Notes from the Cinci Game

[HoofHearted]

Defensively

The Bad

 - Underneath defenders repeatedly caught staring at QBs eyes instead of working to a man in zone coverage (Poyer, Dodson, D. Williams, Shaq)

 - Poor path by Floyd on the naked bootleg allowed Borrow time to get the play off clean

 - Dodson fit incorrectly multiple times

 - Played the Stalk & Go incorrectly twice

 - Add-ons HAVE to rush through their coverage assignment otherwise that touchdown is exactly what happens

 - Micah caught on the deep ball to Chase that went over top of Dane - people matter!

 - Poor rush integrity a couple times

 - Miscommunication multiple times - Dorian busted a coverage on motion and then later him and Douglas busted coverage to the flat (each thought the other had the flat - both hesitate towards it - Williams eventually takes it, but was too late)

 - Still don't have RZ man coverages in - have to be able to switch off routes in man down there

 

Overall Thoughts

 - Thought we fit the run really well for the most part all night

 - Found it interesting we played with a Crash 4 and Wide 9 to the open side all night (curious if that's going to be a staple going forward or just a game plan deal based on the Bengals Tackles)

 - We're trying to disguise our Hole coverage, but we're tipping it with our Linebacker alignment. Might as well just line up in it since we're not fooling anyone.

 - Not sure how to feel about us moving our DEs inside and DT out whenever we're running games (we don't do it every time). On one hand it puts our athletes in positions to make plays, but on the other it tips what we're doing (we've done this since McDermott has been here). Noticed it with Floyd line up as a 3tech running a Pirate game

 - Norman calling for a flag instead of finishing the play on the final run of the game - it's inexcusable

 

Offensively

The Bad

 - Bengals DL dominated the LoS all night. Multiple, just flat out, whiffs on blocks in the run game that would have gone for good gains

 - Allen holding the ball too long - take the checkdown and give yourself a chance (did better with this as the game went on)

 - Tex game gave us trouble all night on the right side of our line

 - Cook tipped the slip screen that Torrence fell on with his alignment

 - Dawkins got beat multiple times because he overset

 - We're missing some good potential gains when Allen is choosing his 1v1 backside over working the concept side

 

Overall Thoughts

 - Thought we did some good things with shifts and motions to scheme guys open - would like to see more of that

 - Allen did a good job with his eyes multiple times pulling defenders where he wanted them and then throwing off of it

 - Shakir continues to impress underneath with the option package that Beasley used to run for us

 - Allen working Diggs/Kincaid side every time we're running mirrored concepts (Again, people matter so it's good from that standpoint, but it's also a tendency)

 - Q Counter looked really good. I miss the QB run game. It puts so much stress on a defense, but I understand why we've gotten away from it.

 - Like the creativity of the reverse flea flicker in that shot area. Unfortunately they were in man so there was no play to be had. Would have been nice if it would have just checked to the reverse vs man coverage because it was there.

 - Davis is what he is - he's not a route runner - he doesn't have twitch. He's phenomenal in the run game for the most part and is versatile in that aspect. Would be nice to play into that more. Play him more condensed - get him matched up on backers within the Hook/Curl area and I think he could excel there (showed some of this vs. the Bucs with our condensed sets)

 - We are not fast as an offense - Diggs even looked slow on that one he got out on

[Fan in Chicago]

4 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Defensively

 

 

Offensively

 

This is fantastic stuff, HH. Cant thank you enough for putting in the effort. Also, you articulated this in a language which a non-coach can understand

 

Few of my notes:

- Kincaid is really coming along and the move that led to the fumble is something he will learn from. It was a pivotal play of the game so it hurt us, but he seems to be a bright kid and I dont expect it will happen again

- I thought Davis made at least two major errors: gave up on his route down the left sideline which resulted in Allen throwing to no one and drawing a (stupidly called) intentional grounding penalty. And second was a critical drop (cant recall at what point) which was due to him not concentrating or fighting for the ball. Yea, he is good as a blocker but at this time the liability due to not doing his primary job well outweighs the benefits of his blocking

- OL was getting overwhelmed yet again, as you noted. Which is incredibly frustrating because Beane added Govern and Torrance to the interior where we had the highest need last season. I cant figure out why we still continue to lack consistency on the OL performance

- I am looking forward to Joseph coming up to speed quickly and help the interior of the DL

- Apart from the X's and O's, there is something lacking in the scheme which allows quick release QBs to have success. Imo, the pressure has to come from the front 4 allowing the backers and DBs to cover and take away the quick throw opportunties. Why do you think we are failing in this regard?

 

Thanks again, man.

[Captain_Quint]

Good stuff! 

 

Re: the oline. Doesn't it seem that the bigger the game, the worse the oline does? It isn't always the best dlines that give us problems, but at critical times in the game and in critical games, they come up short time and time again. 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Captain_Quint

[GoBills808]

@HoofHearted

 

On the third Bengals TD before half, what happens to Hyde there? Isn't his man the TE who leaks for TD

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Micah against Boyd on a 3rd-10 playing 15 yards off. 

 

How much easier can you make it for Burrow? 

 

 

[34-78-83]

You're the most knowledgeable and accurate x's and o's poster we have on this board, @HoofHearted. I always appreciate the insight.

[HoofHearted]

21 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

- I thought Davis made at least two major errors: gave up on his route down the left sideline which resulted in Allen throwing to no one and drawing a (stupidly called) intentional grounding penalty.

This was just the two not being on the same page. These are the route conversions I spoke about in another thread. If Davis doesn't get top shoulder on the defender off the LoS then he is suppose to shut it down. Davis knew he wasn't going to outrun the corner so he shut it down. Allen has to see that. We've had a bunch of success on this this year - just not on the same page - it happens. What's more frustrating to me about that play was Allen took his backside 1v1 matchup he liked (fine), but it was Man Free - he had 1v1's across the field and took the single who, pre-snap, is running a vertical vs press man on 3rd and 6. Had Diggs and Shakir win their 1v1's to the field for an easy 1st down completion.

 

28 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

- Apart from the X's and O's, there is something lacking in the scheme which allows quick release QBs to have success. Imo, the pressure has to come from the front 4 allowing the backers and DBs to cover and take away the quick throw opportunties. Why do you think we are failing in this regard?

A lot of times we're playing match coverages, but our guys are playing with zone eyes instead of working to their assignment and then peaking. Poyer, Dodson, and Williams all got caught doing this at times and so their caught flat footed instead of widening to their assignment (whether than be a Seam 2 player or 3 quick player). We're running a bunch of 3 under 3 deep concepts as well (because we haven't been productive rushing 4) to try and generate pressure and that in and of itself makes it tough to cover everything.

12 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

@HoofHearted

 

On the third Bengals TD before half, what happens to Hyde there? Isn't his man the TE who leaks for TD

Yes, we're in man coverage and his man assignment initially stays in to block. He can now add-on to the rush, but he has to rush through his man assignment on his rush (essentially run through his assignment and push him into the QB) in case he releases late (which he did). This is what Edmunds was doing a lot when he rushed and people just thought he was an idiot just running into the RB... this is what happens when you don't account for your assignment.

[HoofHearted]

15 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Micah against Boyd on a 3rd-10 playing 15 yards off. 

 

How much easier can you make it for Burrow? 

 

 

They were disguising their Man Free look as Quarters pre-snap - that's why he was off 10 yards. The breakdown wasn't because of his depth of alignment, but because he drifted post-snap instead of working his catch technique. If you are playing off man you have to get hands on receivers at the break point to slow them down or you will be beat every time because you're flat footed.

[Mango]

Great breakdown, thank you!

Question for somebody who seems much smarter than me. A buddy of mine texted me today that Fournette said this was the most complicated passing offense he had ever seen. Assuming that is true, by your eye does it this offense seem overly complicated or that players (OL, WR, QB) are struggling to understand their responsibilities?

 

By my eye it looks like the WR's in this offense have lot of autonomy (responsibility?) to run their routes based on their coverages and this is where some of the miscues between WR and QB seem to be happening. It isn't just the option route stuff like we saw with Davis. But it seems like depth and direction of route is a struggle too. 

I am kinda-sorta hoping this is the case, because it seems like such an easy fix. It is at least better than entire offensive concept being flawed, or having to limp through until the draft/FA. 

 

 

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

This was just the two not being on the same page. These are the route conversions I spoke about in another thread. If Davis doesn't get top shoulder on the defender off the LoS then he is suppose to shut it down. Davis knew he wasn't going to outrun the corner so he shut it down. Allen has to see that. We've had a bunch of success on this this year - just not on the same page - it happens. What's more frustrating to me about that play was Allen took his backside 1v1 matchup he liked (fine), but it was Man Free - he had 1v1's across the field and took the single who, pre-snap, is running a vertical vs press man on 3rd and 6. Had Diggs and Shakir win their 1v1's to the field for an easy 1st down completion.

 

A lot of times we're playing match coverages, but our guys are playing with zone eyes instead of working to their assignment and then peaking. Poyer, Dodson, and Williams all got caught doing this at times and so their caught flat footed instead of widening to their assignment (whether than be a Seam 2 player or 3 quick player). We're running a bunch of 3 under 3 deep concepts as well (because we haven't been productive rushing 4) to try and generate pressure and that in and of itself makes it tough to cover everything.

Yes, we're in man coverage and his man assignment initially stays in to block. He can now add-on to the rush, but he has to rush through his man assignment on his rush (essentially run through his assignment and push him into the QB) in case he releases late (which he did). This is what Edmunds was doing a lot when he rushed and people just thought he was an idiot just running into the RB... this is what happens when you don't account for your assignment.

ty

 

I thought that was especially jarring from Hyde and judging from McDermott's reaction on the sideline he did too lol

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Thank you for the effort you put into this weekly evaluation.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

I think two things on offense:

 

1. Cook is on the field a lot. It's not a big change to throw him the ball a few more times each game. Whether Josh wants to or disciplined enough or is always searching for something more is another story. 

 

2. I think the Bills need to break up Gabe's snap count. Honestly, he's getting 95% of snaps. You're telling me the entire offense goes belly-up because of his blocking? It's not working anyways, we're scoring 20 ppg in our last 5. So why can't he be put in a rotation with Sherfield and Harty? He can still be the primary outside, but we're a year and half into this Gabe is a full-time starter, and it's just inefficient trying to get him the ball. 

 

Allen throws to Diggs and Kincaid because it just works. 

 

The other guys it apparently takes PhD level scientists to invent new theoretical math to get them the ball.

 

 

15 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

They were disguising their Man Free look as Quarters pre-snap - that's why he was off 10 yards. The breakdown wasn't because of his depth of alignment, but because he drifted post-snap instead of working his catch technique. If you are playing off man you have to get hands on receivers at the break point to slow them down or you will be beat every time because you're flat footed.

Its not the same coverage as London, but we saw this in London - Hyde vs Ridley.

 

The QB sees it right away and immediately goes there.

[HappyDays]

You have quickly become the most valuable resource on the board. Thank you for all that you do.

 

I have to mention that this...

 

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

he's not a route runner

 

...is an insane thing to say about our WR2. I think they need to make Davis the #4 option from now on. Kincaid #2, Shakir #3.

 

Also it seems like they are having repeated issues when Allen goes to the man coverage option he likes instead of following the progressions. I'm not blaming Allen, like you have said this is built into the offense. But I'm wondering if they should remove that option from the scheme entirely and stop relying on these guys to win 1v1s, because it just isn't happening frequently enough. Until we get better weapons, I don't think trust throws should be a major part of our arsenal.

 

On the OL, have you noticed a difference since the start of the year? Earlier there were metrics showing we were a top 5 OL in pass and run blocking, but in recent weeks I have noticed a major drop off there. I wonder if coaching is an issue here? Everybody appears to be playing worse as the season goes along. Our coaches misevaluated Wyatt Teller when they traded him away for nothing. It's been a huge issue for years now.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

 

 - Cook tipped the slip screen that Torrence fell on with his alignment

Great catch. I missed this. Would love a breakdown.

[strive_for_five_guy]

Can we ban all new threads after a game until some actual analysis like the above is shared?

[HoofHearted]

12 minutes ago, Mango said:

Great breakdown, thank you!

Question for somebody who seems much smarter than me. A buddy of mine texted me today that Fournette said this was the most complicated passing offense he had ever seen. Assuming that is true, by your eye does it this offense seem overly complicated or that players (OL, WR, QB) are struggling to understand their responsibilities?

 

By my eye it looks like the WR's in this offense have lot of autonomy (responsibility?) to run their routes based on their coverages and this is where some of the miscues between WR and QB seem to be happening. It isn't just the option route stuff like we saw with Davis. But it seems like depth and direction of route is a struggle too. 

I am kinda-sorta hoping this is the case, because it seems like such an easy fix. It is at least better than entire offensive concept being flawed, or having to limp through until the draft/FA. 

 

 

Let me try to explain as best I can. Yes, there are a ton of route conversions within our pass game. Those route conversions are based on post-snap reads. There are defined depths at which you need to have made a decision by (this is called the decision point). So as an example lets use the easiest version of this, a two option concept - as an outside receiver I'm staring at the defender lined up across from me as the ball is snapped - if i get to 10 yards (my decision point) and I can touch the defender I'll keep going vertical and win with speed - if i can't touch the defender then I'll shut it down and hitch back to the QB. So to your point - our receivers don't have the autonomy to run whatever they want - the options are defined as well as the decision point. Route depths, however, can become an issue when first learning the scheme because of post-snap processing time.

 

Now the example I gave is the very simplest form. Our guys can go out there at times with 5 or more options available to them based on the various coverages they are seeing from the defense and where people are (i.e. overhangs, high safeties, etc.). It takes a ton of reps to nail down, but is extremely difficult to stop if executed correctly because you essentially have a built in answer for every coverage. If you want to learn more about it look up Art Briles and the Deep Choice concept he made a living on while at Baylor.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

You have quickly become the most valuable resource on the board. Thank you for all that you do.

 

I have to mention that this...

 

 

...is an insane thing to say about our WR2. I think they need to make Davis the #4 option from now on. Kincaid #2, Shakir #3.

 

Also it seems like they are having repeated issues when Allen goes to the man coverage option he likes instead of following the progressions. I'm not blaming Allen, like you have said this is built into the offense. But I'm wondering if they should remove that option from the scheme entirely and stop relying on these guys to win 1v1s, because it just isn't happening frequently enough. Until we get better weapons, I don't think trust throws should be a major part of our arsenal.

 

On the OL, have you noticed a difference since the start of the year? Earlier there were metrics showing we were a top 5 OL in pass and run blocking, but in recent weeks I have noticed a major drop off there. I wonder if coaching is an issue here? Everybody appears to be playing worse as the season goes along. Our coaches misevaluated Wyatt Teller when they traded him away for nothing. It's been a huge issue for years now.

I think the Bills are already here, maybe by virtue of Knox's injury. 

 

Diggs leads the league in targets - 97 - tied with Hill @ 10.78 per game.

 

Chase is the only one who has more on a per-game basis with 11.6 (93 in 8 games). 

 

But you look at Kincaid in the last 3 games, and he's virtually caught Davis is targets. Kincaid 26 targets in his last 3 games (45 overall) to Davis who has 19 in his last 3 games (49 overall). 

 

Shakir has 14 in the last 3 games. 

 

Next step will be to start breaking up Gabe's snap count. Rotate in Harty and Sherfield. 

 

I thought the Bills correctly ditched the run early in Cincinnati and didn't use it much until the Kincaid fumble drive when Murray converted two 2nd and shorts. 

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

33 minutes ago, Mango said:

Great breakdown, thank you!

Question for somebody who seems much smarter than me. A buddy of mine texted me today that Fournette said this was the most complicated passing offense he had ever seen. Assuming that is true, by your eye does it this offense seem overly complicated or that players (OL, WR, QB) are struggling to understand their responsibilities?

 

By my eye it looks like the WR's in this offense have lot of autonomy (responsibility?) to run their routes based on their coverages and this is where some of the miscues between WR and QB seem to be happening. It isn't just the option route stuff like we saw with Davis. But it seems like depth and direction of route is a struggle too. 

I am kinda-sorta hoping this is the case, because it seems like such an easy fix. It is at least better than entire offensive concept being flawed, or having to limp through until the draft/FA. 

 

 

interesting. I saw elsewhere orlovski or turner or someone else was saying most of the routes read coverage and adjust mid play…

 

 sounded like a almost like an orchestrated run and shoot. 

[GoBills808]

Both Bengals lines just look stronger and faster on tape

 

I don't know how much of that is due to scheme but it's like they knew they were going to win

[Mango]

4 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Let me try to explain as best I can. Yes, there are a ton of route conversions within our pass game. Those route conversions are based on post-snap reads. There are defined depths at which you need to have made a decision by (this is called the decision point). So as an example lets use the easiest version of this, a two option concept - as an outside receiver I'm staring at the defender lined up across from me as the ball is snapped - if i get to 10 yards (my decision point) and I can touch the defender I'll keep going vertical and win with speed - if i can't touch the defender then I'll shut it down and hitch back to the QB. So to your point - our receivers don't have the autonomy to run whatever they want - the options are defined as well as the decision point. Route depths, however, can become an issue when first learning the scheme because of post-snap processing time.

 

Now the example I gave is the very simplest form. Our guys can go out there at times with 5 or more options available to them based on the various coverages they are seeing from the defense and where people are (i.e. overhangs, high safeties, etc.). It takes a ton of reps to nail down, but is extremely difficult to stop if executed correctly because you essentially have a built in answer for every coverage. If you want to learn more about it look up Art Briles and the Deep Choice concept he made a living on while at Baylor.

 

Thanks for the reading recommendation. I will for sure look into it! I understand the basics. That was a loose use of the word autonomy. Apologies. 

But I digress. Your eye seems much better than mine. Do you think this offense is getting lost in the amount of variables per play we seem to have compared to past seasons?