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In Gabe We Trust!


folz
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10 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Lumping him in with 32 other teams receivers when Gabe Davis has, at worst, the second best QB in the NFL throwing to him..........in a pass crazy offense...........that's where your argument ceases to illustrate perspective.

 

The Bills passing offense is Diggs and Davis and little else.........and he simply hasn't seized the opportunity.    The bulk stats give the impression that he's been very good but those numbers should be GREAT given the opportunity he's been given.   50% completion and nearly 20% outright drops aren't even mediocre numbers........they are terrible and threatening for the worst in the league for a receiver who is receiving any volume of targets.

 

It's not his fault that too much was expected of him after he had so clearly proven to be inconsistent in his two prior seasons as well..........but they have what they have and really need him to step up his game despite having to face decent CB's now.    Teams that win SB's have more reliable WR2's than that.    It's a commonality.  That doesn't mean they can't defy that with a ham-handed WR2..........no rookie OC has won a SB since the 1980's either and that doesn't mean Dorsey can't.   But it's a handicap, nonetheless.

 

 

the efficiency is an issue, sure.... but honestly run down through the teams in your head and toss out the names you'd take over him. I'm curious how long the list is. i already gave mine upstream 

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11 hours ago, folz said:

Not sure if this deserved it's own topic, but wasn't sure where else to put it...

 

I've seen a number of posters the past couple of weeks really down on Gabe Davis, saying he's not a good #2 WR, we should have brought in a FA boundary receiver, the Bills were dumb to count on Davis stepping up, etc.

 

I just want to bring a little perspective...

 

1. Gabe started out the year with a big 88 yard, 1 TD game against the Rams, but injured his ankle and had to sit out week 2 at Tennessee. 

2. Then the team lost Crowder and Kumerow to IR. So, despite the ankle not being healed, Gabe gutted out weeks 3 and 4 against Miami and Baltimore, respectively...because the team was desperate. He obviously did not have good games on the bum ankle.

3. He then bounced back with big games against Pitt and KC (245 yards and 3 TDs)...then the BYE week hit.

4. After the Bye week came the dud second half in GB and the two losses (to NY and Minn), where Josh and the entire offense looked off (not just Gabe).

5. And finally the Cleveland game and Snowmaggedon...not perfect, but a step back in the right direction for the entire offense.

 

It has been such a start-and-stop, weird season for Gabe (with the injury and where the bye fell) and then the offensive woes, which isn't all on Gabe (is it Josh's arm or head, Dorsey's play calling, teams catching up to our offense? etc.). Yes, Gabe has had some drops this year (5 to be exact), but Josh hasn't lost faith in him, nor have I. Deebo Samuel has 7 drops on a similar number of targets as Gabe. Amari Cooper, Ja'Mar Chase, DK Metcalf, and Courtland Sutton all have 6 drops each (granted, on 20 or so more targets than Gabe). 24 wide receivers have at least 4 drops this year. And how many of Gabe's drops were when he was playing on a bad ankle (a couple at least---I know he had a couple of big drops the last couple of weeks as well, though and he's got to clean that up...but it happens, even to the best receivers in the league---even Diggs had a big drop in the Vikings game). 

 

Also, people talk about Diggs being double covered as if that means everyone else has a one-on-one, but there have been numerous games this year where defenses have doubled both Diggs and Davis (because they weren't as worried about our run game or the slot as much). Gabe isn't always seeing single coverage. Teams know he is a weapon.

 

And as to him not being a good #2 receiver, let's look at some stats:

 

If you take away the two games where he was obviously playing injured, then Gabe is averaging 80.3 yards and .71 TDs per game. If he continued that average over the balance of the season, he would end up with 1,174 yards and 10 TDs (having missed one game and playing hurt in two others). That sounds like damn good #2 receiver numbers to me. In fact, if compared to WR production last season, that would have put him 10th in total yards and tied for 6th in total TDs by WRs. And even if you include the two games he played injured in for the pro-rated averages (that would then be 68 yards and .55 TDs/game this season), he would still be in line for 1,088 yards and 9 TDs this season. Only 15 WRs had more than 1,088 yards last year. Only 15 WRs had 9 or more TDs last season (only 8 WRs had more than 9 TDs).

 

To drive the point home, currently (this season), having sat out one game and played two games severely hampered, Gabe is still 19th in receiving yards (by WRs) and is one of only 13 WRs with 5 or more TDs. Considering there are 32 teams, shouldn't there be 32 #1 WRs, right? Yet, for what we feel is a subpar season so far for Gabe, he is performing like a mid-tier #1 receiver in the stat column. And yet some are saying that he isn't even good enough to be a #2?

 

It seems that some people are either expecting elite #1 stats from their #2 wide receiver or they are just upset at the offense's recent woes and are looking for scapegoats.

 

Anyhow, just here to say don't lose faith in Gabe. I think he'll be huge down the stretch of the season.

 

Go Bills!

 

 

He's maybe the best #4 in football, but as a #2 he's terrible. Sorry. He just isn't good enough.

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52 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I like AIyuk a lot.  He honestly is a lot like Gabe.  

 

Usually a good #2 is a good blocker, either a deep threat or a big body.  They aren't the best route runners (if they were, they'd probably be a #1).  

 

 

Sure but you are comparing apples and oranges...........the Bills are a pass first offense with a great QB and the Niners are a power running team with Jimmy G.

 

This is why people like myself and @ScottLaw were presuming the Bills were going to operate more under center and with traditional play action this year...........they didn't have the receiving personnel to run a lot of spread without it turning into Josh Allen being the leading rusher.   None of us wanted to have to see Josh Allen run for 800-1,000 yards........but here we are.

 

Maybe they evolve more that way as the season progresses but Gabe Davis just isn't a reliable enough receiver to be a high target guy in a spread attack.   Which is what they need if they want to keep playing Daboll-ball.

 

 

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Davis is more of a #3.  Suspect hands, can make big plays, but overall inconsistent.   We need to get another WR in the draft or FA.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:


the frustration with him is he’s got size, speed, footwork along the boundary, can separate, great at scramble drill, blocks well… it’s just the inconsistent hands. little like knox. if these guys were just making the routine plays, this bills team is unstoppable. 

 

Knox is way more consistent now than he previously was, it's that his targets are down.  Davis could improve, hopefully does, but now seems like a #3.

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13 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

Davis is more of a #3.  Suspect hands, can make big plays, but overall inconsistent.   We need to get another WR in the draft or FA.  

 

 

 

Knox is way more consistent now than he previously was, it's that his targets are down.  Davis could improve, hopefully does, but now seems like a #3.


when he drops passes I call him a #2 all right 

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13 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

Gabe Davis runs 3 routes apparently. If you know the situation you can sit on his route like Peterson did twice in the Vikes game. Does that sound like a solid #2 guy you can count on? Or just a guy that can get open deep which is exactly who they thought he was coming out of college. Bills need another option and McKenzie ain't it. He's just a gadget guy. They need a legit slot guy like what Beasley was. Crowder even when he played didn't show up like that. Bills missing 1 more piece to this puzzle 🧩

He had Peterson beat more than once in that game. Josh threw a terrible pass. Some people will believe anything. If this was true, that's not on Gabe. That's on the coaching staff. See below.

Hint: It's not true.

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11 minutes ago, Dopey said:

He had Peterson beat more than once in that game. Josh threw a terrible pass. Some people will believe anything. If this was true, that's not on Gabe. That's on the coaching staff. See below.

Hint: It's not true.

His exact scouting report out of college was that he cannot run the full route tree he's just a deep ball guy. What has he shown in 3 years to disprove that? The coaches will only ask you to do things you can do. I tend to believe a potential future hall of famer over you guys on the message boards.

 

Future hall of famer: "he only runs 3 routes, I can sit on it and pick off the throw."

 

Future Hall of Famer has 2 int's against him.

 

Message board fanbois: "Nahhh he's full of it"

Edited by KDIGGZ
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14 hours ago, folz said:

Not sure if this deserved it's own topic, but wasn't sure where else to put it...

 

I've seen a number of posters the past couple of weeks really down on Gabe Davis, saying he's not a good #2 WR, we should have brought in a FA boundary receiver, the Bills were dumb to count on Davis stepping up, etc.

 

I just want to bring a little perspective...

 

1. Gabe started out the year with a big 88 yard, 1 TD game against the Rams, but injured his ankle and had to sit out week 2 at Tennessee. 

2. Then the team lost Crowder and Kumerow to IR. So, despite the ankle not being healed, Gabe gutted out weeks 3 and 4 against Miami and Baltimore, respectively...because the team was desperate. He obviously did not have good games on the bum ankle.

3. He then bounced back with big games against Pitt and KC (245 yards and 3 TDs)...then the BYE week hit.

4. After the Bye week came the dud second half in GB and the two losses (to NY and Minn), where Josh and the entire offense looked off (not just Gabe).

5. And finally the Cleveland game and Snowmaggedon...not perfect, but a step back in the right direction for the entire offense.

 

It has been such a start-and-stop, weird season for Gabe (with the injury and where the bye fell) and then the offensive woes, which isn't all on Gabe (is it Josh's arm or head, Dorsey's play calling, teams catching up to our offense? etc.). Yes, Gabe has had some drops this year (5 to be exact), but Josh hasn't lost faith in him, nor have I. Deebo Samuel has 7 drops on a similar number of targets as Gabe. Amari Cooper, Ja'Mar Chase, DK Metcalf, and Courtland Sutton all have 6 drops each (granted, on 20 or so more targets than Gabe). 24 wide receivers have at least 4 drops this year. And how many of Gabe's drops were when he was playing on a bad ankle (a couple at least---I know he had a couple of big drops the last couple of weeks as well, though and he's got to clean that up...but it happens, even to the best receivers in the league---even Diggs had a big drop in the Vikings game). 

 

Also, people talk about Diggs being double covered as if that means everyone else has a one-on-one, but there have been numerous games this year where defenses have doubled both Diggs and Davis (because they weren't as worried about our run game or the slot as much). Gabe isn't always seeing single coverage. Teams know he is a weapon.

 

And as to him not being a good #2 receiver, let's look at some stats:

 

If you take away the two games where he was obviously playing injured, then Gabe is averaging 80.3 yards and .71 TDs per game. If he continued that average over the balance of the season, he would end up with 1,174 yards and 10 TDs (having missed one game and playing hurt in two others). That sounds like damn good #2 receiver numbers to me. In fact, if compared to WR production last season, that would have put him 10th in total yards and tied for 6th in total TDs by WRs. And even if you include the two games he played injured in for the pro-rated averages (that would then be 68 yards and .55 TDs/game this season), he would still be in line for 1,088 yards and 9 TDs this season. Only 15 WRs had more than 1,088 yards last year. Only 15 WRs had 9 or more TDs last season (only 8 WRs had more than 9 TDs).

 

To drive the point home, currently (this season), having sat out one game and played two games severely hampered, Gabe is still 19th in receiving yards (by WRs) and is one of only 13 WRs with 5 or more TDs. Considering there are 32 teams, shouldn't there be 32 #1 WRs, right? Yet, for what we feel is a subpar season so far for Gabe, he is performing like a mid-tier #1 receiver in the stat column. And yet some are saying that he isn't even good enough to be a #2?

 

It seems that some people are either expecting elite #1 stats from their #2 wide receiver or they are just upset at the offense's recent woes and are looking for scapegoats.

 

Anyhow, just here to say don't lose faith in Gabe. I think he'll be huge down the stretch of the season.

 

Go Bills!

 

 

 

Im not ready to write him off or say he can't be a legit #2 to Diggs.  I came into the season with sky high optimism for Davis, even felt it was possible he could lead the team in TD's and possibly yardage thanks to his big play ability and softer coverage playing opposite Diggs.

 

But, I have to admit, while you have valid points above, he has not risen to the occasion.  He is I believe 3rd in the NFL in drops, has a career catch rate of 54%, and he isn't getting consistent separation.  I forget what DB it was, I think it was Patterson after Vikes game, but they said he basically runs three routes and that makes it easier to cover.  

 

I think the biggest issue is Davis hasn't evolved as a route runner and getting separation as much as we thought he would.  With teams now keying on him and having plenty of tape on him, it seems easier to take him out of games as the season has worn on.  Even when he makes catches, a lot of them are him coming back to the ball draped in coverage.  

 

So I remain cautiously optimistic on Davis, but I am concerned about his ability to gain separation and his catch rate right now.  

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14 minutes ago, Dopey said:

He had Peterson beat more than once in that game. Josh threw a terrible pass. Some people will believe anything. If this was true, that's not on Gabe. That's on the coaching staff. See below.

Hint: It's not true.

 

He was money on hitches in the browns game.  Is that one of the 3? lol

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Im not ready to write him off or say he can't be a legit #2 to Diggs.  I came into the season with sky high optimism for Davis, even felt it was possible he could lead the team in TD's and possibly yardage thanks to his big play ability and softer coverage playing opposite Diggs.

 

But, I have to admit, while you have valid points above, he has not risen to the occasion.  He is I believe 3rd in the NFL in drops, has a career catch rate of 54%, and he isn't getting consistent separation.  I forget what DB it was, I think it was Patterson after Vikes game, but they said he basically runs three routes and that makes it easier to cover.  

 

I think the biggest issue is Davis hasn't evolved as a route runner and getting separation as much as we thought he would.  With teams now keying on him and having plenty of tape on him, it seems easier to take him out of games as the season has worn on.  Even when he makes catches, a lot of them are him coming back to the ball draped in coverage.  

 

So I remain cautiously optimistic on Davis, but I am concerned about his ability to gain separation and his catch rate right now.  

 

Playing through a bum ankle most of the season is always going to make jumping out of cuts etc more difficult.  

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3 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

He was money on hitches in the browns game.  Is that one of the 3? lol

 

Playing through a bum ankle most of the season is always going to make jumping out of cuts etc more difficult.  

 

I get that, but his bum ankle was weeks ago, and it has nothing to do with his career catch rate being a lowly 54% or him being 3rd in the NFL in drops.  

 

I am still high on Davis and optimistic on him overall, and there is no doubt this offense needs him.  I am just saying I am concerned by the lack of separation lately on his routes and low catch rate and drops.  

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2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I get that, but his bum ankle was weeks ago, and it has nothing to do with his career catch rate being a lowly 54% or him being 3rd in the NFL in drops.  

 

I am still high on Davis and optimistic on him overall, and there is no doubt this offense needs him.  I am just saying I am concerned by the lack of separation lately on his routes and low catch rate and drops.  

 

I think it impacts his route running.  And even when he ran a TD for 98 yards it was still clearly bothering him.  

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4 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I think it impacts his route running.  And even when he ran a TD for 98 yards it was still clearly bothering him.  

 

But why do you think it still bothers him?  I dont recall him being limited or on the injury report.  I don't think he gets to lean on this excuse given that was many weeks ago at this point and it was minor.  

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Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

But why do you think it still bothers him?  I dont recall him being limited or on the injury report.  I don't think he gets to lean on this excuse given that was many weeks ago at this point and it was minor.  

 

it's speculative, but definitely was more of an issue around the time it occurred.  It was major enough that he missed a game, but likely minor enough that he practices.  

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Just now, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

it's speculative, but definitely was more of an issue around the time it occurred.  It was major enough that he missed a game, but likely minor enough that he practices.  

 

Totally agree it definitely impacted him back then, but I am just saying I don't think its been a thing for him in several weeks now.  But I don't have any insight on that other than he has been full go every since with no injury designation I recall seeing.  

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4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

But why do you think it still bothers him?  I dont recall him being limited or on the injury report.  I don't think he gets to lean on this excuse given that was many weeks ago at this point and it was minor.  

My assumption is that these injuries last a long time. We don't know what the injury actually was. Remember when Robert Woods played over half of a season with a torn groin, when Hogan played with a torn ligament in his wrist (his last season in Buffalo), and when Jerry Hughes played with torn ligament in his own wrist? All had surgery after the season but were OK enough to play in pain throughout it. We didn't know about the severity of the injuries until after the season That's basically what you're seeing here. He's definitely been limping at times.  

Edited by dave mcbride
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1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

My assumption is that these injuries last a long time. We don't know what the injury actually was. Remember when Robert Woods played over half of a season with a torn groin, when Hogan played with a torn ligament in his wrist (his last season in Buffalo), and when Jerry Hughes played with torn ligament in his own wrist? All had surgery after the season but were OK enough to play in pain throughout it. That's basically what you're seeing here. He's definitely been limping at times. 

 

Certainly hope you guys are correct and its still limiting him, which would be better than him being healthy and still having some of these up and down struggles.  

 

Like I said, still high on him overall, just would like to see him get better separation and have better focus on his catches.  Its just too many drops, and its hurt us and killed drives during this slump the offense has been in and out of the past 4 weeks.  

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41 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Certainly hope you guys are correct and its still limiting him, which would be better than him being healthy and still having some of these up and down struggles.  

 

Like I said, still high on him overall, just would like to see him get better separation and have better focus on his catches.  Its just too many drops, and its hurt us and killed drives during this slump the offense has been in and out of the past 4 weeks.  

 

Yeah, this is where I am with Davis.  I can see persistent ankle injuries as hindering his moves and keeping him from getting open. 

 

But when he's targeted, and the ball is catchable, he needs to catch it.

 

I also have the belief he's making some route running mistakes.  JT O'Sullivan pointed out one on his QB school piece of the Vikes game.  We don't know who saw it incorrectly on the Sauce Gardiner INT vs the NYJ - of course Allen took responsibility, I tend to give Davis the benefit of the doubt on that one though.  I know I noted at least 3 others where the route combo looked weird to me and someone commented that they thought Davis should have been running a different route.

 

There have been a couple other plays where I thought if he ran his route differently, he would either get a DPI or prevent a pick.

 

IDK, maybe he's getting doped up to deal with the ankle and that affects his mentals and his reflexes a bit?

 

 

Edited by Beck Water
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