you is this idea that the passing offense has to be ever changing to avoid patterns.   The design has to be repeatable to avoid mistakes.   That is why teams value talent on the outside.   With rare exception the Josh's and Joe's beat the X's and O's.  

 

Daboll's offense didn't decline in 2021 because he got figured out,  it declined because they lost the threat of a short pass being turned into a big play.   It allowed defense's to play off and that played into Allen's tendencies to push the ball downfield regardless of the amount of traffic.  John Brown was incredibly important prior to that.   He could beat you over the top or take a WR screen to the house in 2019-2020.   In replacing him with Sanders instead of someone electric they had left themselves with no WR speed and no RB threat from the backfield.

 

Lil' Dummy was basically left wide open for two years and when Daboll and Dorsey tried to lean into that the result was volatility.

 

Not having the proper talent in place in the passing game has been a recurring issue with the Bills WR corps since that 2020 season.   

 

[Pete]

46 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Khalil Shakir for multiple years had the highest separation rate against man coverage in the NFL. Now all of a sudden he can't win against man?

 

Not buying it. We have Gregg Roman 2.0

 

Great run concepts, bad pass concepts

The whole world knows the bubble screens to Shakir, run on first down, simple mesh patterns, does take advantage of play fakes enough, it’s all very predictable and very ***** game planning Joe

[BADOLBILZ]

37 minutes ago, Andy1 said:

Agree. Under Dorsey and Brady, both offenses became stagnant when defenses figured them out. You need a second act that works off your established concepts. Talent is also an issue. When talent is lacking, scheme and execution becomes more important. 

 

No, what happened was under Dorsey and Brady the available passing game talent around Allen declined significantly.  

 

The Bills have essentially gone from not having short and intermediate talent in 2021-2022 to only having short and intermediate talent in 2024-2025.

 

And when you lean into TE and slot WR talent like they have with Shakir and Kincaid being their best pass game weapons........you are leaning into the area of the field where players get hurt more often.      Not a coincidence that Shakir and Kincaid are banged up all the time.   Consistent, durable TE's are a rarity and slot WR's get used up and thrown away like RB's.  The axiom about building inside out does not apply to passing game weapons.   

[FireChans]

48 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

you aren’t going to love the answers here: 

 

1) Shakir is statistically on pace to be about the same year over year statistically and about to basically put up his best season with us. The problem is he’s not a top wr and can’t be your WR1

 

2) still interested to hear the route concepts missing 

Yeah this is maxed out Shakir like I tried to tell @Alphadawg7 last year.

 

He has talent and I like what he offers, but he is not good enough to be a focal point from the slot like a prime Kupp or JSN or ARSB. 

[Big Turk]

10 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

No, what happened was under Dorsey and Brady the available passing game talent around Allen declined significantly.  

 

The Bills have essentially gone from not having short and intermediate talent in 2021-2022 to only having short and intermediate talent in 2024-2025.

 

And when you lean into TE and slot WR talent like they have with Shakir and Kincaid being their best pass game weapons........you are leaning into the area of the field where players get hurt more often.      Not a coincidence that Shakir and Kincaid are banged up all the time.   Consistent, durable TE's are a rarity and slot WR's get used up and thrown away like RB's.  The axiom about building inside out does not apply to passing game weapons.   

 

So when Diggs was tearing things up averaging 86 yards a game over 11 games with 7 TDs under Dorsey and then became a complete non-factor under Brady I am supposed to believe that he suddenly forgot how to get open?