OC Dorsey no regard for clock Management

[What a Tuel]

Does anyone doubt there would be threads on how Dorsey was a coward for running the ball 3 times and giving the ball right back to the Jets to score as opposed to giving your 250 million dollar QB the ball to control the game?

 

This is a classic case of bills fans desire to B word about everything.

[What a Tuel]

7 minutes ago, Toyo321 said:

When is the last time this team tried a trick play on offense???   I can't recall the last attempt anytime in the last 10 games much less 2022.

 

Dorsey is trash as a OC.  The only thing that has bailed out his sorry ass has been JA17's ability to improvise on the field. 

 

You put any other QB behind center with our OC, and this offense is in the bottom 1/3 of the league.

 

When you have your star wide receiver having it out on the field with your head coach for everyone to see you know something is wrong.

 

Sheesh, what a bunch of bologna. Any other QB?

 

Also Diggs having it out with our HC 3 games ago by softly talking to each other and then scoring a TD? yeah something is terribly wrong. 😂

[Epstein's Mother]

12 minutes ago, Toyo321 said:

When you have your star wide receiver having it out on the field with your head coach for everyone to see you know something is wrong.

 

This is an inaccurate description of what happened.

[Eastport bills]

16 hours ago, jahbonas said:

I was shocked when a reporter asked Dorsey about his play calling in the series near the 7 minutes left in the game mark and up 11

In that series we ran it on 1st down with incomplete passes on 2nd and 3rd down saving a critical minute for the Jets

Reporter basically asked didnt he consider running the ball 3x there to run clock and force the Jets into using some timeouts - his response was not a thought at all  - he wanted to keep the offense balanced

We cant have an OC living in a bubble not differentiating between play calling in the first quarter from calling plays in a 4th qtr with a lead  - we will get burned by this

If you’re old enough to remember Brady’s years in NE, they always threw passes trying to extend drives under 7 minutes, effectively not giving the opposition chances to score. When you have a great QB you throw high percentage passes as alternatives to running into 8 man fronts. Dorsey can’t be blamed for drops or bad routes.

[Shaw66]

I read some of this thread yesterday and wanted to post. 

 

Personally, I'm pretty conservative, and at the time I wanted the Bills to run the ball three times.  I think driving that minute or more off the clock is valuable at that point in the game.   Plus, good teams are supposed to be able to run the ball and at least in the old days, that time of the game is when good teams won just by running it.  

 

However, reading the thread, I see the wisdom of throwing - particularly because that's your strength.  One completed pass in that situation gets a first down AND keeps the clock running, and that's really valuable. 

 

In any case, I would guess that the focus on Dorsey is misplaced.  I seriously doubt that whether to go into play calling based on clock management is his call.  It's McDermott's.   In fact, I think the decision is driven by their analytics.   With an 11 point lead, do you try to kill the clock with 10 minutes left?  Six minutes?   Four minutes?   Trailing by 11, do you use your timeouts at 10 minutes, six minutes, four minutes?  Those are classic analytics questions.   So, I'm sure someone tells Dorsey whether he's running his whole playbook at that point in the game or running his clock-management-protecting-a-lead playbook.  And I'm sure McDermott, not Dorsey, gets to override the analytics advice. 

 

Which is not to say that Dorsey isn't a problem.   His offense isn't producing, and that was a key point in the game.  If the Bills have a good offense, he's supposed to have plays that will succeed.  Too often, he doesn't.  

[Orlando Tim]

OP obviously is unaware that twice in the past week or so a team has scored 2 times in last 4 minutes to win a game. 7 minutes is much too early for just burning clock, you run your normal offense and just make sure you stay in bounds but first downs are more important than 30 seconds.

[sunshynman]

1 hour ago, Toyo321 said:

When is the last time this team tried a trick play on offense???   I can't recall the last attempt anytime in the last 10 games much less 2022.

In this game when Knox went in motion to lining up for the hand-off! And it was successful! Jeesh!

[Epstein's Mother]

I can't imagine what the second guessing would be like if the Bills actually lost this game.  These are top of the league problems we're discussing.

[LittleSammy]

Are you really Jerry Sullivan in disguise? That is the type of question Sullivan usually asks.

[Little Dog]

17 hours ago, jahbonas said:

I was shocked when a reporter asked Dorsey about his play calling in the series near the 7 minutes left in the game mark and up 11

In that series we ran it on 1st down with incomplete passes on 2nd and 3rd down saving a critical minute for the Jets

Reporter basically asked didnt he consider running the ball 3x there to run clock and force the Jets into using some timeouts - his response was not a thought at all  - he wanted to keep the offense balanced

We cant have an OC living in a bubble not differentiating between play calling in the first quarter from calling plays in a 4th qtr with a lead  - we will get burned by this

 

14 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

his goal there needs to be first downs and not simply 3 runs 

How many coaches do you see calling timeouts with 7 minutes left on the clock

[WideNine]

2 hours ago, vincec said:

It was a decent call because you knew it would be open. The only wild card was the impact of the weather conditions, which did affect the play (under thrown pass + not a strong catch). But given the Bills inability to run the ball, it's hard to question it, unless you just wanted to basically give up and make the Jets use their timeouts and punt.

 

Folks keep saying the Bills inability to run the ball, but I am not sure what folks expect from a run game.. these days - 10+ yards chunks?

 

WHEN the Bills have run the ball they usually average over 4 yards a carry and that is an effective run game.

 

Against the Jets D we were averaging over 6. If I take away Allen's runs and Isaiah's jet sweep, we were still just under 4 yards a carry between Motor and Cook. That was mostly early before the Jets' Williams exited the game.

 

With the way our defense was playing and our punter was punting, that is the route I would have gone.

 

Not every run is going to break through, but if you stay committed to it usually you will break one. Late in a game with a 2 score lead you use up the clock and keep your QB upright for the next game

 

 

[hjnick]

18 hours ago, jahbonas said:

I was shocked when a reporter asked Dorsey about his play calling in the series near the 7 minutes left in the game mark and up 11

In that series we ran it on 1st down with incomplete passes on 2nd and 3rd down saving a critical minute for the Jets

Reporter basically asked didnt he consider running the ball 3x there to run clock and force the Jets into using some timeouts - his response was not a thought at all  - he wanted to keep the offense balanced

We cant have an OC living in a bubble not differentiating between play calling in the first quarter from calling plays in a 4th qtr with a lead  - we will get burned by this

IF we had a big battering ram and an offensive line that could get us 3-4 yards when the JETS are flooding ppl up to the line, then I'd say ok.

 

BUT with our offense, we are at an advantage at that time to throw the ball.  The LB's will be coming in and will leave gaps for players to run into.  WE JUST HAVE TO CATCH THE DAMN BALL!!!

 

Don't take the foot off the accelerator.

[Dr.Sack]

On our second to last drive he dialed up a bootleg pass on 1st down. I would have preferred a WR screen pass 

[Patrick Duffy]

18 hours ago, jahbonas said:

I was shocked when a reporter asked Dorsey about his play calling in the series near the 7 minutes left in the game mark and up 11

In that series we ran it on 1st down with incomplete passes on 2nd and 3rd down saving a critical minute for the Jets

Reporter basically asked didnt he consider running the ball 3x there to run clock and force the Jets into using some timeouts - his response was not a thought at all  - he wanted to keep the offense balanced

We cant have an OC living in a bubble not differentiating between play calling in the first quarter from calling plays in a 4th qtr with a lead  - we will get burned by this

 

I don't see a big issue here, I mean I understand (I think) your point of view thinking to run the ball to keep clock going. However at that time in the game with close to 7 mins left Jets likely won't use their Time Outs that early. 

 

So being up 2 possessions with Jets needing at least a TD and converting 2 points along with a FG to tie, so may as well try to get a couple of 1st downs and put the game away.

 

If it was 3 mins or under the yes run the ball playing clock. 7 mins, not so much

[WideNine]

17 minutes ago, hjnick said:

IF we had a big battering ram and an offensive line that could get us 3-4 yards when the JETS are flooding ppl up to the line, then I'd say ok.

 

BUT with our offense, we are at an advantage at that time to throw the ball.  The LB's will be coming in and will leave gaps for players to run into.  WE JUST HAVE TO CATCH THE DAMN BALL!!!

 

Don't take the foot off the accelerator.

 

I will agree that our OL lacks some identity and battering ram ability..

 

We have a smattering of finesse blockers and slow-footed maulers, so consistency executing our offensive playbook is lacking.

 

For this offense I think they eventually have to look for a solid anchor and mauler at center, and then from the guards out they need players who excel at pass pro and pulling.

 

Right now we have an excellent finesse center, a mauler at LG who cannot line up blocks in pass pro, and a RT who is also struggling in pass pro sets.

 

Bates was coming on at RT and hopefully Dawkins can regain his form at LT at some point.

 

 

 

[JohnNord]

19 hours ago, jahbonas said:

I was shocked when a reporter asked Dorsey about his play calling in the series near the 7 minutes left in the game mark and up 11

In that series we ran it on 1st down with incomplete passes on 2nd and 3rd down saving a critical minute for the Jets

Reporter basically asked didnt he consider running the ball 3x there to run clock and force the Jets into using some timeouts - his response was not a thought at all  - he wanted to keep the offense balanced

We cant have an OC living in a bubble not differentiating between play calling in the first quarter from calling plays in a 4th qtr with a lead  - we will get burned by this

Thats because he was trying to sustain the drive and run more time off the clock.  Given how the Bills running attack is, I’m fairly certain there’s a better chance the Bills pick up the first down with 1 run and 2 versus passes as opposed to 3 runs.  
 

To his credit Dorsey has dialed up some good play pass called late in the game that should’ve killed the clock - instead they were dropped by Diggs (MIN) and Knox (NYJ)

 

44 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

On our second to last drive he dialed up a bootleg pass on 1st down. I would have preferred a WR screen pass 

Same but wasn’t the ball dropped by Singletary?  Not a hard catch to make

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, WideNine said:

 

Folks keep saying the Bills inability to run the ball, but I am not sure what folks expect from a run game.. these days - 10+ yards chunks?

 

This is the point that I keep reminding myself about, a point that I think that many fans miss.   The simple fact is that the things we learned about how the game worked even ten years ago, let alone 20 or 30 years ago, have changed.   The strategies and tactics are so sophisticated and evolving so fast that there are very few hard and fast rules about what works and what doesn't work.  

 

The Bills are fourth in the league in yards per attempt rushing, and yet we tend to think their rushing attack is anemic.   Well, sure, the numbers are inflated because of Allen, but guess what?  Most of the teams with good yards per attempt have rushing QBs.   It's just in the nature of the game.  Devin Singletary has 4.4 yards per attempt, which is fine.  We tend to think that the Bills aren't a good run stuffing defense, but the Bills are fourth in the league in yards allowed rushing.  The point is, the old-fashioned pound the ball rushing offenses don't exist any more, and the old-fashioned run-out-the-clock-strictly-running-the-ball drives don't happen any more.   We like to think that that's what good teams do, but the fact is that in the modern NFL, if the defense knows you're running, you aren't getting ten yards on three plays.  Sure, it happens once in a while, but not often enough to make it the right approach to killing the clock.  

 

This season, a lot of teams are playing really good defense.  It's hard to move the ball, and it's hard to score.  Offenses need excellent execution, play after play, using the full playbook, to put together 50-yard drives.  And/or they need to be able recognize mistakes by the defense and take advantage of them, but defenses are making fewer and fewer mistakes.   It's about play design, play calling, and execution.  

 

I keep reminding myself that it may seem simple, but it isn't.  

[US Egg]

19 hours ago, Malazan said:

These posts should require a link to the interview. This poster lied about his statement. 

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/ken-dorsey-i-m-excited-about-the-direction-of-this-offense

 

The question is about 38 seconds into the interview. 

Often when listening/reading media blurbs, they’re interpreted to fit ones perceptions, then spun accordingly.

[WideNine]

3 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Thats because he was trying to sustain the drive and run more time off the clock.  Given how the Bills running attack is, I’m fairly certain there’s a better chance the Bills pick up the first down with 1 run and 2 versus passes as opposed to 3 runs.  
 

To his credit Dorsey has dialed up some good play pass called late in the game that should’ve killed the clock - instead they were dropped by Diggs (MIN) and Knox (NYJ)

 

Same but wasn’t the ball dropped by Singletary?  Not a hard catch to make

 

 

The pass to Knox happened at the 1:12 mark, I am less picky when there is more time on the clock.

 

And I won't argue whether the pass play was there, it was...

 

Consistency with our pass pro, and execution catching the ball have made those plays more of a gamble than they should be.

 

 

 

 

[WideNine]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This is the point that I keep reminding myself about, a point that I think that many fans miss.   The simple fact is that the things we learned about how the game worked even ten years ago, let alone 20 or 30 years ago, have changed.   The strategies and tactics are so sophisticated and evolving so fast that there are very few hard and fast rules about what works and what doesn't work.  

 

The Bills are fourth in the league in yards per attempt rushing, and yet we tend to think their rushing attack is anemic.   Well, sure, the numbers are inflated because of Allen, but guess what?  Most of the teams with good yards per attempt have rushing QBs.   It's just in the nature of the game.  Devin Singletary has 4.4 yards per attempt, which is fine.  We tend to think that the Bills aren't a good run stuffing defense, but the Bills are fourth in the league in yards allowed rushing.  The point is, the old-fashioned pound the ball rushing offenses don't exist any more, and the old-fashioned run-out-the-clock-strictly-running-the-ball drives don't happen any more.   We like to think that that's what good teams do, but the fact is that in the modern NFL, if the defense knows you're running, you aren't getting ten yards on three plays.  Sure, it happens once in a while, but not often enough to make it the right approach to killing the clock.  

 

This season, a lot of teams are playing really good defense.  It's hard to move the ball, and it's hard to score.  Offenses need excellent execution, play after play, using the full playbook, to put together 50-yard drives.  And/or they need to be able recognize mistakes by the defense and take advantage of them, but defenses are making fewer and fewer mistakes.   It's about play design, play calling, and execution.  

 

I keep reminding myself that it may seem simple, but it isn't.  

 

I will settle for balanced offense when up late in games, but three and outs passing out of the spread is not that nor is having around 10 carries between your RBs.

 

Accommodating the elements you are playing in on that particular day is important too. 

 

I still would contend that killing the clock at the 1:12 mark in a game where you have a 2 score lead is not the right strategy regardless of how much the game has evolved.

 

Everything else you said I agree with emphatically.

 

And folks are right, if the lay up to Knox worked it is likely no one would have 2nd guessed it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Shaw66]

15 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

I will settle for balanced offense when up late in games, but three and outs passing out of the spread is not that nor is having around 10 carries between your RBs.

 

Accommodating the elements you are playing in on that particular day is important too. 

 

I still would contend that killing the clock at the 1:12 mark in a game where you have a 2 score lead is not the right strategy regardless of how much the game has evolved.

 

Everything else you said I agree with emphatically.

 

And folks are right, if the lay up to Knox worked it is likely no one would have 2nd guessed it.

 

 

 

 

 

I've already forgotten - did the Bills actually kill the clock at 1:12?!??  I'm sure I was screaming at the TV if they did.    I agree with you on that.  

 

I think the thing about Knox and the call, the important thing, is that good teams actually execute that play, make the throw, make the catch, and also stay in bounds.   Or, at least that's what we like to think good teams do.  The reality is that the good teams, the iconic teams, even, fail to execute some of the time.   The problem is that as a fan, I think we tend to remember the positive execution by the Chiefs or the former Pats and we tend to remember the failed executions by the Bills, the Stevie drops in the end zone in overtime.  

 

If you think about how you remember the Patriots from all those years, I think about how they made plays down the stretch.  But the truth is, every year the Pats lost some games, in upsets, and the defense failed to make stops, or Brady failed on fourth and 14 or something.  We just don't remember those failures. 

 

I don't know what the Bills overall stats are on late-in-the-game-must-have third down plays, but to be a really good team, your success ratio needs to be going up as you go into the playoffs.  That's what wins games - not killing the clock against the Jets in December, but killing the clock against the Chiefs in January, or making the stop.  The next few weeks will show how tough the Bills really are. 

[Toyo321]

4 hours ago, sunshynman said:

In this game when Knox went in motion to lining up for the hand-off! And it was successful! Jeesh!

That is really not a trick play its a wildcat play.

[sunshynman]

7 minutes ago, Toyo321 said:

That is really not a trick play its a wildcat play.

At that point in the game on 4 and 1 it was a trick play!

[Malazan]

1 hour ago, I am the egg man said:

Often when listening/reading media blurbs, they’re interpreted to fit ones perceptions, then spun accordingly.

 

This one goes the extra mile and blatantly lies. 

[blacklabel]

20 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

7 minutes is a long time  from game end to be managing the clock with runs

 

"Alrighty, we're up by 11 with seven minutes to go, time to shut this offense down and hang on for the win! I want HB dive in every GD play from here on out!"

[Patrick Duffy]

4 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

 

"Alrighty, we're up by 11 with seven minutes to go, time to shut this offense down and hang on for the win! I want HB dive in every GD play from here on out!"

Lol, exactly.... 7 mins and Jets had either 2 or all TO's. You would do then a favor going 3 and out just running unless the RB gets loose for a good gain. That isn't likely though if in obvious situation showing run. Then they have 5 mins and still all TO's left.

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

20 hours ago, mikemac2001 said:

You don’t want to just go in a run run run mode and allow them to just get the ball back. I thought his play calling was fine people are just upset at the knox drop play but that’s ballgame if he caught it 

That specific play call was excellent and timed perfectly. 
 

wasn’t a great throw, Dropson did what he does and Of course Moseley was all over it anyway, so execution had to be high

[Shaw66]

14 minutes ago, Patrick Duffy said:

Lol, exactly.... 7 mins and Jets had either 2 or all TO's. You would do then a favor going 3 and out just running unless the RB gets loose for a good gain. That isn't likely though if in obvious situation showing run. Then they have 5 mins and still all TO's left.

 

 

First, let me say that I agree with you.  During the game, I wanted them to run it, but I now think that's the wrong move.   

 

However, you're analysis is faulty, because doesn't look at the probabilities of the Jets winning under the two scenarios.  It's why game strategies have changed so much.   Run two plays and let the clock run, and Jets are left with five and a half minutes, all their timeouts and down two scores.   Throw incomplete twice and the Jets have seven minutes and all their time outs.   That may look like it doesn't matter much, because we've seen teams get two scores in five minutes lots of time.  But in fact, the probability of winning having run the clock is much better - that minute and a half is important.   And you also have to calculate the probability of getting the first down by running versus passing.   That's what analytics is about.   They have the data, they know the answers to all that math, and they know the answers when they adjust for how good both teams offenses and defenses are.  

[Dr.Sack]

2 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Thats because he was trying to sustain the drive and run more time off the clock.  Given how the Bills running attack is, I’m fairly certain there’s a better chance the Bills pick up the first down with 1 run and 2 versus passes as opposed to 3 runs.  
 

To his credit Dorsey has dialed up some good play pass called late in the game that should’ve killed the clock - instead they were dropped by Diggs (MIN) and Knox (NYJ)

 

Same but wasn’t the ball dropped by Singletary?  Not a hard catch to make

If memory serves me correct that ball went to Knox along the sideline. 

[WideNine]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've already forgotten - did the Bills actually kill the clock at 1:12?!??  I'm sure I was screaming at the TV if they did.    I agree with you on that.  

 

I think the thing about Knox and the call, the important thing, is that good teams actually execute that play, make the throw, make the catch, and also stay in bounds.   Or, at least that's what we like to think good teams do.  The reality is that the good teams, the iconic teams, even, fail to execute some of the time.   The problem is that as a fan, I think we tend to remember the positive execution by the Chiefs or the former Pats and we tend to remember the failed executions by the Bills, the Stevie drops in the end zone in overtime.  

 

If you think about how you remember the Patriots from all those years, I think about how they made plays down the stretch.  But the truth is, every year the Pats lost some games, in upsets, and the defense failed to make stops, or Brady failed on fourth and 14 or something.  We just don't remember those failures. 

 

I don't know what the Bills overall stats are on late-in-the-game-must-have third down plays, but to be a really good team, your success ratio needs to be going up as you go into the playoffs.  That's what wins games - not killing the clock against the Jets in December, but killing the clock against the Chiefs in January, or making the stop.  The next few weeks will show how tough the Bills really are. 

 

Thanks for the, "God hates me" Stevie Johnson memory 😅

 

My company had just been purchased by another based out of Pittsburgh back then. All I wanted was a win to shut those clowns up for a while, especially since so many knew I was a Bills fan.

 

We have been REALLY good closing out the 1st half of games if teams give us any time on the clock.

 

Jury is still out on how well we do imposing our will at the end of games.

 

We have pulled out some close wins so that is trending in the right direction from earlier in the season where folks could only talk about how we could not win the tight ones.