PBF81 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 8 hours ago, Mike in Horseheads said: Another manifesto I see. You and Newcam should get a private chat room together Yes, cute. The manifestos in fact are the viva la Ron Rivera Coaching Tree "power to the Carolina way" types that insist there's nothing better than a McD coached team, entirely rooted in the emotional and the apple that fell from the Ron Rivera tree. Thanks for addressing the facts in my statement. LOL I'm happy for those of you that place so much faith in the former Çarolina coaching team sans Rivera. I wish I had as much blind faith. I realize that McD's right behind Ron in getting his first SB win. If the pattern holds, McD will be fired following the '25 season. The suspense continues to build. LOL If it plays out that way, you too will be questioning why they didn't jettison him sooner for someone capable of getting the job done. The room for all of you later this season likely won't be big enough and should be quite interesting. Let's hope you can mock the daylights out of me in 7 months, if so then I'll be a happy man. 🙂 Go Bills!!! Let the games begin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 1 hour ago, newcam2012 said: That's more than a fair way of seeing things. Our eyes are a little different but I totally respect what you are saying. 👍 A fair amount of this discussion is folks talking past one another. I find myself in a "middle position" with regards to the dominant perspectives apparently. I incurred the wrath of a chippy poster because I pointed out the relatively disappointing playoff performance of a team with a top 3 franchise qb. I credit McDermott and Beane with building a strong team that consistently achieves regular season success. But surely the point of the latter is to ultimately succeed in the former. If Josh Allen had a twenty year career in front of him, there would be no compelling urgency, but the effective window for a franchise qb is about the lifespan of a dog. So you have to take advantage of your opportunities. Despite the overall quality of the team, there are still some questions about roster construction. I think Gabe Davis at WR2 is deficient, for instance. Nonetheless, McDermott and Beane are a winning combination. However, I still believe there needs to be appreciable advancement in the playoffs. Conference finals or Super Bowl ought to be the expectation and if they continue to miss out from that level of accomplishment for say the next two or three years, all the other achievements become less flattering. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 6 hours ago, oldmanfan said: Jim Kelly is a HOF QB that took a team to 4 straight Super Bowls. I love Josh but to say he is the best QB the franchise has ever had by a country mile is absurd and shows your willingness to say anything to bash the current coaching staff. Hmm. You're really reaching here. A. I believe that Kelly has said the same thing; B. I dare you to post a poll here asking which of the two is the better QB straight up. I thought you were being sarcastic until I got to your conclusion. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcam2012 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: A fair amount of this discussion is folks talking past one another. I find myself in a "middle position" with regards to the dominant perspectives apparently. I incurred the wrath of a chippy poster because I pointed out the relatively disappointing playoff performance of a team with a top 3 franchise qb. I credit McDermott and Beane with building a strong team that consistently achieves regular season success. But surely the point of the latter is to ultimately succeed in the former. If Josh Allen had a twenty year career in front of him, there would be no compelling urgency, but the effective window for a franchise qb is about the lifespan of a dog. So you have to take advantage of your opportunities. Despite the overall quality of the team, there are still some questions about roster construction. I think Gabe Davis at WR2 is deficient, for instance. Nonetheless, McDermott and Beane are a winning combination. However, I still believe there needs to be appreciable advancement in the playoffs. Conference finals or Super Bowl ought to be the expectation and if they continue to miss out from that level of accomplishment for say the next two or three years, all the other achievements become less flattering. Very reasonable post. Appreciate such a well thought out post. Hard to quibble with anything you said. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Hmm. You're really reaching here. A. I believe that Kelly has said the same thing; B. I dare you to post a poll here asking which of the two is the better QB straight up. I thought you were being sarcastic until I got to your conclusion. LOL I could care less about doing a poll. You don’t like the current regime. Fine. But to try and say a younger guy like Josh is way better than a first ballot HOFer is silly. 6 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: A fair amount of this discussion is folks talking past one another. I find myself in a "middle position" with regards to the dominant perspectives apparently. I incurred the wrath of a chippy poster because I pointed out the relatively disappointing playoff performance of a team with a top 3 franchise qb. I credit McDermott and Beane with building a strong team that consistently achieves regular season success. But surely the point of the latter is to ultimately succeed in the former. If Josh Allen had a twenty year career in front of him, there would be no compelling urgency, but the effective window for a franchise qb is about the lifespan of a dog. So you have to take advantage of your opportunities. Despite the overall quality of the team, there are still some questions about roster construction. I think Gabe Davis at WR2 is deficient, for instance. Nonetheless, McDermott and Beane are a winning combination. However, I still believe there needs to be appreciable advancement in the playoffs. Conference finals or Super Bowl ought to be the expectation and if they continue to miss out from that level of accomplishment for say the next two or three years, all the other achievements become less flattering. I would say with the rules against hitting QBs has extended QB life spans. But as long as you haven’t won improvement needs to happen, no question. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I don't agree with much of the rest of your post but as you know I always try and be fair and this para I do agree with. McDermott definitely has a "control freak" element to his personality (not necessarily a bad thing a lot of coaches do) but I think he does basically have his people in all the key positions now - GM, AHC, OC, senior defensive assistant. He has known Leslie forever of course as well but behind the quiet, calm demenour Leslie is made of steel and I think he would absolutely push back behind closed doors. We know there was tension at the end between he and Dabes. One thing I should say for Dorsey is that he actually did pretty well for a first timer last year and he was Daboll's first choice to go with him as OC in New York (I think he had two other teams - Jags and Bears - wanting to make him OC at that point too so he was legitimately one of the next cabs off the rank league wide). So there must be more to him than just being a McDermott patsie. Hopefully he has learnt frome some of the mistakes he did make last year. You don't always agree with me. Hmm, I thought you did. 😁 Yes, all of your X's haven't escaped my notice. LOL Agree with you on Dorsey to the extent that we as fans have little clue as to what was going on "in the both" or "on the sidelines." I would say that he didn't embarrass himself, but he did once with that childish tablet incident that McD had to call him out on and reel him in. Otherwise, when your QB provides both the passing and primary rushing element, IMO it's a reach that he leaned towards the optimal. Let me ask you tho, since there's a lot of criticism but no one addressing the fact, and it now is an absolute fact that the top five coaches on the staff and ones that will be making 99% (or so) LOL, decisions, are now literally the same ones that ran the Panthers while McD was there, a team that also underachieved with lackluster results. Does that really inspire you? I think you'll answer that honestly. No one else has responded to it. And go beyond the soft intangible stuff. Yes, I realize that he's comfortable with them, knows them, trusts them, has worked with them, blah blah, etc. But that's not enough as lots of people that have worked together haven't succeeded in that way, there's no need to even mention name, it's also common sense. If this were 2020 and he did that, I'd envision him getting run out of town. Edited June 25, 2023 by PBF81 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcam2012 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 27 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Yes, cute. The manifestos in fact are the viva la Ron Rivera Coaching Tree "power to the Carolina way" types that insist there's nothing better than a McD coached team, entirely rooted in the emotional and the apple that fell from the Ron Rivera tree. Thanks for addressing the facts in my statement. LOL I'm happy for those of you that place so much faith in the former Çarolina coaching team sans Rivera. I wish I had as much blind faith. I realize that McD's right behind Ron in getting his first SB win. If the pattern holds, McD will be fired following the '25 season. The suspense continues to build. LOL If it plays out that way, you too will be questioning why they didn't jettison him sooner for someone capable of getting the job done. The room for all of you later this season likely won't be big enough and should be quite interesting. Let's hope you can mock the daylights out of me in 7 months, if so then I'll be a happy man. 🙂 Go Bills!!! Let the games begin! You should be reported for plagiarism. You copied the Carolina playbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 10 minutes ago, newcam2012 said: You should be reported for plagiarism. You copied the Carolina playbook. I'm still shaking my head when I think about it. I wasn't big on either Daboll or Frasier, but going from them to Brady, Washington, and Holcomb, I mean what has any single ones of them done? Nada! They've all been demoted at some point except for Brady who was awful as an OC in Carolina and otherwise had incredibly limited experience. Then there's Dorsey who doesn't seem to understand how a running game can compliment a passing game. I still say he's living out his collegiate career again vicariously thru Allen. Those are the guys everyone's pinning their hopes on. It's remarkable. IMO McD's desire to keep such a right grip in the control of this team is going to backfire and ruin a good thing. 7 hours ago, GoBills808 said: By a country mile A country mile I tell you! Someone's you just have to laugh at yourself. 😁😎 3 hours ago, newcam2012 said: Great minds think alike. Thank you! 😉 😂 😎 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: A fair amount of this discussion is folks talking past one another. I find myself in a "middle position" with regards to the dominant perspectives apparently. I incurred the wrath of a chippy poster because I pointed out the relatively disappointing playoff performance of a team with a top 3 franchise qb. I credit McDermott and Beane with building a strong team that consistently achieves regular season success. But surely the point of the latter is to ultimately succeed in the former. If Josh Allen had a twenty year career in front of him, there would be no compelling urgency, but the effective window for a franchise qb is about the lifespan of a dog. So you have to take advantage of your opportunities. Despite the overall quality of the team, there are still some questions about roster construction. I think Gabe Davis at WR2 is deficient, for instance. Nonetheless, McDermott and Beane are a winning combination. However, I still believe there needs to be appreciable advancement in the playoffs. Conference finals or Super Bowl ought to be the expectation and if they continue to miss out from that level of accomplishment for say the next two or three years, all the other achievements become less flattering. That window could very well be even smaller for Allen given the incredibly physical style of his play, he's not the ordinary QB. If he wants that window to be longer, he'll have to turn into a top notch pocket passer too using his skills only to buy some time to throw, not perpetually challenging the top rusher on the team for yardage. But what are your direct thoughts on the composition of our senior coaching staff right now? Other than Rivera we have the Carolina staff from 2011-2026. Does this sit well with you? Are you comfortable and inspired by that? For the life of me I can't see why anyone is. Edited June 25, 2023 by PBF81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schoolhouserock Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 3 hours ago, newcam2012 said: Great minds think alike. Simple minds seldom differ. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 47 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I could care less about doing a poll. You don’t like the current regime. Fine. But to try and say a younger guy like Josh is way better than a first ballot HOFer is silly. I'm sure you don't as I'm pretty sure you know what the results of that poll will be. Nearly everyone refers to Allen as a "generational talent." He's notably more athletic than Kelly ever was, rules aside, and had a much stronger arm. Kelly want even consistently in the top 5 of his day. You do realize that, don't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 3 hours ago, newcam2012 said: I think Allen is physically more gifted then Kelly. However, there's no way you can put Allen ahead of Kelly. It's just an unfair comparasion. Kelly is a hall of famer whose career has ended. Allen hasn't even sniffed what Kelly has accomplished nor has he played enough football. It would be Kelly hands down for me if I had to pick one right now based on what we know. The major reasons are I knew Kelly would get It done when the game was on the line. I recall thinking over and over please give Kelly a chance. Get the ball back. Most often Kelly was able to be successful. I just don't have the same level of confidence in Allen. That's not a knock on Allen as it is a compliment to Kelly. Secondly, Kelly made four straight SB appearances. Should have a ring but wide right still haunts many Bills fans. That feat is quite remarkable despite falling short. Allen had to earn his way past Kelly. With time hopefully he does. He's not there yet. Vince young was physically more gifted that Jim Kelly too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 10 minutes ago, schoolhouserock said: Simple minds seldom differ. The word irony strongly confess to mind. 😉 1 minute ago, NewEra said: Vince young was physically more gifted that Jim Kelly too With a fraction of the brain. Homer Simpson comes to mind when thinking about Young's intellectual assets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 6/23/2023 at 10:07 AM, BillsFan130 said: Kind of seems like weird timing. Why not wait until 2023 plays out as I believe this was not the last year on their contracts Probably figure they aren't going to do any better so double down and go for it. Plus remember, it's not just about a superbowl. It's about making money. And this current team puts asses in the seats, even these considerably more expensive ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 I'm travelling and not on here much these days. I wanted to reply to this thread when it began, and I have no idea at all whether this has been discussed in the 36 pages available to me: I'm a big supporter of Beane and McDermott. I have a lot of confidence in them. I will be proved right or I will be proved wrong. However, I do not think their contract extensions answer the "hot seat" question. There is no salary cap for coaches and GMs, which makes firing them different from cutting players. Cutting players costs money AND impairs your ability to build by creating dead cap money. Cutting coaches and GMs just cost money. Most owners can afford the lost money much better than teams can afford the dead cap. If the Pegulas get tired of the McBeane show, I don't think the extension will keep them from making a move. I don't think they will make a move, because I don't think they'll get tired of the show. Instead, I think they'll be celebrating a Super Bowl win, and there will be more extensions to come. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: I'm travelling and not on here much these days. Good for you. This place is more toxic than ever before 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 21 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: I'm travelling and not on here much these days. I wanted to reply to this thread when it began, and I have no idea at all whether this has been discussed in the 36 pages available to me: I'm a big supporter of Beane and McDermott. I have a lot of confidence in them. I will be proved right or I will be proved wrong. However, I do not think their contract extensions answer the "hot seat" question. There is no salary cap for coaches and GMs, which makes firing them different from cutting players. Cutting players costs money AND impairs your ability to build by creating dead cap money. Cutting coaches and GMs just cost money. Most owners can afford the lost money much better than teams can afford the dead cap. If the Pegulas get tired of the McBeane show, I don't think the extension will keep them from making a move. I don't think they will make a move, because I don't think they'll get tired of the show. Instead, I think they'll be celebrating a Super Bowl win, and there will be more extensions to come. Agree, but I see it more as a business decision. In the 1st new stadium behind-the-scenes video they just posted, they said "the best thing the Buffalo Bills can do to enhance economic vitality in our community is win football games." As fans, we don't want to hear it, but that does NOT mean winning a Super Bowl. It simply means being a winning team, a playoff team, a consistent contender, just a damn likeable team. Terry knows that the McBeane team is a winning team and he will draw that out for as long as possible to ensure economic vitality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 1 hour ago, PBF81 said: You don't always agree with me. Hmm, I thought you did. 😁 Yes, all of your X's haven't escaped my notice. LOL Agree with you on Dorsey to the extent that we as fans have little clue as to what was going on "in the both" or "on the sidelines." I would say that he didn't embarrass himself, but he did once with that childish tablet incident that McD had to call him out on and reel him in. Otherwise, when your QB provides both the passing and primary rushing element, IMO it's a reach that he leaned towards the optimal. Let me ask you tho, since there's a lot of criticism but no one addressing the fact, and it now is an absolute fact that the top five coaches on the staff and ones that will be making 99% (or so) LOL, decisions, are now literally the same ones that ran the Panthers while McD was there, a team that also underachieved with lackluster results. Does that really inspire you? I think you'll answer that honestly. No one else has responded to it. And go beyond the soft intangible stuff. Yes, I realize that he's comfortable with them, knows them, trusts them, has worked with them, blah blah, etc. But that's not enough as lots of people that have worked together haven't succeeded in that way, there's no need to even mention name, it's also common sense. If this were 2020 and he did that, I'd envision him getting run out of town. I am not inspired by the defensive assistant situation and have said that many times. I am not as down on Dorey as you but I agree about the tantrum and I called him out on it here at the time to much criticism. Am I inspired by the people running the franchise? Yes. It comes down to my belief that McDermott and Beane > Rivera and Gettleman. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 The only way the Pegulas get tired of the McBeane show is if 1. they start having a losing record and fall out of playoff contention or 2. the organisation or someone within it commits some kind of scandal or becomes toxic in a way that forever tarnishes the brand IMO, not winning a Super Bowl is not a factor in maintaining economic vitality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: The only way the Pegulas get tired of the McBeane show is if 1. they start having a losing record and fall out of playoff contention or 2. the organisation or someone within it commits some kind of scandal or becomes toxic in a way that forever tarnishes the brand IMO, not winning a Super Bowl is not a factor in maintaining economic vitality. I think this is a good take. The only way the Super Bowl is relevant is if there is some fan uprising, a revolt of sorts, but the only relevant part of a fan revolution would be decrease in ticket sales. If they're competitive and selling tickets, McBeane probably are safe. As others have said, may times, all this "hot seat" stuff is just something to write and talk about during the off season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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