The Official Fire Ken Dorsey Thread

[Comebackkid]

5 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Just watched cover 1 breakdown on the offence.

 

Eric Turner was not impressed with Dorsey at all.

 

Gave him credit for scheming up diggs.

But said the spacing was awful at times, and Dorsey needs to do a better job scheming up plays for other players, especially when teams start doubling Diggs.

Spacing has been horrible all year.   Scheme for one player and you have 4 decoy on the field topped with bad spacing

19 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

I get your point.  perhaps let Joe Brady call plays for a few games?  

 

Knox seems reliable when open or standing upright, not a large catch radius otherwise. 

Knox at one time was deadly deep on the sideline

[oldmanfan]

38 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

It's a top offense because of Josh Allen running around and improvising. This offense would be top 5 with my dog randomly choosing the play. He would probably do a better job because he knows not to be in shotgun for short yardage. I tell him all the time 

Nope.  Look at the three blow outs.  Josh took what was there, spread the ball around, Diggs still got his.  And we wiped out the other teams.

Edited October 18, 2023 by oldmanfan

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Any expectations at all for Josh?  Or just:

 

 

 

 

Yes, I expect that my QB delivers the ball to a receiver in an area that he can catch it. I expect that he makes good decisions.  I expect that he delivers the ball accurately for the most part but when he doesn't, I expect the receiver to catch the ball if the QB got it to an area that the receiver can catch it.  He did that.  The receiver didn't.  I can keep explaining the same thing but you just have your ear plugs in.  On top of that you haven't addressed anything I said with this weak post.

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Dart from gun was the most productive run scheme we had vs the Giants of the schemes that were run more than twice.

 

These were different plays than the draw plays to Cook in the past.  In the past Josh was taking the ball and running over to a RB standing still.  These run plays the RB ran to Josh and took the ball with some steam.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I was ready to kill Dorsey Sunday night.  But we have a top 5 offense right now despite his odd play calls at times and despite Josh having brain freezes on occasion.  So the question is who do you bring in that would do a better job?  People always want to go where the grass is greener, but many more times than not when you do so the grass is brown.

 

So we just happen to have a guy with zero experience on our staff become a top OC... or is it more likely that we had a top QB on the roster that makes this a top offense? I wouldn't fire him now. That wouldn't do much to help us this season.  Probably make it worse.  End of the season though it depends on what we have done and who is available to interview.  At this point it's thumbs down for Dorsey from me though.

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Knox should have made the catch and Josh could have made a better throw.  It doesn’t have to be either/or.

 

Thats pretty much what is being said. The other poster though is just "Allens throw was garbage, leave my boy Knox alone."

Edited October 18, 2023 by Scott7975

[HoofHearted]

44 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

But even you know the motion is just window dressing...

 

Sure it works vs inferior coached teams ... But don't take the bait ... Keep gap integrity, hands up in the passing lane

 

Of course I would like to see our offense move into the 21st century... But I'm not impressed by all the pre-snap movements... We've all seen it 

 

We are both defensive guys... You know it's window dressing ... Good defenses don't take the bait 

 

But on that note , I would take more  pre snap movement because the NFL seems to struggle with it... Lots of teams are not disciplined 

Depends what you're doing with it. If it's just a jet motion to get eyes going one way and then you run the opposite, sure, though it's still forcing defenses to communicate on the fly and, more often than not, move at the snap of the ball. I don't understand why offenses don't do this with every run concept tbh - it's so simple and can give you such an advantage. Whats more intriguing to me is the change of strength motions because now you're getting teams misaligned unless they adjust with the motion, which again gets guys moving at the snap. And then what Miami is doing with motions putting force players in conflict is really good stuff.

16 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

These were different plays than the draw plays to Cook in the past.  In the past Josh was taking the ball and running over to a RB standing still.  These run plays the RB ran to Josh and took the ball with some steam.

We've run draw maybe 3 times this year. Last week our backfield action looked just as you described when we ran Dart out of gun and it hit last week too.

[HoofHearted]

11 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

He sounded so unsure of himself in his press conference.

Well shoot when you’re asked about all the “shotgun draws” you ran against the Giants and you didn’t run draw a single time I’d be unsure about what’s going on too 🤣🤣🤣

1 hour ago, BillsFan130 said:

Just watched cover 1 breakdown on the offence.

 

Eric Turner was not impressed with Dorsey at all.

 

Gave him credit for scheming up diggs.

But said the spacing was awful at times, and Dorsey needs to do a better job scheming up plays for other players, especially when teams start doubling Diggs.

Eric Turner also only included plays where Diggs was the number one read in the progression (even included one where he wasn’t but said he was) to push his narrative. There were plenty of concepts that schemed other players open. We hit some of them (Gabe specifically) and failed to execute others.

 

Dude says some off the wall things in those videos sometimes that people here take as gospel.

[Bockeye]

2 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Can you enlighten us on who has been consistent this season?

 

 

Panthers have been consistent.  

[GoBills808]

20 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Well shoot when you’re asked about all the “shotgun draws” you ran against the Giants and you didn’t run draw a single time I’d be unsure about what’s going on too 🤣🤣🤣

Eric Turner also only included plays where Diggs was the number one read in the progression (even included one where he wasn’t but said he was) to push his narrative. There were plenty of concepts that schemed other players open. We hit some of them (Gabe specifically) and failed to execute others.

 

Dude says some off the wall things in those videos sometimes that people here take as gospel.

I just watched that video

 

He keeps saying we are running this rpo out of duo concept but looks like inside zone

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I just watched that video

 

He keeps saying we are running this rpo out of duo concept but looks like inside zone

He calls every run with an in-line tight end duo lol. We ran ISO all last week and he called it duo every time…

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

It is not in any way realistic to expect every QB to make an accurate throw on every play nor is it reasonable to expect every receiver/TE/RB to catch every pass, especially errant ones.  It’s just not the real world.

 

Allen right now is leading the NFL in completion percentage with 71.7%.

 

Knox is 4th worst of qualifying players in drop percentage with an abysmal 16.0%, and yes that final 3rd down play was officially logged as a drop by Pro Football Reference.

 

When the ball hits both of your hands and it isn't behind you, you have to bring it in. It's the NFL. That is an expected catch every time.

 

If you're expecting Allen to be more accurate than he has been this season, that's almost impossible. Expecting Knox to drop less than 16% of his targets on the other hand is a reasonable ask. Either he has to be better in that area or we have to stop throwing him the ball.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by HappyDays

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

What I find curious is that this particular throw is something that should be accurate 90+% of the time

 

I think it's time we look at the play again, because I'm seeing a ton of people say it's an easy throw and I saw one poster describe it as a throw that a high school QB would hit.

 

High school QB throw. Lol.

 

I said this in another thread, but we take for granted how hard it is to throw on the run like that because Josh does it all the time. But the precision on that sort of throw is naturally going to be high variance. He has to throw against his own body momentum and make sure he puts it in front of Knox so the trailing defenders can't impact the play. It's ridiculous to expect perfect touch or a pinpoint throw there.

 

An average NFL pass catcher in this situation judges the trajectory of the ball and immediately starts subtly adjusting their body to catch it while falling to the ground. Knox did not have to scoop it off the turf with his fingertips or miraculously contort his body. It is almost identical to the drop he had in OT against the Jets. Knox reminds me of McKenzie, he is too clumsy and unfocused in big moments to ever be a dependable pass catcher.

 

They need to give most of Knox's target share to Kincaid once Kincaid is out of concussion protocol. Whatever that entails with the scheme or the playcalling, it needs to happen.

[MJS]

Wait, what actually makes this official?

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Just watched cover 1 breakdown on the offence.

 

Eric Turner was not impressed with Dorsey at all.

 

Gave him credit for scheming up diggs.

But said the spacing was awful at times, and Dorsey needs to do a better job scheming up plays for other players, especially when teams start doubling Diggs.

 

I've said this before, I'll put it out here again.

 

I enjoy Cover1.  I learn stuff, and Erik Turner is one of the guys I learn stuff from.  He's played, he's coached, he knows ball.  I'm sure he's forgotten more than I know.

 

That said....at the end of the day Erik and the other Cover1 guys are not football professionals.  Erik played in HS and DIII college (St John Fisher), and was (is?) a coaching assistant at a local HS. 

 

We have guys who post on this board whose football background and experience are stronger - they played at a higher level in college, they have more experience scouting professionally, they have more experience coaching.  You can probably figure out who they are.

 

Again, I watch Cover1, I learn, I enjoy - but sometimes they're mistaken in what they see or how they interpret it.  And they're human like the rest of us, they form an opinion and suffer the same confirmation bias we all suffer where they fit information into their opinion.

 

So my $0.02, take them with a little grain of salt and don't consider them more definitive than some of the folks with a contrasting views here.

 

I do think there are some issues with route running - for whatever reason, I don't think routes are always being run at the optimal depth to create confliction for defenders, and it's possible that sometimes when there are option routes, the receivers aren't choosing the correct option.  That's probably on the WR coach, possibly on the way Dorsey is drawing up the plays and possibly it's being done that way for a reason at times (quicker routes?)

Edited October 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

39 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think it's time we look at the play again, because I'm seeing a ton of people say it's an easy throw and I saw one poster describe it as a throw that a high school QB would hit.

 

High school QB throw. Lol.

 

I said this in another thread, but we take for granted how hard it is to throw on the run like that because Josh does it all the time. But the precision on that sort of throw is naturally going to be high variance. He has to throw against his own body momentum and make sure he puts it in front of Knox so the trailing defenders can't impact the play. It's ridiculous to expect perfect touch or a pinpoint throw there.

 

An average NFL pass catcher in this situation judges the trajectory of the ball and immediately starts subtly adjusting their body to catch it while falling to the ground. Knox did not have to scoop it off the turf with his fingertips or miraculously contort his body. It is almost identical to the drop he had in OT against the Jets. Knox reminds me of McKenzie, he is too clumsy and unfocused in big moments to ever be a dependable pass catcher.

 

They need to give most of Knox's target share to Kincaid once Kincaid is out of concussion protocol. Whatever that entails with the scheme or the playcalling, it needs to happen.

 

That's not a HS QB throw, and it was accurate enough that a top-notch receiver should get there and hang on to it, but I also think it's not scored as a drop by Knox either.  Scored drops are "incomplete passes where  the receiver should have caught the pass with ordinary effort"; that dive was not "ordinary effort".

 

Knox is a puzzling case because after early issues with focus and eye-hand coordination, he went to that specialist in the 2021 off-season and really upped his pass catching game.  Brought his catch % up from mid-50% to 69-74%, brought his drop % down from 20% to 9% to 5.6%-6.2%.  But this season, I don't know - maybe he decided he was "cured" and didn't need to keep catching his ping-pong balls or whatever it was he did, because his catch % is back where it was his first 2 seasons, and his drop % is up where it was his first 2 seasons.

 

But aren't you the guy who has a source that says Knox is playing with a damaged ligament in his hand and possibly a fracture?

 

(odd that he isn't on injury report if that's true).

 

I can't disagree with giving more targets to Kincaid, though he does need to become more physical dealing with 'sticky' coverage (and to sell the DH and DPI better)

 

It seems to be a general problem for the Bills that we have a bunch of receivers who do well enough with ordinary on target throws, but who seem to struggle to bring in the off-target, too high, too low, but makeable catches which (confirmation bias) I seem to see other team's #2 and #3 receivers pulling in on the regular.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Lol any criticism of Allen is met with irrational revisionist insanity.  You know who agrees with me that Allen’s throw was the primary culprit on that play?  Not Dorsey’s call, not Knox’s “drop”, not whatever horrifying mistake Davis made on that play….but Allen’s throw?  Josh Allen agrees, that’s who agrees.  Watch his interview after the game.

 

Allen is always going to take the blame in public.  Possibly more than he should in private, as well.

 

But when a guy throws an ad hominem like "any criticism of Allen is met with irrational revisionist insanity" into discussion, it's usually a sign that he's defending an indefensible position and turns to the personal attack as a substitute for facts or persuasion.

 

Just sayin'.

 

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Allen right now is leading the NFL in completion percentage with 71.7%.

 

Knox is 4th worst of qualifying players in drop percentage with an abysmal 16.0%, and yes that final 3rd down play was officially logged as a drop by Pro Football Reference.

 

When the ball hits both of your hands and it isn't behind you, you have to bring it in. It's the NFL. That is an expected catch every time.

 

If you're expecting Allen to be more accurate than he has been this season, that's almost impossible. Expecting Knox to drop less than 16% of his targets on the other hand is a reasonable ask. Either he has to be better in that area or we have to stop throwing him the ball.

 

 

OK, I sit corrected then.  From the film clips I've seen I would have thought it wasn't.

 

You're correct on Knox drops though.  Not only is it a reasonable expectation, it's one he met in 2020 and 2021.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

We've run draw maybe 3 times this year. Last week our backfield action looked just as you described when we ran Dart out of gun and it hit last week too.

Ok I don’t know football terminology like you do so that’s probably where our disconnect is. I’ll explain what I am calling a draw. Shot gun. Allen takes the snap and runs over to standing still Cook and gives him the ball. That play has been run a ton. Not just 3 times. It hasn’t been as good as the handoffs we’ve seen this week and also some of last week. 

[oldmanfan]

29 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Ok I don’t know football terminology like you do so that’s probably where our disconnect is. I’ll explain what I am calling a draw. Shot gun. Allen takes the snap and runs over to standing still Cook and gives him the ball. That play has been run a ton. Not just 3 times. It hasn’t been as good as the handoffs we’ve seen this week and also some of last week. 

They need to take that out of the playbook, burn it, and bury the ashes.

[Scott7975]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

They need to take that out of the playbook, burn it, and bury the ashes.

I completely agree with that. Not only is it slow developing but the running back has no steam, the defenders see it coming a mile away, and the defenders are already crashing the line by the time Cook starts to run. 

[BillsFan130]

6 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Well shoot when you’re asked about all the “shotgun draws” you ran against the Giants and you didn’t run draw a single time I’d be unsure about what’s going on too 🤣🤣🤣

Eric Turner also only included plays where Diggs was the number one read in the progression (even included one where he wasn’t but said he was) to push his narrative. There were plenty of concepts that schemed other players open. We hit some of them (Gabe specifically) and failed to execute others.

 

Dude says some off the wall things in those videos sometimes that people here take as gospel.

Ya fair enough I wasn’t saying everything he was saying was accurate. I Was just sharing his breakdown.

Joe Marino did criticize Dorsey for sure, but blamed more execution.

 

Probably the 2 biggest voices on social media for bills content have somewhat conflicting conclusions.

 
So I was definitely not taking what he was saying for pure gospel and was just sharing his opinion 

[4merper4mer]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think it's time we look at the play again, because I'm seeing a ton of people say it's an easy throw and I saw one poster describe it as a throw that a high school QB would hit.

 

High school QB throw. Lol.

 

I said this in another thread, but we take for granted how hard it is to throw on the run like that because Josh does it all the time. But the precision on that sort of throw is naturally going to be high variance. He has to throw against his own body momentum and make sure he puts it in front of Knox so the trailing defenders can't impact the play. It's ridiculous to expect perfect touch or a pinpoint throw there.

 

An average NFL pass catcher in this situation judges the trajectory of the ball and immediately starts subtly adjusting their body to catch it while falling to the ground. Knox did not have to scoop it off the turf with his fingertips or miraculously contort his body. It is almost identical to the drop he had in OT against the Jets. Knox reminds me of McKenzie, he is too clumsy and unfocused in big moments to ever be a dependable pass catcher.

 

They need to give most of Knox's target share to Kincaid once Kincaid is out of concussion protocol. Whatever that entails with the scheme or the playcalling, it needs to happen.

What prevented Allen from throwing the ball higher?  What prevents you from expecting more from Allen like you do from Knox?

3 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Allen is always going to take the blame in public.  Possibly more than he should in private, as well.

 

But when a guy throws an ad hominem like "any criticism of Allen is met with irrational revisionist insanity" into discussion, it's usually a sign that he's defending an indefensible position and turns to the personal attack as a substitute for facts or persuasion.

 

Just sayin'.

 

 

OK, I sit corrected then.  From the film clips I've seen I would have thought it wasn't.

 

You're correct on Knox drops though.  Not only is it a reasonable expectation, it's one he met in 2020 and 2021.

Incorrect use of ad hominem.  I called the posts irrational and insane, which they were, I did not call the posters that.  Just sayin.