BullBuchanan Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 42 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said: Zach Wilson was a highly touted #2 overall pick. Now I'm of the opinion that the player makes the biggest difference, not the coaching. But you can't act like a player succeeds with a bad coach. He's the only HC Wilson's ever had. So talent evaluation was wrong - he was not deserving of the #2 pick. HOWEVER - Saleh shouldn't get a pass either. He's a worse player than he was at the start, and that to me comes down to coaching at some level. Both of those statements are untrue. The problem with the first part is that bad coaches get a pass for too long if the QB succeeds, and by succeeds I mean becomes a good/great player or performs well on their own. The team can still lose games and perform poorly as a unit, as tends to happen under a bad coach. Zach Wilson has been playing the best football of his career this year, so I'm not sure how you plan on framing your narrative that he's worse now than he was as a rookie. Now, he still isn't a good player, but maybe he can become a serviceable one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 1 hour ago, Beck Water said: Just curious - can you provide any objective evidence to substantiate that? Or are we living in the land of TLAR (that looks about right)? How about him outcoaching and defeating Sean McDermott and Josh Allen with Zach Wilson? They are the 5th least penalized team in the league compared to the bills whoa re the most penalized Saleh has a 50% challenge success rate compared to McDermott's 25% rate - where McDermott is among the worst in the league Despite having a terrible offense, ball security has been good under Saleh as the Jets turn the ball over less than the Bills have in two of the last three years and less overall since he arrived. Of course the thing that coaches get judged the most on is winning, but it's kind of hard to do that when you don't have a QB, unless your name is Kyle Shanahan. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said: How about him outcoaching and defeating Sean McDermott and Josh Allen with Zach Wilson? You mean, in the Jets game where Josh Allen threw 2 "unforced error" , one "part pressure" interception, and fumbled a shotgun snap by taking his eyes off it? That's what you call "outcoaching and defeating Sean McDermott with Zach Wilson"? Sounds more like Sean McDermott got defeated by Josh Allen, to me. 1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said: They are the 5th least penalized team in the league compared to the bills whoa re the most penalized Saleh has a 50% challenge success rate compared to McDermott's 25% rate - where McDermott is among the worst in the league Hokay, Got It. Salah is far better than McDermott at team and gameday management because he has used 8 challenges in the last 3 years and won 4 vs. McDermott who has used 8 challenges in the last 3 years and won 2. Two more plays. And because the Jets are 5th least penalized team in the league - although, if we look at the league's best teams currently, the SF 49ers are right next to the Bills on both sides of the ball. On offense, the 49ers, Chiefs and Cowboys are bottom 10. Add the Dolphins and Ravens as bottom half. On defense, the 49ers, Vikings, and Jaguars are bottom 10; add the Eagles as bottom half. So the relationship between being penalized and being a good, well-coached team may not be as straightforward as you believe. I mean, look, a number of coaches manage winning records without a QB or with a bad QB (Mike Tomlin, Frank Reich) - for that matter, McDermott with Tyrod Taylor went 9-7 and so did Marrone with Orton. In 3 years, the best Salah has managed so far is 7 and 10, with the #2 pick of the 2021 draft at QB. Is this honestly your idea of a good take? Edited October 27, 2023 by Beck Water 3 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 12 minutes ago, Beck Water said: You mean, in the Jets game where Josh Allen threw 2 "unforced error" , one "part pressure" interception, and fumbled a shotgun snap by taking his eyes off it? That's what you call "outcoaching and defeating Sean McDermott with Zach Wilson"? Sounds more like Sean McDermott got defeated by Josh Allen, to me. Hokay, Got It. Salah is far better than McDermott at team and gameday management because he has used 8 challenges in the last 3 years and won 4 vs. McDermott who has used 8 challenges in the last 3 years and won 2. Two more plays. And because the Jets are 5th least penalized team in the league - although, if we look at the league's best teams currently, the SF 49ers are right next to the Bills on both sides of the ball. On offense, the 49ers, Chiefs and Cowboys are bottom 10. Add the Dolphins and Ravens as bottom half. On defense, the 49ers, Vikings, and Jaguars are bottom 10; add the Eagles as bottom half. So the relationship between being penalized and being a good, well-coached team may not be as straightforward as you believe. Is this honestly your idea of a good take? The Eagles, Chiefs, 49ers, Ravens and Bills are badly coached teams and the Jets are the best coached team in the NFL. I’m convinced 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 To all the McD haters out there I ask a simple question how many head coaches in the league do you genuinely feel are better than McD? You can and should have an argument that maybe McD isn't the right coach to take this team over the top. Fine, I think that remains to be seen but it is a fair argument at least. But to say McD is a bad head coach is just simply not accurate. Take a look at all the head coaches are the league and ask who would you for sure 100% take over McD? Coaches inarguably I would take over McD no particular order Andy Reid Mike Tomlin Sean McVay Kyle Shanny John Harbaugh Pete Carroll Coaches, I think you can maybe argue taking over McD Zac Taylor (although Bengals fans have similar critiques to him over-relying on Burrow/Chase and a stagnant at times offense) Nick Siriani Doug Peterson I know some will say Mike McDaniel but the Fins have yet to beat a good team this season and were 9-8 last season so call me a skeptic. Matt LaFleur is another one some may say but last year with Rodgers they missed the playoffs and this year Jordan Love has struggled. Others may say Billy B but his record post-Brady leaves a lot to be desired, you would be arguing on a past reputation. Dan Campbell is another one that I think some may bring up but I would like to see more sustained success with them before I put them over McD, he has not taken the Lions to the playoffs yet. That leaves McD comfortably in the top 10-12 of coaches even if you were to take a negative look at him. Would you honestly think McD is worse than the following list of coaches? Jonathan Gannon Arthur Smith Frank Reich Matt Eberflus Kevin Stefanski Mike McCarthy Sean Payton DeMeco Ryans Shane Steichen Josh McDaniels Brandon Staley Kevin O'Connell Dennis Allen Brian Daboll Robert Saleh Todd Bowles Mike Vrabel Ron Rivera There aren't many "good" let along great coaches in the league. Just remember that when discussing McD. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 19 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: To all the McD haters out there I ask a simple question how many head coaches in the league do you genuinely feel are better than McD? You can and should have an argument that maybe McD isn't the right coach to take this team over the top. Fine, I think that remains to be seen but it is a fair argument at least. But to say McD is a bad head coach is just simply not accurate. Take a look at all the head coaches are the league and ask who would you for sure 100% take over McD? Coaches inarguably I would take over McD no particular order Andy Reid Mike Tomlin Sean McVay Kyle Shanny John Harbaugh Pete Carroll Coaches, I think you can maybe argue taking over McD Zac Taylor (although Bengals fans have similar critiques to him over-relying on Burrow/Chase and a stagnant at times offense) Nick Siriani Doug Peterson I know some will say Mike McDaniel but the Fins have yet to beat a good team this season and were 9-8 last season so call me a skeptic. Matt LaFleur is another one some may say but last year with Rodgers they missed the playoffs and this year Jordan Love has struggled. Others may say Billy B but his record post-Brady leaves a lot to be desired, you would be arguing on a past reputation. Dan Campbell is another one that I think some may bring up but I would like to see more sustained success with them before I put them over McD, he has not taken the Lions to the playoffs yet. That leaves McD comfortably in the top 10-12 of coaches even if you were to take a negative look at him. Would you honestly think McD is worse than the following list of coaches? Jonathan Gannon Arthur Smith Frank Reich Matt Eberflus Kevin Stefanski Mike McCarthy Sean Payton DeMeco Ryans Shane Steichen Josh McDaniels Brandon Staley Kevin O'Connell Dennis Allen Brian Daboll Robert Saleh Todd Bowles Mike Vrabel Ron Rivera There aren't many "good" let along great coaches in the league. Just remember that when discussing McD. I am quite comfortable believing that McD is a top 10 NFL coach and also may not be the guy who gets us over the hump. I am also comfortable admitting that partially sentimentality is why I am not calling for his head, because I do believe he turned the Bills around and deserves immense gratitude for doing so. Something changes in a lockerroom after years of futility. Players tune out messages, schemes and concepts get maximized internally and then figured out externally. Andy Reid is the perfect example. He was a really good HC in Philly. Had them relevant, had them competing. Did a pretty good job by NFL standards. But at the end, it was just time. And the Eagles ended up hiring Chip Kelly, firing Chip Kelly, hiring Doug Pederson and STILL won a Super Bowl before Reid did. And we still all agree that Pederson isn’t as good of a coach as Reid, hilariously enough. So that point doesn’t really matter. I’m concerned that this team is no longer climbing. I’m concerned the players feel it and the coaches feel it. And that’s okay for a year, maybe two. After that, the regime is finished. If we do walk away from McD, I will be very grateful for all he did for the Bills. And if he finds another opportunity, I will hope he wins the Super Bowl every year (as long as we aren’t playing in it). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 Just now, FireChans said: I am quite comfortable believing that McD is a top 10 NFL coach and also may not be the guy who gets us over the hump. I am also comfortable admitting that partially sentimentality is why I am not calling for his head, because I do believe he turned the Bills around and deserves immense gratitude for doing so. Something changes in a lockerroom after years of futility. Players tune out messages, schemes and concepts get maximized internally and then figured out externally. Andy Reid is the perfect example. He was a really good HC in Philly. Had them relevant, had them competing. Did a pretty good job by NFL standards. But at the end, it was just time. And the Eagles ended up hiring Chip Kelly, firing Chip Kelly, hiring Doug Pederson and STILL won a Super Bowl before Reid did. And we still all agree that Pederson isn’t as good of a coach as Reid, hilariously enough. So that point doesn’t really matter. I’m concerned that this team is no longer climbing. I’m concerned the players feel it and the coaches feel it. And that’s okay for a year, maybe two. After that, the regime is finished. If we do walk away from McD, I will be very grateful for all he did for the Bills. And if he finds another opportunity, I will hope he wins the Super Bowl every year (as long as we aren’t playing in it). I get what you are saying and I think the conversation should be centered around McD not being the right coach as opposed to not being a good coach. There are so many fans asking if McD is a stupid head coach or if he is a good coach or not which infuriates me. I think that this team is equipped to make a run this season despite the recent struggles. I think the top 4 combo of Diggs-Davis-Kincaid-Shakir is as good a top 4 WR/TE combo as Allen has had then Knox will come back and be a 5th option which is a perfect role for him. The Bills also have the best conventional running game around Josh as they have had since he has been here. The offensive line is also one of the better O-line units put in front of Josh. The defense may not be as good as it was in the past due to key injuries but its a solid unit that I think can get better both via trade (a 1-Tech DT and a depth CB would do wonders) and via experience. Ascending/Descending is all relative, the Bills were 7-6 at one point in 2021 and despite a 11-6 record that season was likely the Bills best chance to win a Super Bowl from 2020 to 2022. I think the fundamentals of this team (better offensive line, RB and WR/TE play) are leading me to think that this team has a chance to make a run this season. And now with a "mini-bye" to rest nagging injuries they will be set up to make a run of improved play. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrior9 Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 22 hours ago, boyst said: mcdermott didn't bring those players in - he had hughes, white, hyde, poyer, lawson was good. the bills have over invested in defense and missed a whole bunch. Right, he still had to coach them, wtf are you talking about? Hughes wasn't great before McD, Poyer was an FA signing for depth and was NO ONE in Cleveland, Lawson was NOT good, he was widely viewed as a bust. Do you even think before you post? You are talking about inheriting, he has to coach who is here. That team on defense was not good before McDermott coached them. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan2313 Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 25 minutes ago, warrior9 said: Right, he still had to coach them, wtf are you talking about? Hughes wasn't great before McD, Poyer was an FA signing for depth and was NO ONE in Cleveland, Lawson was NOT good, he was widely viewed as a bust. Do you even think before you post? You are talking about inheriting, he has to coach who is here. That team on defense was not good before McDermott coached them. Period. Hughes best year were before McDermott. This is fact. The rest is a difference of opinion and we will just have to disagree 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 20 hours ago, billsfan89 said: To all the McD haters out there I ask a simple question how many head coaches in the league do you genuinely feel are better than McD? You can and should have an argument that maybe McD isn't the right coach to take this team over the top. Fine, I think that remains to be seen but it is a fair argument at least. But to say McD is a bad head coach is just simply not accurate. Take a look at all the head coaches are the league and ask who would you for sure 100% take over McD? Coaches inarguably I would take over McD no particular order Andy Reid Mike Tomlin Sean McVay Kyle Shanny John Harbaugh Pete Carroll So one thing most of these coaches have in common, is that they have won Superbowls. (Kyle Shanahan excepted, got to the Superbowl in 2019 and was beaten by the Chiefs). But I'd like to point out a couple of things here. 1. Andy Reid coached for 20 years with one (1) Superbowl loss in his 6th season to show for it. I believe it was in 2016 (12-4) after a 2nd consecutive playoff exit, Tony Dungy opined on national TV "the Chiefs may win a Superbowl, but not while Andy Reid is coaching them". So basically there was something like a 14 year stretch where the narrative on Reid was "he's a good regular season coach, but he can't win the big one". Just sayin' 2. Mike Tomlin won a Superbowl his 2nd season, went back to the Superbowl and lost to the Packers 2 years later, and hasn't been back in 12 years (and, he took over a team that was 2 years out from a Superbowl win and had an established Franchise QB). During that time, he had that QB in top performing shape for about 10-11 years. Is he a good coach, undoubtedly in my mind. But if he were coaching the Bills, don't you think the narrative would be "he's a good regular season coach but he can't win the big one"? Just sayin. 3. Sean McVay in his 7th season. Was hailed as a genius when he went to the Superbowl his 2nd year, then the narrative was "Bill Belicheck 'solved' him" as it took them 3 years to get back - in part because they kind of mortgaged their roster for a couple years after the loss, and arguably last year after the win. My take homes are 1) even geniuses have learning curves 2) it's not just the coach - possibly the GM has to be willing to sell out and go "all in" 4. Kyle Shanahan As mentioned, one Superbowl loss in 7 seasons, his 3rd year of coaching. He's held to have had bad luck with QB or "no QB" and done it without, but at some point, with all the talent they have on offense and their top-notch defense, isn't more expected? 5. John Harbaugh 16th year as a HC. Superbowl win, in his 5th season. See Shanahan. 6. Pete Carroll. 20 years as a HC. Has not been to a Superbowl or a Conference Championship in 9 years, since they lost to the Patriots on a 2nd-and-1 goal line interception where the play call was harshly second-guessed. Said to have created a monster in Russell Wilson by coddling him. I'm not saying these aren't good coaches, or that you wouldn't be right to take them over McDermott. I'm just pointing out that if we were looking at these guys with the same micrometer some of us use to measure McDermott, maybe we'd find them lacking, too. Andy Reid is a genius now-a-days, but there was a 14 year stretch when it was fashionable to bash him. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternOHBillsFan Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 3 hours ago, BillsFan2313 said: Instantly what I think of! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 On 10/27/2023 at 5:32 PM, Beck Water said: You mean, in the Jets game where Josh Allen threw 2 "unforced error" , one "part pressure" interception, and fumbled a shotgun snap by taking his eyes off it? That's what you call "outcoaching and defeating Sean McDermott with Zach Wilson"? Sounds more like Sean McDermott got defeated by Josh Allen, to me. Hokay, Got It. Salah is far better than McDermott at team and gameday management because he has used 8 challenges in the last 3 years and won 4 vs. McDermott who has used 8 challenges in the last 3 years and won 2. Two more plays. And because the Jets are 5th least penalized team in the league - although, if we look at the league's best teams currently, the SF 49ers are right next to the Bills on both sides of the ball. On offense, the 49ers, Chiefs and Cowboys are bottom 10. Add the Dolphins and Ravens as bottom half. On defense, the 49ers, Vikings, and Jaguars are bottom 10; add the Eagles as bottom half. So the relationship between being penalized and being a good, well-coached team may not be as straightforward as you believe. I mean, look, a number of coaches manage winning records without a QB or with a bad QB (Mike Tomlin, Frank Reich) - for that matter, McDermott with Tyrod Taylor went 9-7 and so did Marrone with Orton. In 3 years, the best Salah has managed so far is 7 and 10, with the #2 pick of the 2021 draft at QB. Is this honestly your idea of a good take? I guess if you're going to take the line of "stats don't matter" then you can make up anything you want and act like it's true. Have fun with that and the zero super bowls your team will get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffbigalls Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 On 10/27/2023 at 12:59 PM, HomeskillitMoorman said: The proof is in the pudding on how untrue all of this has always been. Being good at game and time management is all about hard work and preparation. Same with being composed in big moments and at the end of games and your players understanding end of game situations. This guy still makes the same exact mistakes he did in his rookie head coach season from 6 years ago. He literally hasn't learned a thing. Our players are clueless and undisciplined in big moments in the game. Look at last night's Hail Mary. It's not like we've been burned before on those in McD's tenure. It shouldn't even take that because a good head coach prepares for situations that they haven't even been burned by. With 13 seconds, I found it absurd that people were giving him the excuse of that being a learning experience when any head coach at any level should know what to do there. I'm not sure anything would even change if we were in that situation again given what we've seen from these other scenarios. The scapegoating of other coaches has also been the mantra of McD's apologists. It was Frazier that was too soft and conservative with "his" defense...McD is the head coach. He has YEARS to change anything he didn't like about what was supposedly Frazier's defense or replace him or take over himself. The fact is it's HIS defense because it's HIS team. It's the same with the offense. We keep seeing these shotgun runs on goaline situations that are repeated disasters. Yes Dorsey is a big problem...but who is letting him be that? McD hears those playcalls and is on the line, he can interject anytime he wants to. He is NOT a helpless bystander. It's HIS team. If he can't handle all of that, then guess what, that means he can't handle all of the responsibilities of a Head Coach. The majority of coaches in this league could have won the last few years with the talent we've had. The good ones probably could have won a SB. We still have a guy that after all these years still craps his pants and takes these horrible defensive timeouts when the opposition's offense is scrambling to get the next play off as time is winding down to give them time to compose themselves. That happens because again he is completely unprepared for those moments in the game. Preparation takes discipline and hard work. I remember during this whole regime all of these propaganda articles about how disciplined, gritty, and hard working this guy is. What an absolute joke. A hard worker would show a significant amount of improvement as a coach throughout all of these years. I agree with people that Andy Reid didn't work hard to improve his time and game management skills either. But the comparisons to him are ridiculous too when Reid went to what, 4 NFC championships and a Superbowl in his first 6 years?? With a lesser QB. What are we even talking about here? I'm glad a growing number of people here are actually willing to see this right now rather than just blindly defending him like what's been going on for years here. When does the "he'll learn from this" excuse for the same mistakes over and over and over expire? In year 10? Year 20? I hope there's some kind of miracle and he somehow "gets it", but when he hasn't done a thing to put in the slightest bit of work to improve himself over the last 6 years, it's hard to believe it's going to happen mid-season. I hope the talent wins out enough for us to compete...but sadly we're not winning a SB with this guy now or ever. Hard work dosent always equal positive results , just so you know that lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said: I guess if you're going to take the line of "stats don't matter" then you can make up anything you want and act like it's true. Have fun with that and the zero super bowls your team will get. My team? Is that complete and definitive acknowledgement that you are NOT a Bills fan? Take notice all! LOL at you bringing in "Stats Don't Matter". You cherry-picked two stats, to which I say, not "they don't matter" but 1) on challenges, we're talking 2 plays 2) on penalties, there seem to be a lot of very good teams in the "high penalty" box, so maybe it's not as straightforward as "unpenalized = good" Your reponse is 1) vomit reaction 2) tell me I can make up anything I want - true, but irrelevant, since I'm not making anything up 3) a sneer about "your team" What fan are you actually a fan of anyway, the Jetskis? Dude, your arguing abilities are such weak tea that if someone poured a cup, they'd mistake it for water. Edited October 31, 2023 by Beck Water 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 our coaching staff really fails on game day stuff, and that sucks because it's what we see. the results are obviously overall good, and allen is clearly the team, but the philosophical elements we have, stopping the big play and forcing the d to defend the entire field are pretty clearly done well. the situational stuff, time outs, red flag stuff, and the just obvious and dumb play calls (redzone stuff sometimes, shotgun runs on 2nd down, slow developing stuff that doesn't go for a lot of yards) and kinda regularly what we do on 3rd and long is very frustrating. mcd and dorsey put together a gem vs miami, let's see if they can do teh same vs cinci. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Beck Water said: My team? Is that complete and definitive acknowledgement that you are NOT a Bills fan? Take notice all! LOL at you bringing in "Stats Don't Matter". You cherry-picked two stats, to which I say, not "they don't matter" but 1) on challenges, we're talking 2 plays 2) on penalties, there seem to be a lot of very good teams in the "high penalty" box, so maybe it's not as straightforward as "unpenalized = good" Your reponse is 1) vomit reaction 2) tell me I can make up anything I want - true, but irrelevant, since I'm not making anything up 3) a sneer about "your team" What fan are you actually a fan of anyway, the Jetskis? Dude, your arguing abilities are such weak tea that if someone poured a cup, they'd mistake it for water. Christ. Your ridiculous takes never end. It's like debating a toddler. Edited October 31, 2023 by BullBuchanan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 On 10/27/2023 at 1:13 PM, Royale with Cheese said: I am so confused by this board. On one end, Beane sucks and don't have much talent on the roster because of his drafting. On the other end, McDermott sucks because he has a lot of talent and haven't won it. I wish I could give you 4 awesomes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low Positive Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 On 10/27/2023 at 1:13 PM, Royale with Cheese said: I am so confused by this board. On one end, Beane sucks and don't have much talent on the roster because of his drafting. On the other end, McDermott sucks because he has a lot of talent and haven't won it. My favorite is "Injuries aren't an excuse," followed by "this team doesn't have enough talent." Either talent matters or it doesn't. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 On 10/27/2023 at 7:05 PM, billsfan89 said: Coaches inarguably I would take over McD no particular order Andy Reid I reduced it to just the ones on your list with better winning percentages 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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