Joe Brady on the Allen/Davis Miscommunication

[Shaw66]

20 hours ago, NoSaint said:

there was no safety inside so gabe going post there would’ve been a breeze too

This is correct.  No defender came close to making a play where the ball landed.   Davis was open whichever way he broke.  

[Scott7975]

15 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I hadn't considered that Brady might have changed the technique on some plays, in which case he would really mean that the problem was on him.   I understood his answer to be a the-buck-stops-here answer.   That is, regardless of whoever installed the protocol for a play like that, as the OC he is ultimately responsible whenever a player misses an assignment.   

 

And I agree with you - the inside read is a better.  At a purely amateur, touch football level, as a receiver I would find that both finding the ball and catching the ball would be easier with the throw down the middle.  As I mentioned earlier, I think throwing the ball into the corner immediately causes the receiver to begin worrying about the sideline - I'm much more comfortable if I know I can just roam into the center of the end zone and concentrate on the catch.  

 

And lest we forget as we slice and dice this play is the bigger problem, which is at the end of close games, the Bills always seem to find a mistake to make that costs them the game.  So, as plenty of people have said, there is a level - an important level - where this is a McDermott problem, not a Brady problem.   

 

Another thing of note as Cover1 pointed out in a video I posted in another thread... Philly played that coverage at least a couple other times in the game and their DBs didn't pass off the receivers correctly.  This play they did.

 

Could be Josh expected different.  Going through reads, Josh might not have seen it.  Might not have even seen the leverage by the time got to Gabe.  At the point of the throw there really was no leverage. Josh had to make the throw before the break.  Even if Josh tried to extend, that play wouldn't have been there anymore by then.  Josh said he made a guess and guessed wrong.

 

At the end of the day, no one knows except the Bills and it doesn't matter.  What matters is the coach corrects the problem.  Josh and Gabe correct the problem.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Scott7975

[NoSaint]

14 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I hadn't considered that Brady might have changed the technique on some plays, in which case he would really mean that the problem was on him.   I understood his answer to be a the-buck-stops-here answer.   That is, regardless of whoever installed the protocol for a play like that, as the OC he is ultimately responsible whenever a player misses an assignment.   

 

And I agree with you - the inside read is a better.  At a purely amateur, touch football level, as a receiver I would find that both finding the ball and catching the ball would be easier with the throw down the middle.  As I mentioned earlier, I think throwing the ball into the corner immediately causes the receiver to begin worrying about the sideline - I'm much more comfortable if I know I can just roam into the center of the end zone and concentrate on the catch.  

 

And lest we forget as we slice and dice this play is the bigger problem, which is at the end of close games, the Bills always seem to find a mistake to make that costs them the game.  So, as plenty of people have said, there is a level - an important level - where this is a McDermott problem, not a Brady problem.   

agreed on all fronts. There’s a reason when a guys got a step over the top you are adding a little air and sending it a bit towards the center of the field- giving the receiver room to work with is easier on both him and the qb. 
 

and I’ll say the theory about tweaking reads is totally fresh for me. It popped in my head while typing so it’s not totally hashed out for me 

[Shaw66]

47 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

and I’ll say the theory about tweaking reads is totally fresh for me. It popped in my head while typing so it’s not totally hashed out for me 

Great admission!  But it's a good theory.   I mean, an OC taking over in the middle season isn't throwing out whole schemes and installing new ones, but he may very well be tweaking things in just the way you described.  

[GoBills808]

55 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Another thing of note as Cover1 pointed out in a video I posted in another thread... Philly played that coverage at least a couple other times in the game and their DBs didn't pass off the receivers correctly.  This play they did.

 

Could be Josh expected different.  Going through reads, Josh might not have seen it.  Might not have even seen the leverage by the time got to Gabe.  At the point of the throw there really was no leverage. Josh had to make the throw before the break.  Even if Josh tried to extend, that play wouldn't have been there anymore by then.  Josh said he made a guess and guessed wrong.

 

At the end of the day, no one knows except the Bills and it doesn't matter.  What matters is the coach corrects the problem.  Josh and Gabe correct the problem.

I actually read something from an Eagles tweet that said Slay usually supposed to take the flat, so they may have messed this one up as well which would explain why Davis got so open

 

dunno if there are different rules for adjusting your route based on busted coverage but presumably Allen would know if they messed up the switch because he's looking right at it

[WideNine]

Old school accountability.

 

Refreshing approach from Brady as ultimately the performance of the offense and its players falls to him and the coaching staff.

 

Both the credit for things they have improved, and the areas where they need to put in more work.

 

 

 

 

[RousseauRage]

On 12/5/2023 at 8:02 PM, Scott7975 said:

 

I disagree.  It sounds like he is taking the blame for not getting these guys on the same page or making a better call. 

All you can do is tell players how a play is supposed to be run. He gave the PC answer of taking blame for himself. Allen ***** it up, plain and simple.

[That's No Moon]

On 11/30/2023 at 12:25 AM, Shaw66 said:

I don't know that we know for a fact that this is why Dorsey was gone, but it certainly makes sense.   And, really, that play represents what looks like a problem, but it was only one problem.  The thing that was troubling everyone, starting at game 5, was the disappearance of any offensive flow or effectiveness.  The Bills are 6-6 because the offense substantially underperformed its potential.  With decent offensive performance, like we've seen in the last two games, the Bills would be 9-3 or even 10-2.   

 

It's really frustrating to have blown (absent a miracle) another opportunity. 

I know the offense is easy to blame, but they'd also be 9-3 if the defense could have closed out games where the offense left the field with the lead. The underachievement has been a team effort this year.

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

I know the offense is easy to blame, but they'd also be 9-3 if the defense could have closed out games where the offense left the field with the lead. The underachievement has been a team effort this year.

I hear you, and there's some truth to it.  But losing Milano and Jones for the season hurt, and the D has nevertheless held up pretty well.  Yes, struggled late in games, but overall the defense has always had the Bills in the game.  It was the offense that really underperformed.  

 

I'm just hoping Brady will be the savior of this team, this season and next.  

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

I was reading an article about Knox coming in and man does it damn Dorsey by omission:

 

Quote

One of the reasons former Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll was so popular when he was in the job in Buffalo from 2018 until 2021 was because he involved players in the offensive plan. Knox said that guys on offense are getting to know Brady even better since he took over as OC, but that communication back and forth between coaches and players has impressed Knox.

“If there’s a play we might not like or something, we really do like just talking to him about it, getting it installed and having a very open line of communication has been great,” he said.

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2023/12/bills-dawson-knox-returns-how-will-te-fit-into-new-joe-brady-offense.html

[Punching Bag]

On 12/5/2023 at 4:09 PM, RochesterLifer said:

I think this bears repeating.

 

On 12/5/2023 at 4:37 PM, TBBills Fan said:

Im not sure it is anything like the Bears situation

 

Definitely a bear market not a bull market which is bad for Bills. 

6 hours ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

I was reading an article about Knox coming in and man does it damn Dorsey by omission:

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2023/12/bills-dawson-knox-returns-how-will-te-fit-into-new-joe-brady-offense.html

 

Remember he took Davis Webb with him who was intermediary.  Bills offered him coaching position but we wanted one more shot as a player.

[Old Coot]

On 12/6/2023 at 4:21 PM, Shaw66 said:

On 12/5/2023 at 8:16 PM, NoSaint said:

there was no safety inside so gabe going post there would’ve been a breeze too

This is correct.  No defender came close to making a play where the ball landed.   Davis was open whichever way he broke

I beg to differ. The DB has inside leverage; that is he is taking away the receiver's inside moves. If Gabe runs a post he's shrinking his separation from the DB. Gabe's out cut was correct. The DB was not close to where the throw landed because he went with Gabe.

 

Correct receiver play says to cut away from the leverage which Gabe did.

 

The D played a full blitz which likely led to the miscue. Josh would not have had much time to locate Gabe and throw and Gabe might not have been aware that its a full blitz. If he's aware his job is to run away from the DB since it will be man coverage.

 

This is supported by the fact that no one on the team explicitly blamed Gabe; not Brady and not Josh. Josh said somethink like it's a 50-50 throw and he guessed wrong

[SoonerBillsFan]

On 11/28/2023 at 5:57 PM, Scott7975 said:

 

I already liked this guy way more than Dorsey.  Now I love this guy way more than Dorsey.  He actually tries to fix the problems instead of just status quo hoping people stop making mistakes.

Its BS.  I like the guy, but its BS.  Romo said it best, Zero blitz, Davis MUST look back at Allen and adjust his route.

[Shaw66]

16 hours ago, Old Coot said:

I beg to differ. The DB has inside leverage; that is he is taking away the receiver's inside moves. If Gabe runs a post he's shrinking his separation from the DB. Gabe's out cut was correct. The DB was not close to where the throw landed because he went with Gabe.

 

Correct receiver play says to cut away from the leverage which Gabe did.

 

The D played a full blitz which likely led to the miscue. Josh would not have had much time to locate Gabe and throw and Gabe might not have been aware that its a full blitz. If he's aware his job is to run away from the DB since it will be man coverage.

 

This is supported by the fact that no one on the team explicitly blamed Gabe; not Brady and not Josh. Josh said somethink like it's a 50-50 throw and he guessed wrong

I'm not saying I'm right.  I don't know.  But I also think you don't know.   Have you bugged the wide receiver room at the Bills facility?   Is Brady your brother-in-law?   How do you know? 

 

As I've said before, what Romo (who actually played pro football and has been in hundreds of meetings about how the QB and receiver play the game) said was that in that situation it's the receiver's responsibility to find the ball before he makes the cut.  Now, what I assume he meant is that that's the way the Cowboys trained their receivers.  Whether the Bills do the same thing, I don't know.  But I don't know how you would know, either.  

 

As has been said, over and over by me and others, is that one thing is certain:  It was failure of training.   Either Davis failed to do what was expected, or Allen failed to do what was expected, but in either case, it's the coaches' responsibility to train the players so that they WILL do what is expected.   It's different from failure of execution, like Davis dropping the ball or Allen overthrowing him.  That's on the players.  But when Davis cuts the wrong way or Allen throws to the wrong spot, that's because they may have been taught something, but they didn't learn it.  It's the coaches' job to see that they learn it. 

[Old Coot]

10 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm not saying I'm right.  I don't know.  But I also think you don't know.   Have you bugged the wide receiver room at the Bills facility?   Is Brady your brother-in-law?   How do you know? 

 

As I've said before, what Romo (who actually played pro football and has been in hundreds of meetings about how the QB and receiver play the game) said was that in that situation it's the receiver's responsibility to find the ball before he makes the cut.  Now, what I assume he meant is that that's the way the Cowboys trained their receivers.  Whether the Bills do the same thing, I don't know.  But I don't know how you would know, either.  

Fair enough. I don't know what the Bills' receivers are taught to do. I would be surprised, however, if they are taught to run toward leverage.  As for Romo's comment it would be useful to know if Gabe realized it was a full-on blitz.

 

10 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

As has been said, over and over by me and others, is that one thing is certain:  It was failure of training.   Either Davis failed to do what was expected, or Allen failed to do what was expected, but in either case, it's the coaches' responsibility to train the players so that they WILL do what is expected.   It's different from failure of execution, like Davis dropping the ball or Allen overthrowing him.  That's on the players.  But when Davis cuts the wrong way or Allen throws to the wrong spot, that's because they may have been taught something, but they didn't learn it.  It's the coaches' job to see that they learn it. 

Well said, my man. Too often there are breakdowns attributable to training.

[Shaw66]

14 hours ago, Old Coot said:

Fair enough. I don't know what the Bills' receivers are taught to do. I would be surprised, however, if they are taught to run toward leverage.  As for Romo's comment it would be useful to know if Gabe realized it was a full-on blitz.

 

I think the point of Romo's comment was that it was Davis's job to know the Eagles were in cover zero.  He had pre-snap plus a 20-yard sprint upfield to figure out that there was no one deep to pick him up.  So he's supposed to see that, assume the Eagles are blitzing, and therefore look back to find the ball.  I think it's the case that on most plays, most plays must recognize the defense in order to adjust their routes.   So, for example, on back shoulder throws, the receiver must read the defender and, if the defender has the deep route covered, the receiver must look back over his inside shoulder to find the ball.  This was (I think) the opposite - see cover zero, look back for the ball, make a play on the ball.  

 

Again, I don't know.  Maybe you're right - maybe Davis was supposed to read the defender and cut away from him, and Josh was supposed to make the same read and throw it.  And that would explain Josh's comment about guessing wrong - maybe he couldn't see the leverage (he was under pressure), so he guessed.  But I'd say that even if that's what happened, it would make sense that it STILL was Davis's job to look back early and find the ball. 

[Old Coot]

23 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Again, I don't know.  Maybe you're right - maybe Davis was supposed to read the defender and cut away from him, and Josh was supposed to make the same read and throw it.  And that would explain Josh's comment about guessing wrong - maybe he couldn't see the leverage (he was under pressure), so he guessed.  But I'd say that even if that's what happened, it would make sense that it STILL was Davis's job to look back early and find the ball.

You make a good case for your viewpoint.

 

One thing we can agree on, well-coached teams don't have miscommunication issues. Execution is just as important as play-calling. I recall a comment by Beasley in response to criticism of Daboll's play-calling that it was lack of execution not play-calling.

 

The read route concept, if tht's what the Bills were running on that play, puts alot of stress on the WR and QB reading the same coverage. When the QB is under immediate pressure there is even more liklihood for a misread.

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, Old Coot said:

 

The read route concept, if that's what the Bills were running on that play, puts a lot of stress on the WR and QB reading the same coverage. When the QB is under immediate pressure there is even more likelihood for a misread.

McDermott would tell us that it's his job, and his coordinators' jobs, to make sure that their players execute correctly, particularly under the stress of the game, whether that means the stress of the pass rush or the stress of being in a close game in the fourth quarter.  

 

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

**** happens. The pressure was barring down. Hopefully they learn from it and move on. My beef is more with the non-fumble call. 

[Buffalo716]

On 12/7/2023 at 5:16 PM, Old Coot said:

I beg to differ. The DB has inside leverage; that is he is taking away the receiver's inside moves. If Gabe runs a post he's shrinking his separation from the DB. Gabe's out cut was correct. The DB was not close to where the throw landed because he went with Gabe.

 

Correct receiver play says to cut away from the leverage which Gabe did.

 

The D played a full blitz which likely led to the miscue. Josh would not have had much time to locate Gabe and throw and Gabe might not have been aware that its a full blitz. If he's aware his job is to run away from the DB since it will be man coverage.

 

This is supported by the fact that no one on the team explicitly blamed Gabe; not Brady and not Josh. Josh said somethink like it's a 50-50 throw and he guessed wrong

Except he had the corner stacked which is a guaranteed win on a vertical route... He was in ultimate position

 

And Josh has never thrown anyone under the bus ...

 

But diggs certainly got animated with Davis... Because he knows he had the corner stacked with leverage ... He did not need to change his route after stacking the corner 

 

That's an incorrect move 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Buffalo716