Bills defense had 12 men on the field for Dalvin Cook red zone stop in OT

[Livinginthepast]

This whole game was poorly officiated from the start. It started with the  booth review that didn't overturn Motor's non fumble and just went from there. Does it surprise me that 12 men are on the field and they missed it? absolutely not. I don't think the refs are bias for or against the Bills but they are incompetent  game in and game out. In addition, what is a dubious penalty that gets called in one part of the game (like the DPI on the Bills in the 4th) is not even flagged even when it is flagrant (like in overtime on the 2nd last play Knox drop).  No consistency in game or game to game.

[BADOLBILZ]

13 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

This whole game was poorly officiated from the start. It started with the  booth review that didn't overturn Motor's non fumble and just went from there. Does it surprise me that 12 men are on the field and they missed it? absolutely not. I don't think the refs are bias for or against the Bills but they are incompetent  game in and game out. In addition, what is a dubious penalty that gets called in one part of the game (like the DPI on the Bills in the 4th) is not even flagged even when it is flagrant (like in overtime on the 2nd last play Knox drop).  No consistency in game or game to game.

 

Motor "appeared" to be down upon further review but there was no way to tell for sure.   Refs handled that by the book.

[DrPJax]

7 hours ago, Beast said:

Just further shows how unprepared the defensive coaches were yesterday.

As I have said in other posts regarding another Mcd historical loss, this seems systematic of the “ process” having not solved some basic communication errors over the Mcd tenure.  Every year we see a spectacular  situational football error, this time the fumble, not drilling into Josh we had a tie with the ability to be patient ( receivers were open underneath or he could have run) in OT, and now this with 12 men on the field. Other teams don’t seem to experience so many losses with blown leads or by committing huge gaffs during the game ; eg yesterdays multiple gaffs , hail Murray, 13 seconds etc., inability to run the ball ,calling all passes on 2 nd and 2.   It just keeps mounting. 

 

These are embarrassing I would think if you are a professional organization ; you don’t think of the Pats doing this type of thing during their period with talented rosters. All teams have rebuilding times but these memorable mistakes are going on during a period with the most talent in 20 years and supposedly during our SB “ window”.  I don’t have the answers , and I’m paid like I don’t! Lol !  But there are guys being paid who should have the ability to have learned and fixed these issues.  We always get Monday morning qb answers From this staff  after each crazy loss; “ we obviously want that back “ etc.  Is that still acceptable 6 years in ; shouldn’t they have faced most situations you might run into as they ascended the coaching tree? 

 

I really like Mcd and his culture , Beane as well.  Frazier has great stat D’S , but many times they don’t play to their statistical dominant level at critical times. Dorsey , looked good early, but may be having issues adjusting with no 2 nd half tds since KC !  I hope they can correct course , learn as they keep telling us from these situations.  But I’m starting to see cracks in how this team is situationally prepared and performing that just keep recurring.
The big question is do you believe this staff can win when it counts, in the SB , where errors are magnified ? The injury bug has played a large role , but Mcd is losing to staffs with much less experience and that’s concerning. They can turn this around; they should have the talent to do so , but they have run out of excuses for memorable mistakes.  I think this is a critical time for this year, and maybe for some or a majority of this staff. I am losing faith with each bungle that they have the coaching talent to win a SB and this leagues longevity is result dependent. Last half of the season may be a fair judge about this staff. 
 

 

[Freddie's Dead]

LOL, they're bitching about 12 men and Gabe's catch, but the Edmunds INT that was overturned?  No BFD.  ***** the NFL, their refs are bull####.

[John from Riverside]

8 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Yep and they also got away with an incomplete pass on that Davis sideline catch late that should have been reviewed.

 

So for all the people that continue to blame injuries and other nonsense on this teams current struggles time to give it up.

Explain how injuries get explained away because we got some calls in a game

[BobbyC81]

8 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

 Here is the photo. Definitely 12!

Hey, whatever it takes.  “If you aren’t cheating, you’re not trying.”

[What a Tuel]

9 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

We say why don't we get the rub of the green from the refs. We did yesterday, and still managed to mess it up.

 

It was a make up call for saying there was insufficient evidence to overturn the ruled fumble by singletary as we are looking at a photo of him holding the ball with his elbow down.

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Motor "appeared" to be down upon further review but there was no way to tell for sure.   Refs handled that by the book.

 

What do you mean no way to tell? You could see his hand on the ball pressed against him and his elbow down. They literally pieced together 6 different angles showing this. What would be a sure way to tell?

[DapperCam]

I wonder if they did it on purpose to get away with one. If you get caught it’s like a 1 yard penalty.

[Process]

7 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:

It was Gabe not adjusting his route, again. 

 

Double post, saftey took the high route, he was supposed to settle down under (would have been WIDE OPEN) instead he kept running deep instead of settling down.  [Per post game press conference]

Just curious, who said that post game?

[Nextmanup]

9 hours ago, Logic said:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/11/14/bills-defense-had-12-men-on-the-field-for-ot-stop-on-dalvin-cook/

 

The Bills defense came up with a big stop of Vikings running back Dalvin Cook on a first-and-goal from the 2-yard-line in overtime of Sunday’s game and they did it with a little extra assistance.

Vikings head coach Kevin O’Connell said on Sunday that he thought Buffalo’s defense had 12 men on the field when they dumped Cook for a three-yard loss, but wanted to confirm it on tape. The tape showed that O’Connell was correct.
 

“I know it’s moving pretty fast out there sometimes,” O’Connell said, via Kevin Seifert of ESPN.com.

Instead of having first-and-goal on the 1-yard-line, the Vikings played on from the 5-yard-line. Kirk Cousins was sacked and threw an incompletion before the Vikings kicked a go-ahead field goal. The Bills drove into scoring position, but cornerback Patrick Peterson sealed the win with an interception in the end zone.

Sunday’s officiating crew had two big mistakes late in the game. In addition to missing the 12 men, they called a pass to Bills wide receiver Gabe Davis in the final minute of regulation a completion when he did not control the ball through contact with the ground. The replay assistant did not stop the game to review the play, which NFL senior vice president of officiating Walt Anderson said they should have done.

Coaches can challenge missed 12 men on the field calls outside of the final two minutes of games or in overtime. All replays are initiated from the booth in those instances. Patriots head coach Bill Belichick said Monday that he thinks coaches should always be able to challenge calls and situations like the ones in Buffalo on Sunday will likely draw others to that view.

 

I like the guy who gave your post a thumb's down!  LOL.

 

Your post here is like a little news story; a statement of fact about 2 really bad calls. 

 

And he gives it the thumbs down!  What does that even mean?  

 

😂

55 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

LOL, they're bitching about 12 men and Gabe's catch, but the Edmunds INT that was overturned?  No BFD.  ***** the NFL, their refs are bull####.

What things like this show is that the game is still FAR from perfectly officiated.

There are mistakes all over the place in every game.  This is because it is impossible to have a "perfectly" officiated game.

 

It's also why the entire review/challenge/IR system should be thrown in the garbage and go back to 1970s rules.

 

Make the calls live, on the field, with human eyes at the speed of the game, and everyone gets to live with the consequences good or bad.

 

It will more or less even out for everyone with the passage of time, avoid so much bull####, and make the game so much quicker.

 

 

 

 

[Process]

8 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

I wonder if they did it on purpose to get away with one. If you get caught it’s like a 1 yard penalty.

Huh? You would also give them another play and chance at a TD. It was definitely not on purpose lol.

[BADOLBILZ]

20 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

It was a make up call for saying there was insufficient evidence to overturn the ruled fumble by singletary as we are looking at a photo of him holding the ball with his elbow down.

 

What do you mean no way to tell? You could see his hand on the ball pressed against him and his elbow down. They literally pieced together 6 different angles showing this. What would be a sure way to tell?

 

 

Yes everyone saw the same replays........it was inconclusive as to whether the ball had moved prior to him being down.    It looked like he was down and the ball was stripped out afterward but it wasn't CONCLUSIVE.   How many years does this system have to be in place for some of you ref blamers to understand how it works?   The refs are taught to let fumbles play out because review can usually overturn a wrong fumble call........but if they incorrectly blow the ball dead it can negate not only a turnover but a significant gain of yardage or even a TD.       

[What a Tuel]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Yes everyone saw the same replays........it was inconclusive as to whether the ball had moved prior to him being down.    It looked like he was down and the ball was stripped out afterward but it wasn't CONCLUSIVE.   How many years does this system have to be in place for some of you ref blamers to understand how it works?   The refs are taught to let fumbles play out because review can usually overturn a wrong fumble call........but if they incorrectly blow the ball dead it can negate not only a turnover but a significant gain of yardage or even a TD.       

 

I know full well how it works, thanks. However the ball did not move before his knee hit the ground. One would think you'd need that to affirm that he lost possession. Not "we don't see the ball moving, so stick with the original call." No, the fact that they did not see the ball move is proof enough that the ball did not come out before his knee hit the ground. Remember they have the later frames too for when the ball DOES move.

[Livinginthepast]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Motor "appeared" to be down upon further review but there was no way to tell for sure.   Refs handled that by the book.

He had the ball in his grasp when his elbow touches the ground. In fact its simple physics in action. hitting the ground the way he did caused the fumble, which IS the text book rule in the NFL, the ground cant cause a fumble. The refs blew the call on the field and on the replay. 

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, What a Tuel said:

 

I know full well how it works, thanks.  One would think you'd need that to affirm that he lost possession. 

 

 

No, you clearly don't know how replay works.   They weren't reviewing to "affirm that he lost possession".    The video replay needs to prove that he DID NOT lose possession........because the call on the field was that he did.   

3 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

He had the ball in his grasp when his elbow touches the ground. In fact its simple physics in action. hitting the ground the way he did caused the fumble, which IS the text book rule in the NFL, the ground cant cause a fumble. The refs blew the call on the field and on the replay. 

 

 

See above.   The video needed to provide conclusive evidence that the ball wasn't moving........it failed to do so,  unfortunately.    Did it seem likely that he had possession?  Sure, but that's not how replay works.   

[Livinginthepast]

37 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No, you clearly don't know how replay works.   They weren't reviewing to "affirm that he lost possession".    The video replay needs to prove that he DID NOT lose possession........because the call on the field was that he did.   

 

 

See above.   The video needed to provide conclusive evidence that the ball wasn't moving........it failed to do so,  unfortunately.    Did it seem likely that he had possession?  Sure, but that's not how replay works.   

There wasnt conclusive evidence that the ball WAS moving before he impacts the ground, that's what irritates me. yet they called it a fumble on the field and after. 

In the end it was unfortunate that it was a momentum killing fumble but the Bills needed to get past it and they didn't.

[HoofHearted]

19 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:

It was Gabe not adjusting his route, again. 

 

Double post, saftey took the high route, he was supposed to settle down under (would have been WIDE OPEN) instead he kept running deep instead of settling down.  [Per post game press conference]

That's not what Josh said in the presser. He said it was a double post, safety took the first post, but Josh felt he was in a position where he (the safety) could stop if he threw it over the top to Gabe so he tried to drive it.

[What a Tuel]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No, you clearly don't know how replay works.   They weren't reviewing to "affirm that he lost possession".    The video replay needs to prove that he DID NOT lose possession........because the call on the field was that he did.   

 

 

See above.   The video needed to provide conclusive evidence that the ball wasn't moving........it failed to do so,  unfortunately.    Did it seem likely that he had possession?  Sure, but that's not how replay works.   

 

No. Just no. 

 

The video evidence conclusively proved the ball was not moving and in fact affirmed that he had NOT lost possession. 

 

The idea that even though the video shows his hand around the ball and his elbow on the ground it doesn't "prove the ball wasn't moving" is absurd. It in and of itself is proof.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Livinginthepast said:

There wasnt conclusive evidence that the ball WAS moving before he impacts the ground, that's what irritates me. yet they called it a fumble on the field and after. 

In the end it was unfortunate that it was a momentum killing fumble but the Bills needed to get past it and they didn't.

 

 

I understand that.   We all feel that it wasn't a fumble.   But the replay angles weren't conclusive and they didn't need to have evidence that the ball WAS moving.    They ruled that it was on the field and it was treated to the letter of the law and that's all you can ask for.    @What a Tuel can't grasp that this is how replay works.   If the situation were reversed and they overturned a Minnesota fumble without conclusive evidence people would be complaining about THAT.   

 

The best thing you can do is not dedicate any energy toward criticizing officiating.   That's a sucker's game.   The NFL wants you to do that though........perceived injustice strengthens the bonds between fans and the teams they root for.    Pro Wrestling business 101.    And like most things the NFL does........the less they do about an issue the more money they make.   So don't bother expecting them to perfect officiating.   No drama is bad for business.  

[What a Tuel]

49 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I understand that.   We all feel that it wasn't a fumble.   But the replay angles weren't conclusive and they didn't need to have evidence that the ball WAS moving.    They ruled that it was on the field and it was treated to the letter of the law and that's all you can ask for.    @What a Tuel can't grasp that this is how replay works.   If the situation were reversed and they overturned a Minnesota fumble without conclusive evidence people would be complaining about THAT.   

 

The best thing you can do is not dedicate any energy toward criticizing officiating.   That's a sucker's game.   The NFL wants you to do that though........perceived injustice strengthens the bonds between fans and the teams they root for.    Pro Wrestling business 101.    And like most things the NFL does........the less they do about an issue the more money they make.   So don't bother expecting them to perfect officiating.   No drama is bad for business.  

 

You say this but then go on bring up an irrelevant scenario of bias if the situation were reversed?

 

The video evidence proved the ball was not moving and he had control. No fumble should ever be overturned then because there is no way to know "for sure" the ball wasn't moving.

 

There are countless scenarios of Refs overturning calls like this.

 

Edit, here is a couple famous ones:

 

Show me irrefutable evidence that Edelman did not touch the ball.

 

Overturned:

 

Show me irrefutable evidence that the ball moved out of Jesse James control?

 

Overturned

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by What a Tuel

[ArtVandalay]

20 hours ago, Process said:

Just curious, who said that post game?

Allen

[ArtVandalay]

9 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

That's not what Josh said in the presser. He said it was a double post, safety took the first post, but Josh felt he was in a position where he (the safety) could stop if he threw it over the top to Gabe so he tried to drive it.

No, that's what he said, go back and listen, he said Smith took the over and was in position for the throw over the top.

 

Gabe supposed to read the saftey and adjust, this is how our EP offense works with receivers reading coverage and adjusting routes. Smith chose to cover deep, Gabe needs to settle. Allen the tipped his hat to Peterson saying he's a savvy vet good play aka he read the coverage and the play and stayed under neath instead of following Gabe because he had Smith over him. 

[HoofHearted]

14 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

No, that's what he said, go back and listen, he said Smith took the over and was in position for the throw over the top.

 

Gabe supposed to read the saftey and adjust, this is how our EP offense works with receivers reading coverage and adjusting routes. Smith chose to cover deep, Gabe needs to settle. Allen the tipped his hat to Peterson saying he's a savvy vet good play aka he read the coverage and the play and stayed under neath instead of following Gabe because he had Smith over him. 

You completely misinterpreted what Allen said. Bills ran Double Posts vs Quarters which should be a quarters beater since the Safety will go with the Post by #2 and the corner is then responsible for #1 man to man. They got the exact look they wanted from the defense for the called concept. Gabe should win on the Post every time because the corner is playing outside leverage on #1 in quarters so as soon as you take away the Safety there is no longer help inside. Smith was not over Gabe - Josh said he felt that he WAS in a position to make a play if he threw the post ball over the top to Gabe and so he tried forced it (I believe he used the word “drive”) into the window but threw it behind.

 

Based on the concept and the coverage there should have been no route conversions. Go listen to it again.

 

EDIT: I think you got hung up on “took the over” - the “over” being referenced is the Post being run by, I believe, Morris. Smith isn’t “covering deep” he’s playing the Post by #2

Edited November 16, 2022 by HoofHearted

[ArtVandalay]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

You completely misinterpreted what Allen said. Bills ran Double Posts vs Quarters which should be a quarters beater since the Safety will go with the Post by #2 and the corner is then responsible for #1 man to man. They got the exact look they wanted from the defense for the called concept. Gabe should win on the Post every time because the corner is playing outside leverage on #1 in quarters so as soon as you take away the Safety there is no longer help inside. Smith was not over Gabe - Josh said he felt that he WAS in a position to make a play if he threw the post ball over the top to Gabe and so he tried forced it (I believe he used the word “drive”) into the window but threw it behind.

 

Based on the concept and the coverage there should have been no route conversions. Go listen to it again.

 

EDIT: I think you got hung up on “took the over” - the “over” being referenced is the Post being run by, I believe, Morris. Smith isn’t “covering deep” he’s playing the Post by #2

I'm not at all, sorry but go back listen to Josh and watch the play. 

 

Josh isn't going to come out and throw Gabe blatantly under the bus and say he ran the wrong route, which seems what you want him to do to admit that. 

 

You even say yourself Peterson has outside leverage, which perfectly sets up Gabe to settle middle of the field vacated by the saftey. 

 

They didn't run double post, again your not listening to what he said or watching the play. He said double post-ish type concept,  it was an over route and post route, Morris on the over, Gabe on the post.

 

Saftey has the deep ball covered,  Josh says it, he knows he does, he took the over route (Morris) and says he was in position to stop if he threw it over the top (come off the over route to Gabes post), he's not trying to go up top to Gabe.

 

That's why he tips his hat to Peterson for reading the coverage as a savy vet knowing saftey had it covered over the top, and stayed undernearth.

 

When the saftey took the over and vacated the field Gabe was supposed to dig and settle underneath -- to EXACTLY where the ball was thrown. 

 

Are you really claiming Josh missed a throw by 10 yards when he was fully behind it? Come on that's silly.

 

Gabe did the a similar thing last week running the wrong route vs the Jets and gave Sauce a free pick. 5 of Allens INTs have gone Gabes way it's been an issue all year. 

 

 

[MPT]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:15 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Motor "appeared" to be down upon further review but there was no way to tell for sure.   Refs handled that by the book.

 

There wasn't one angle that showed both Devin's elbow and the ball but the broadcast showed 4 simultaneous angles of that play and said "this is what they're looking at." You could see Singletary's elbow down in one angle and the ball still in his control in another angle at the same exact moment. There was no excuse for that call to stand. 

[HoofHearted]

11 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:

I'm not at all, sorry but go back listen to Josh and watch the play. 

 

Josh isn't going to come out and throw Gabe blatantly under the bus and say he ran the wrong route, which seems what you want him to do to admit that. 

 

You even say yourself Peterson has outside leverage, which perfectly sets up Gabe to settle middle of the field vacated by the saftey. 

 

They didn't run double post, again your not listening to what he said or watching the play. He said double post-ish type concept,  it was an over route and post route, Morris on the over, Gabe on the post.

 

Saftey has the deep ball covered,  Josh says it, he knows he does, he took the over route (Morris) and says he was in position to stop if he threw it over the top (come off the over route to Gabes post), he's not trying to go up top to Gabe.

 

That's why he tips his hat to Peterson for reading the coverage as a savy vet knowing saftey had it covered over the top, and stayed undernearth.

 

When the saftey took the over and vacated the field Gabe was supposed to dig and settle underneath -- to EXACTLY where the ball was thrown. 

 

Are you really claiming Josh missed a throw by 10 yards when he was fully behind it? Come on that's silly.

 

Gabe did the a similar thing last week running the wrong route vs the Jets and gave Sauce a free pick. 5 of Allens INTs have gone Gabes way it's been an issue all year. 

 

 

 

You can disagree all you want, but I'm telling you what happened. Gabe settling where Josh threw it makes no sense based on the coverage they got. It's MAN TO MAN after 8 yards with a corner outside leverage! So why tf would Gabe settle and let the corner play catch-up instead of continuing to run AWAY from the corner on the post. C'mon man it's not that hard. Nothing is ever Allen's fault around here lol.

 

EDIT: 

Same concept here - Double Post - Coverage is 0 so the throw goes to #2 as the receiver presses his toes and crosses face but watch the throw - low and outside when Allen is trying drive the throw. 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by HoofHearted