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Can we talk about Tremaine Edmunds?


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1 hour ago, nosejob said:

Frazier did indeed say that Tremaine needs to make more splash plays. That statement was brought up to him during an interview. He says that he just needs to trust his instincts and what he sees more.

 

Well not trying to be a hater, but I've seen enough to where I can't envision them even entertaining giving him 15 plus per year. I'm not thrilled with giving him almost 13 this yr. I get a sense about guys when I hear them speak and I'm sorry, I just don't think his brain matches his body. Maybe I'll be surprised.....

 

He did. It was in his mini camp / OTA presser on 7th June for those who want to find it. He generally said Tremaine is still growing and still learning. He was then asked something like "what more does Tremaine need to do?" and his answer was "keep doing what he is doing but with more of those game changing splash plays." Slightly paraphrasing. So it wasn't said entirely as a negative, it was a balanced perspective. 

 

The Beane, McDermott and Frazier comments on Tremaine have been notably circumspect this offseason with the exception of Beane's combine interview. They are very much in wait and see mode. I think it is 50/50 on whether 2022 is his last season with the Bills. 

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13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He did. It was in his mini camp presser for those who want to find it. He generally said Tremaine is still growing and still learning. He was then asked something like "what more does Tremaine need to do?" and his answer was "keep doing what he is doing but with more of those game changing splash plays." Slightly paraphrasing. So it wasn't said entirely as a negative, it was a balanced perspective. 

 

The Beane, McDermott and Frazier comments on Tremaine have been notably circumspect this offseason with the exception of Beane's combine interview. They are very much in wait and see mode. I think it is 50/50 on whether 2022 is his last season with the Bills. 

So they can use another 1st round pick on a defensive player.😈

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41 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He did. It was in his mini camp / OTA presser on 7th June for those who want to find it. He generally said Tremaine is still growing and still learning. He was then asked something like "what more does Tremaine need to do?" and his answer was "keep doing what he is doing but with more of those game changing splash plays." Slightly paraphrasing. So it wasn't said entirely as a negative, it was a balanced perspective. 

 

The Beane, McDermott and Frazier comments on Tremaine have been notably circumspect this offseason with the exception of Beane's combine interview. They are very much in wait and see mode. I think it is 50/50 on whether 2022 is his last season with the Bills. 

50/50 I agree, but in the K.C playoff game it looked like it was his first time in an NFL game. I'm not expecting much if any improvement in YEAR 5.

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On 6/29/2022 at 7:22 AM, delirious said:

 

I've made my thoughts known on Edmunds plenty of times. Even though I come across as a Edmunds hater (I just dislike all the mental gymnastics done for him lol), I'd much rather the Bills re-sign him and big Ed (preferably after big Ed) than keep Poyer. 

 

The Bills have some of the best db coaching in the league.


I think it will be tougher to find someone as good as or better than Poyer over the next 3 seasons. Edmunds is replacement level IMO. Bobby Wagner would have been a huge upgrade and a top 100 pick has a good chance of being as good or better. 
 

It’s possible to sign all 3 (Poyer, Edmunds, Oliver) as they’re already making decent money.

 

Despite Josh’s raise in 2023, Bills will be able to create cap space once again. Around 60mil can be cleared by restructures/extensions alone. They hopefully won’t have much dead cap while they currently have over 16mil. Those factors, plus the cap going up will make the cap situation much better than most Bills fans are fearing. 
 

Unfortunately, we have to hear how money is tight for another year from fans. 

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17 minutes ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:


I think it will be tougher to find someone as good as or better than Poyer over the next 3 seasons. Edmunds is replacement level IMO. Bobby Wagner would have been a huge upgrade and a top 100 pick has a good chance of being as good or better. 
 

It’s possible to sign all 3 (Poyer, Edmunds, Oliver) as they’re already making decent money.

 

Despite Josh’s raise in 2023, Bills will be able to create cap space once again. Around 60mil can be cleared by restructures/extensions alone. They hopefully won’t have much dead cap while they currently have over 16mil. Those factors, plus the cap going up will make the cap situation much better than most Bills fans are fearing. 
 

Unfortunately, we have to hear how money is tight for another year from fans. 

He’s a MLB on a team that’s success is dictated by the QB and offense… he needs an elite, game changing type of season to justify a hefty contract extension, otherwise I don’t see why McBeane can’t find a 3rd/4th round pick to replace him next season.

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20 minutes ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:


I think it will be tougher to find someone as good as or better than Poyer over the next 3 seasons. Edmunds is replacement level IMO. Bobby Wagner would have been a huge upgrade and a top 100 pick has a good chance of being as good or better. 
 

It’s possible to sign all 3 (Poyer, Edmunds, Oliver) as they’re already making decent money.

 

Despite Josh’s raise in 2023, Bills will be able to create cap space once again. Around 60mil can be cleared by restructures/extensions alone. They hopefully won’t have much dead cap while they currently have over 16mil. Those factors, plus the cap going up will make the cap situation much better than most Bills fans are fearing. 
 

Unfortunately, we have to hear how money is tight for another year from fans. 

And with long extensions for Oliver, Knox, and Edmunds the cap hits could be relatively low the first couple years. Yes it’s possible to keep everyone and just push cap back.

 

Josh being young allows us to push his cap back with restructures and extensions for a while. 
 

This is where Pegula comes into play. Will he want to keep spending tens of millions of his own money every year to try and win a Super Bowl?

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Oy vey.  I'll step out of this discussion.  I didn't realize the Bills had a mediocre player at MLB who doesn't impact games and can be replaced by a 3rd or 4th rounder easily with no drop-off.

 

I'll see myself out.

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9 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They moved Mahomes also but he made plays out of the pocket and running. That’s probably what frustrated the coaches the most. 

And you’ve argued against the Bills spending cap on players that get home? You just gave reason why that cap was spent on Miller, Phillips, and others. So you’re just arguing everything just to argue. 

 

 

 

 

This is clearly hard for you to comprehend..........but some of us actually think that the game shouldn't even have been played in Arrowhead in the first place.

 

That the result of the divisional game wasn't an indicator that the defense wasn't good enough to win a Super Bowl with.........or even beat the Chiefs on most days(as they had done in Arrowhead earlier in the season).    

 

They ran into a red hot offense that day.   First time in NFL history two teams that had scored 40 the week before met the following week in the playoffs.  

 

Regular season losses to Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, New England and Indianapolis............games where they simply couldn't execute offensively due to a league worst pass blocking OL(125 combined sacks and pressures was the most) and the lack of YAC talent(last in the NFL in that category) cost them what should have been a cruise to home field advantage.

 

Lest we forget........the Bills defense was ranked #1 in the NFL.  

 

It was the offense that lost 3 games in a 5 game stretch where they scored just 6, 15 and 10 points before they started running Josh Allen 10x per game to cover up for those weaknesses.

 

If you think the KC game was impacted by a lack of Tre White........then imagine that game with Josh Allen on the sidelines because you had to run him 8-12 times per game all season to cover for some league-worst weaknesses on offense.

 

I've never criticized the Von Miller signing..........they swapped him out for Hughes and Addison.  

 

Where I diverge from Beane's thinking is that the OL just needed a patch job with a 34 year old OG with chronic shoulder issues and some league minimum type reserves who share the same issues that hurt the Bills OL last year(Quessenberry lead the NFL in sacks allowed!)................but the interior DL needed 3 more guys getting NFL starter money in addition to the high pedigree Ed Oliver.  

 

Or that losing half of their #2 boundary WR combo,  not replacing that production,  and instead further fortifying the defense with those DT's and a first round CB was suspect. 

 

 

 

Edited by BADOLBILZ
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8 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

To think the Bill's didn't miss Tre who is arguable the top 3 to 5 CBs in the league is ridiculous. To say maybe he would have helped is equally absurd. 

 

I didn't see any indication that the Bills defense was tired or gassed. It was two great QBs making plays and being special.

 

Having A healthy Tre may have been the missing piece to win the game. We obviously will never know. I can say with certainly he would have helped and the Bills missed him. 

 

 

It literally is not.

 

The Bills are a heavy zone defense team...........individual CB play is much less of a factor than if they had been a primarily man coverage defense.

 

Like I said.........there were other issues on defense that undermined the CB play........and as evidenced the year prior.........without pass rush Tre White was abused and looked ridiculous against Tyreek Hill.............that 2020 defense played worse in the AFCCG loss than the one in the 2021 divisional game did.     The fatigue unraveled them in 2021..........they were just helpless to stop Mahomes for most of the game in 2020.

 

If Tremaine Edmunds wasn't a puppet on string in coverage against Mahomes THAT would have made a difference in that game.    As evidenced by the impact that Logan Wilson had in coverage the next week for the Bengals.   Night and day difference in instincts and execution between Wilson and Edmunds in those games.

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13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

This is clearly hard for you to comprehend..........but some of us actually think that the game shouldn't even have been played in Arrowhead in the first place.

 

That the result of the divisional game wasn't an indicator that the defense wasn't good enough to win a Super Bowl with.........or even beat the Chiefs on most days(as they had done in Arrowhead earlier in the season).    

 

They ran into a red hot offense that day.   First time in NFL history two teams that had scored 40 the week before met the following week in the playoffs.  

 

Regular season losses to Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, New England and Indianapolis............games where they simply couldn't execute offensively due to a league worst pass blocking OL(125 combined sacks and pressures was the most) and the lack of YAC talent(last in the NFL in that category) cost them what should have been a cruise to home field advantage.

 

Lest we forget........the Bills defense was ranked #1 in the NFL.  

 

It was the offense that lost 3 games in a 5 game stretch where they scored just 6, 15 and 10 points before they started running Josh Allen 10x per game to cover up for those weaknesses.

 

If you think the KC game was impacted by a lack of Tre White........then imagine that game with Josh Allen on the sidelines because you had to run him 8-12 times per game all season to cover for some league-worst weaknesses on offense.

 

I've never criticized the Von Miller signing..........they swapped him out for Hughes and Addison.  

 

Where I diverge from Beane's thinking is that the OL just needed a patch job with a 34 year old OG with chronic shoulder issues and some league minimum type reserves who share the same issues that hurt the Bills OL last year(Quessenberry lead the NFL in sacks allowed!)................but the interior DL needed 3 more guys getting NFL starter money in addition to the high pedigree Ed Oliver.  

 

Or that losing half of their #2 boundary WR combo,  not replacing that production,  and instead further fortifying the defense with those DT's and a first round CB was suspect. 

 

 

 

Their love of a quality 8 man rotation on the defensive line results in them patching holes at other positions…. It’s what they “believe in” and are fine with sacrificing offense in that process… hope it doesn’t blow up in their face… McDermott might have to develop a “growth mindset” and move on from the 8 man rotation if it does.

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34 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

This is clearly hard for you to comprehend..........but some of us actually think that the game shouldn't even have been played in Arrowhead in the first place.

 

That the result of the divisional game wasn't an indicator that the defense wasn't good enough to win a Super Bowl with.........or even beat the Chiefs on most days(as they had done in Arrowhead earlier in the season).    

 

They ran into a red hot offense that day.   First time in NFL history two teams that had scored 40 the week before met the following week in the playoffs.  

 

Regular season losses to Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, New England and Indianapolis............games where they simply couldn't execute offensively due to a league worst pass blocking OL(125 combined sacks and pressures was the most) and the lack of YAC talent(last in the NFL in that category) cost them what should have been a cruise to home field advantage.

 

Lest we forget........the Bills defense was ranked #1 in the NFL.  

 

It was the offense that lost 3 games in a 5 game stretch where they scored just 6, 15 and 10 points before they started running Josh Allen 10x per game to cover up for those weaknesses.

 

If you think the KC game was impacted by a lack of Tre White........then imagine that game with Josh Allen on the sidelines because you had to run him 8-12 times per game all season to cover for some league-worst weaknesses on offense.

 

I've never criticized the Von Miller signing..........they swapped him out for Hughes and Addison.  

 

Where I diverge from Beane's thinking is that the OL just needed a patch job with a 34 year old OG with chronic shoulder issues and some league minimum type reserves who share the same issues that hurt the Bills OL last year(Quessenberry lead the NFL in sacks allowed!)................but the interior DL needed 3 more guys getting NFL starter money in addition to the high pedigree Ed Oliver.  

 

Or that losing half of their #2 boundary WR combo,  not replacing that production,  and instead further fortifying the defense with those DT's and a first round CB was suspect. 

 

 

 

The OL had injuries and Covid issues most the year. Once healthy and with Bates the OL improved a great deal. 
 

Saffold is an upgrade, end of story. 
 

On defense they rotate 7-8. They lost 2 DTs as well. They replaced them. 
 

They believe Gabriel Davis is ready to get 100+ targets. Sanders and Davis combined for 135 targets. Davis could easily be a 120 target WR next year. That’s where we’re heading. I think we’re likely to see a split of the remaining targets between Crowder, Knox, McKenzie, Shakir, RBs, and others.

 

When I say you don’t believe in Davis that’s what I mean. They think Davis is about to have a huge season. 
 

They didn’t need to spend on a WR because they feel they have the guy already. 
 

Let me add that the games you mentioned, Davis didn’t play much. When he did he was used as a blocker a lot. Sanders played over Davis because of seniority, not talent. The Jacksonville game Davis played 19 snaps, mostly to block. Sanders played almost every snap. Davis was frustrated with his usage last year according to Allen.

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26 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Their love of a quality 8 man rotation on the defensive line results in them patching holes at other positions…. It’s what they “believe in” and are fine with sacrificing offense in that process… hope it doesn’t blow up in their face… McDermott might have to develop a “growth mindset” and move on from the 8 man rotation if it does.

They didn’t really sacrifice. In terms of cap they could’ve signed almost any OG they wanted this offseason besides Scherff, Cappa, and Tomlinson. Saffold had the 4th highest cap hit n 2022 for UFA OGs. So what people are saying is Bean signed the wrong OG. Between Bates and Saffold they did spend on OG. So the argument is they spent poorly of your not satisfied with Saffold and Bates.

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12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The Bills defense gave up 36 points in regulation to the Chiefs in the divisional game loss........42  in OT.......with 2 extra possessions than the Bills due to some coin luck......without Tre White.

 

The prior year they gave up 38 to the Chiefs in the AFCCG with Tre White.

 

The facts of the situation don't support the idea that Tre White was "TRULY MISSED".

 

Could he have helped?   Maybe........but the issue was Mahomes was keeping drives alive with his feet.........that's not a CB problem......NO corner in the league can cover as long as was being required.

 

In the process of Mahomes keeping drive after drive alive due to the inability of the Bills pass rush to finish....... the defense got totally exhausted and the last 3 Chiefs scores were mostly due to defensive fatigue.

 

Good point.  This is why, despite meh results, Beane has been obsessive in addressing DL.   His priorities are absolutely in the right place.  

 

You can have a great secondary, which we have.. doesn't matter much against elite offenses if the DL can't finish.  

 

You can have good pass defense linebackers, which we have... doesn't matter much against elite offenses if the DL can't finish. 

 

The 2nd and 3rd level are great to have, and absolutely can be the difference in some games.. but at the end of the day, the game is decided by QB's and in the trenches.  

 

I expect our LB's and Secondary to look absolutely filthy this year, because this DL has elite potential.  The DT rotation, in both talent and depth, is one of the best in the NFL and if any of the young pass rushers make a jump... watch out.  

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24 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It literally is not.

 

The Bills are a heavy zone defense team...........individual CB play is much less of a factor than if they had been a primarily man coverage defense.

 

Like I said.........there were other issues on defense that undermined the CB play........and as evidenced the year prior.........without pass rush Tre White was abused and looked ridiculous against Tyreek Hill.............that 2020 defense played worse in the AFCCG loss than the one in the 2021 divisional game did.     The fatigue unraveled them in 2021..........they were just helpless to stop Mahomes for most of the game in 2020.

 

If Tremaine Edmunds wasn't a puppet on string in coverage against Mahomes THAT would have made a difference in that game.    As evidenced by the impact that Logan Wilson had in coverage the next week for the Bengals.   Night and day difference in instincts and execution between Wilson and Edmunds in those games.

Definitely agree with you on Wilson vs Edmunds. Where I took exception is with your Tre comment. Perhaps, I'm splitting hairs here? Now, I will say there's no way to say and prove the Bills would have won if a healthy Tre was available. Maybe that's your point? However, to say or imply that the Bills defense wouldn't have been better is undeniably incorrect. 

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2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

So they can use another 1st round pick on a defensive player.😈

 

I'm already mentally preparing myself for this.  

 

Part of me wants to extend Edmunds simply so we can draft someone for Josh in RD1.

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4 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Definitely agree with you on Wilson vs Edmunds. Where I took exception is with your Tre comment. Perhaps, I'm splitting hairs here? Now, I will say there's no way to say and prove the Bills would have won if a healthy Tre was available. Maybe that's your point? However, to say or imply that the Bills defense wouldn't have been better is undeniably incorrect. 

There’s a stat showing the top 3 CBs with most snaps to not allow a TD last year. Tre White and Dane Jackson were in the top 3.

 

Im just saying maybe the defensive scheme and Poyer/Hyde have played a role in Whites success. 

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21 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

There’s a stat showing the top 3 CBs with most snaps to not allow a TD last year. Tre White and Dane Jackson were in the top 3.

 

Im just saying maybe the defensive scheme and Poyer/Hyde have played a role in Whites success. 

Of course, Poyer and Hyde positively effect the play of the cornerbacks. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, eball said:

Oy vey.  I'll step out of this discussion.  I didn't realize the Bills had a mediocre player at MLB who doesn't impact games and can be replaced by a 3rd or 4th rounder easily with no drop-off.

 

I'll see myself out.

 

There may be a drop off.  Many of us are conceding that possibility if Edmunds, or Poyer while we're at it, walk after the season. 

 

Does the drop off hinder our ability to win a Super Bowl?  No. 

 

QB - Josh Allen

WR - Diggs/Davis

TE - Knox

OL - Dawkins

DL - Miller/Oliver/Rousseau

CB - White

 

Those guys are all foundational pieces towards winning Super Bowls.  Everyone else is a luxury.  Edmunds, Milano, Poyer, Hyde, Singletary, Johnson, Jones, Cook etc.. all good to great players... all luxuries.

 

If any of those guys have elite years, it helps... it doesn't mean we are winning a Super Bowl. 

 

If guys on the OL/DL step up, I don't see who can beat us.  

 

QB, Skill Positions and the Trenches.  Focus there.  Then.. if we can afford it.. if it makes sense.. pay guys like Poyer and Edmunds.  

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1 hour ago, SCBills said:

 

There may be a drop off.  Many of us are conceding that possibility if Edmunds, or Poyer while we're at it, walk after the season. 

 

Does the drop off hinder our ability to win a Super Bowl?  No. 

 

QB - Josh Allen

WR - Diggs/Davis

TE - Knox

OL - Dawkins

DL - Miller/Oliver/Rousseau

CB - White

 

Those guys are all foundational pieces towards winning Super Bowls.  Everyone else is a luxury.  Edmunds, Milano, Poyer, Hyde, Singletary, Johnson, Jones, Cook etc.. all good to great players... all luxuries.

 

If any of those guys have elite years, it helps... it doesn't mean we are winning a Super Bowl. 

 

If guys on the OL/DL step up, I don't see who can beat us.  

 

QB, Skill Positions and the Trenches.  Focus there.  Then.. if we can afford it.. if it makes sense.. pay guys like Poyer and Edmunds.  

 

Thank you for this.  It's the best breakdown and explanation I've read.  I understand your position.

 

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5 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

So they can use another 1st round pick on a defensive player.😈

I don't think this regime will ever burn another 1st round pick on a LB unless someone transformative falls in their lap. I can see Tremaine having a decent contract year but I wouldn't hold my breath for too many wow splash plays. Maybe Sean thought he could turn him into Keuckly which was never going to happen. I would let him walk and put all that money toward Poyer, Oliver and Knox. Bernard & Dodson can hold down the fort.

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