McKenzie Talks 13 seconds

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I like McKenzie too............I'd keep him on a cheap contract again and continue to use him as a gadget player...........but if you think he is going to put up 800 yards receiving for the next many years you should probably contact draft kings and put some coin down because nobody in their right mind thinks that.

 

We'll see......McKenzie made it pretty clear, in the podcast linked in the OP, that he feels he has shown he can play in the slot.  Ty Dunne kind of reinforced and encouraged that idea with McKenzie, that someone will give him an opportunity - and McKenzie alluded to taking a "pay cut" to come back to Buffalo.  Since he in fact got a pay raise - same signing bonus, $990k salary vs $825k salary - the implication is another team offered him more money and he chose to come back to Buffalo.  This might not be from love of the team and the city, but could reflect that the Bills at least gave him a guaranteed signing bonus and the other team might not have, or might have offered less.

 

Anyway, they seem to think that some NFL GM will be calling him with an offer, and by implication at least one did last season - when we know who it is and what they offer, we can discuss if they're in their right minds or not.

 

If by "nobody in their right mind thinks that", you mean the Bills FO, I think you're probably right.   Bringing him back when they hoped he could be the KR/PR as well as the "gadget guy" made a lot of sense.  I doubt McDermott wants to give him another chance at KR/PR - we will shop elsewhere for that role, because we don't want to be putting Micah Hyde back there on PR either.

 

I don't know where the "bad practice habits" stuff came from (and still haven't gotten an answer from you or another TBDian who said this - again, I'm not questioning what you said, just want to know where it came from), but his ball security is clearly not what the Bills need.   In addition to his regular season fumble/muff, he fumbled on the first KR in the KC game and it luckily went OOB or that would have been a disaster on the first play. And from stuff he said in the OP podcast, I see hints that he may be challenging to coach - he said "I'm just a little guy, I need to hold on to the ball however I can" (does that mean when his coaches try to tell him to hold onto the ball differently to avoid fumbles, he says "sure coach!" with his mouth and goes "LaLaLa" in his ears?).  @Shaw66 reported that he saw McKenzie body-catching practice balls before a game, while the other WR were catching with their hands, which is ridiculous for a 5 year veteran with pretentions to start in the NFL at WR.

 

Anyway, I'm guessing that McKenzie does get an offer from a team that is WR-poor and will offer him the chance to be the primary slot receiver, because of his speed and because of the good catches he put on film this season.  Then the question will be, will he make good, or will it go like his KR/PR experiment?

 

The Bills started to use McKenzie in more of a dual threat role, running him out of the backfield at least once in the last 4 games and 3x in each playoff game.  I would like to see them look for a more proven dual threat, either a RB in the draft or a vet FA.  And there are only so many roster spots and so much cap money.

[Shaw66]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

We'll see......McKenzie made it pretty clear, in the podcast linked in the OP, that he feels he has shown he can play in the slot.  Ty Dunne kind of reinforced and encouraged that idea with McKenzie, that someone will give him an opportunity - and McKenzie alluded to taking a "pay cut" to come back to Buffalo.  Since he in fact got a pay raise - same signing bonus, $990k salary vs $825k salary - the implication is another team offered him more money and he chose to come back to Buffalo.  This might not be from love of the team and the city, but could reflect that the Bills at least gave him a guaranteed signing bonus and the other team might not have, or might have offered less.

 

Anyway, they seem to think that some NFL GM will be calling him with an offer, and by implication at least one did last season - when we know who it is and what they offer, we can discuss if they're in their right minds or not.

 

If by "nobody in their right mind thinks that", you mean the Bills FO, I think you're probably right.   Bringing him back when they hoped he could be the KR/PR as well as the "gadget guy" made a lot of sense.  I doubt McDermott wants to give him another chance at KR/PR - we will shop elsewhere for that role, because we don't want to be putting Micah Hyde back there on PR either.

 

I don't know where the "bad practice habits" stuff came from (and still haven't gotten an answer from you or another TBDian who said this - again, I'm not questioning what you said, just want to know where it came from), but his ball security is clearly not what the Bills need.   In addition to his regular season fumble/muff, he fumbled on the first KR in the KC game and it luckily went OOB or that would have been a disaster on the first play. And from stuff he said in the OP podcast, I see hints that he may be challenging to coach - he said "I'm just a little guy, I need to hold on to the ball however I can" (does that mean when his coaches try to tell him to hold onto the ball differently to avoid fumbles, he says "sure coach!" with his mouth and goes "LaLaLa" in his ears?).  @Shaw66 reported that he saw McKenzie body-catching practice balls before a game, while the other WR were catching with their hands, which is ridiculous for a 5 year veteran with pretentions to start in the NFL at WR.

 

Anyway, I'm guessing that McKenzie does get an offer from a team that is WR-poor and will offer him the chance to be the primary slot receiver, because of his speed and because of the good catches he put on film this season.  Then the question will be, will he make good, or will it go like his KR/PR experiment?

 

The Bills started to use McKenzie in more of a dual threat role, running him out of the backfield at least once in the last 4 games and 3x in each playoff game.  I would like to see them look for a more proven dual threat, either a RB in the draft or a vet FA.  And there are only so many roster spots and so much cap money.

Not that the Bills need to be mimicking the Chiefs, but I think it's instructive to look at them.  They have Hardman and Pringle handling kickoffs and punts, and they also are have the third- and fourth-most receiving yards on the team.   So they had more touches by far, between them, than McKenzie, and they had one fumble.   

 

So, think about that from a roster point of view.  The Cithiefs have two primary receivers - Hill and Kelce, and then they have two general purpose speed guys.   They don't seem to me like either is about to blossom into a legitimate number one receiver.   They're just guys who are useful in the offense, finding openings when the defense gets too focused on Hill and Kelce, catching the ball consistently when the ball comes their way, handling the returning duties.   That's four guys handling receiving and returning.  

 

By contrast, the Bills have only one primary receiver - Diggs.  Everyone else is a support guy like Pringle and Hardman.  Beas, Knox, Sanders and Davis all contribute in the 600-yard range like Pringle and Hardman, AND the Bills have another role player, McKenzie, to handle the kick returns.  It's easy to see that if from no other point of view than roster efficiency, the Chiefs are better positioned.  It is, in fact, a huge advantage for one of your studs to be a tight end, but it's pretty unusual to have a guy like that.  

 

I reach three conclusions from this.   One is that Beasley is too limited.  As good as he is, when he's one of four receiving threats on the field, he just doesn't make the Bills as dangerous as the Chiefs are with their four.   He limits the offense.   A second is that McKenzie has to go.   He has the speed to be a dangerous complementary receiver like Pringle or Hardman, but only rarely has he shown the ability to be that guy, and not at all on a consistent basis.  If he were a reliable return man and something of a threat there, that would be plus, but he just isn't as reliable as is necessary.  Third, someone else has to emerge.   Either Knox has to take a step and become a legitimate 1000-yard tight end threat, or Davis has to take over as a full-time starter.  Imagine Diggs as Antonio Brown and Davis as Mike Evans.  

 

Bottom line, I don't think the Bills have the versatility that they need at the top end of their receiver roster.  

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You know, that untouched fumble in the Colts game was something a lot of coaches would bench a guy for

Some coaches would have cut him.   Belichick might have. 

 

 

 

 

[Comebackkid]

On 1/28/2022 at 9:48 AM, YoloinOhio said:

Ive listened to these pretty much every week and referenced in the thread where I don’t think he’s returning - he made a lot of comments all year about things he doesn’t like. Personally, I think it’s time he look at some other options if he has them. 

it makes u wonder if he's been misused and maybe wasted a bit.   his top end speed in the game was in between two of cheetas best runs.   As a player and you 

feel u have all talent and see what other players are doing in your spot, yet your spending most your time on the sidelines.   It has to be depressing.   Plus your getting older and you feel that clock ticking away.

19 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Not that the Bills need to be mimicking the Chiefs, but I think it's instructive to look at them.  They have Hardman and Pringle handling kickoffs and punts, and they also are have the third- and fourth-most receiving yards on the team.   So they had more touches by far, between them, than McKenzie, and they had one fumble.   

 

So, think about that from a roster point of view.  The Cithiefs have two primary receivers - Hill and Kelce, and then they have two general purpose speed guys.   They don't seem to me like either is about to blossom into a legitimate number one receiver.   They're just guys who are useful in the offense, finding openings when the defense gets too focused on Hill and Kelce, catching the ball consistently when the ball comes their way, handling the returning duties.   That's four guys handling receiving and returning.  

 

By contrast, the Bills have only one primary receiver - Diggs.  Everyone else is a support guy like Pringle and Hardman.  Beas, Knox, Sanders and Davis all contribute in the 600-yard range like Pringle and Hardman, AND the Bills have another role player, McKenzie, to handle the kick returns.  It's easy to see that if from no other point of view than roster efficiency, the Chiefs are better positioned.  It is, in fact, a huge advantage for one of your studs to be a tight end, but it's pretty unusual to have a guy like that.  

 

I reach three conclusions from this.   One is that Beasley is too limited.  As good as he is, when he's one of four receiving threats on the field, he just doesn't make the Bills as dangerous as the Chiefs are with their four.   He limits the offense.   A second is that McKenzie has to go.   He has the speed to be a dangerous complementary receiver like Pringle or Hardman, but only rarely has he shown the ability to be that guy, and not at all on a consistent basis.  If he were a reliable return man and something of a threat there, that would be plus, but he just isn't as reliable as is necessary.  Third, someone else has to emerge.   Either Knox has to take a step and become a legitimate 1000-yard tight end threat, or Davis has to take over as a full-time starter.  Imagine Diggs as Antonio Brown and Davis as Mike Evans.  

 

Bottom line, I don't think the Bills have the versatility that they need at the top end of their receiver roster.  

Some coaches would have cut him.   Belichick might have. 

 

 

 

 

How much do u think this is on the players...rather than coaches for not putting them in a position to be those players?

[The Jokeman]

On 1/28/2022 at 12:01 PM, YoloinOhio said:

The past 2 years at least, the Bills either didn’t tender him as an RFA or let him go find a deal as a UFA and he’s never found anything. I think Bill fans overvalue him a bit because he’s a fun personality. I think he’s a good depth guy and if he wants to come back again on a small deal that’s fine but I’m not handing decent money to him because he’s not consistent enough at the return game. Would rather draft someone to replace him cheap or sign someone in FA who can return more consistently. 

He was close to signing with the Bears last off-season but returned. I've always felt McKenzie was under appreciated as aWR yet this season it's obvious where he falls in the depth chart. I'd love him back but with Josh getting more money it's hard to keep everyone.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

He was close to signing with the Bears last off-season but returned. I've always felt McKenzie was under appreciated as aWR yet this season it's obvious where he falls in the depth chart. I'd love him back but with Josh getting more money it's hard to keep everyone.

 

Oh, is that who offered him?  Can you give any more details?   (also wondering how you know - again, not doubting, just asking for source)

 

Unless the Bears offered him a multi-year contract or more guaranteed $$, I can't blame him for thinking that perhaps he'd be better off here with a chance to compete at both KR/PR and for playing time.

 

[Steptide]

He's gonna go to the giants if he doesn't re sign here 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

31 minutes ago, Comebackkid said:

How much do u think this is on the players...rather than coaches for not putting them in a position to be those players?

 

That's a really good question, especially where a player like McKenzie is concerned.  When he was picked up by the Bills in 2018, I don't think he could run routes worth a damn, nor could he track the ball.  And he got the axe in Denver for being Mr Fumblemitts on KR/PR, and promptly repeated that act here such that we went out and signed Andre Roberts strictly to lock down the KR/PR thing.

 

I think the Bills kept him because they were hoping he could be coached up to be That Guy, and yet he hasn't quite gotten there.  Teams put the most effort into making sure their starters have all the resources they need, then on coaching up their own draft picks, obviously - those guys are an investment.  How much effort have they put into coaching up McKenzie?  My guess is he got a good bit of attention and resources as the KR/PR this off-season, and he seemed pretty "into" Chad Hall so I think he got some good attention there too.

 

Daboll has been quoted as saying "until a player feels you care about them, they aren't going to care about what you say".  I think McKenzie has been kind of on his own to develop himself as an athlete, all his life.  The same toughness and self-talk that makes a guy keep grinding in those circumstances, probably also make it harder for a guy to "buy in" and truly listen to what he's being told and make major changes.

 

10 minutes ago, Steptide said:

He's gonna go to the giants if he doesn't re sign here 

 

Who has been keeping injured Beasley on the field, and healthy McKenzie off it except in a limited role or when infection benched the starter?

 

I promise that the answer to that question would not be "McDermott"

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Comebackkid said:

 

How much do u think this is on the players...rather than coaches for not putting them in a position to be those players?

Well, I haven't been too outspoken here, because I think all things considered he did a good job, but I was quietly rooting for Daboll to get a head coaching position somewhere.  I never got really comfortable that he was the kind of master strategist you need as OC (and DC).   If I'm right about that, McDermott certainly sees it, too, and he will find himself someone who's more creative.   I had the feeling for the past two years that Daboll simply wasn't as good as the Bills needed in terms of finding (and creating) space in the defensive backfield and getting receivers to those spaces.  

 

Particularly as this season went along and it became increasingly career that Allen was mastering whatever they gave him, the Bills had a guy who could put the ball wherever the open receiver was.   Let's face it, the reason guys have these gaudy completion percentages is NOT because they're throwing into tight windows although the best QBs do that.   They complete all those passes because receivers are attacking open spaces, quarterbacks are identifying those openings and have the arm-strength and accuracy to get the ball there.   Just look at the TD passes to Davis against the Chiefs.  

 

Hapless and I talked a few days ago about why Kelce catches all those passes.   Mahomes finds him comfortably open all over the place.  Hapless said Kelce did it and Knox doesn't because Kelce is really smart and recognizes the openings.   The announcers say he runs a lot of option routes, and he makes good choices.   Well, okay, that may be true, but even if it is, he's running routes where one option or the other is going to be open, and he's picking it.  I don't see why that can't be true for Knox, too.   He's as mobile as Kelce - a good OC should be finding openings for Knox and teaching him to make the reads.   Knox could be a 1000-yard receiver.  

 

So, yes, I think some of the "problem" (I mean, how much of a problem is it?) is the creativeness of the coaches.   But, as I said, I think there's a personnel issue, as well.   Beasley isn't good as a free runner; McKenzie isn't good as a possession receiver.   Neither of them is kick and punt returner.   Both have been good in limited roles, but not broad roles.   Look again at Pringle and Hardiman.   Each is a reliable return man, each is a threat on the jet sweeps and other plays that attack the perimeter with speed, each is a downfield pass catcher.   When they're on the field, anything is possible.   When Beas and McKenzie are possible, they don't threaten with the same broad array of tools.  

 

I don't think passing schemes will make Beasley more valuable, and I don't have a lot confidence that McKenzie will deliver consistently.  

 

Sanders would be a better threat in Beasley's role, but I wonder if he'll be back.  I think Stevenson is too small, but he has some upside.  Knox, Davis.  There are talented guys to work with, and there'll be a new face or two next season.  As I said, I welcome the prospect that the next OC will be better at getting receivers into space, because if that happens, Allen will be amazing. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Shaw66

[Shaw66]

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That's a really good question, especially where a player like McKenzie is concerned.  When he was picked up by the Bills in 2018, I don't think he could run routes worth a damn, nor could he track the ball.  And he got the axe in Denver for being Mr Fumblemitts on KR/PR, and promptly repeated that act here such that we went out and signed Andre Roberts strictly to lock down the KR/PR thing.

 

I think the Bills kept him because they were hoping he could be coached up to be That Guy, and yet he hasn't quite gotten there.  Teams put the most effort into making sure their starters have all the resources they need, then on coaching up their own draft picks, obviously - those guys are an investment.  How much effort have they put into coaching up McKenzie?  My guess is he got a good bit of attention and resources as the KR/PR this off-season, and he seemed pretty "into" Chad Hall so I think he got some good attention there too.

 

Daboll has been quoted as saying "until a player feels you care about them, they aren't going to care about what you say".  I think McKenzie has been kind of on his own to develop himself as an athlete, all his life.  The same toughness and self-talk that makes a guy keep grinding in those circumstances, probably also make it harder for a guy to "buy in" and truly listen to what he's being told and make major changes.
 

You're almost psycho-analyzing the guy, and I'd guess you're doing a good job of it.  Most important is the bolded part.   He hasn't quite gotten there.   

 

You know, just like they say the most important thing for a QB is accuracy, the most important thing for a receiver is catching.  I watch Davis, and I want him on the field.   He can catch.   McKenzie never has inspired that confidence, and I think that unless that changes, he's always going to have trouble staying on the field at this level.   

 

Part of the problem is that we feel bad for the guys who just about get there but fall just short.  We love the idea of McKenzie, but he disappoints just enough to make him not the guy.  

 

I'll give you a different guy at a different position.   Harrison Phillips.   Gee, I wanted him to make it.   Good size, good attitude, but season after season he showed just enough to be almost there without being there.  It was disappointing.   Then, the second half of this season, suddenly be became more than a guy just occupying space on the d line while I was hoping someone else would make a play.   Maybe he just flashed for a few games and will regress next season, but I don't think so.  I think he actually became what he needs to be, and now he can be a regular contributor on the d line.   He seems to have taken advantage of the opportunities he's had.   McKenzie hasn't quite done the same thing. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Shaw66

[Bruffalo]

I don't really understand why McKenzie is always in McD's doghouse.  He's rarely gotten the opportunities, but when he does he's shined the last two seasons.  I don't really understand why this guy can't get snaps in the slot.

 

Yeah, he's not the return man we hoped he'd be (although when he has the ball he's electric), that doesn't he's not a useful piece of the offense. 

 

I'll be shocked if the Bills decide to retain Beasley, his contract and production just don't match up. McKenzie seems like a shoe in for his spot, but it looks like he knows he's not going to be on this team come August.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

42 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You know, just like they say the most important thing for a QB is accuracy, the most important thing for a receiver is catching.  I watch Davis, and I want him on the field.   He can catch.   McKenzie never has inspired that confidence, and I think that unless that changes, he's always going to have trouble staying on the field at this level.  

 

McKenzie sure looked like a guy who could catch in that NE game.  And in subsequent games, while he didn't make a lot of catches, the ones he made were pretty durn good.  He does have 3 drops on the season, but an overall catch % of 77% (which is biased up by having a lot of short passes, but he did catch more balls downfield this year).  What we don't know is: could he hold up to that load, week after week?

 

I think you're correct that the #1 thing for a WR is catching (and hanging on to the ball) but the #2 thing is getting open - maybe that's even #1.  As Josh Allen says "Get open, and Catch the Ball". 

 

I think the problem for McKenzie has been the "get open" part, and the crisp route running.  He's only just got to the point where he can do it.

 

I'm not ready to annoint Gabe Davis yet.  Were you at the Jets game?  Perhaps you have a different impression from being there - but he had 14 targets and 3 receptions that game.  He has 5 drops on the season (out of 63 targets) and 2 INTs on targets intended for him.  Overall he had a 55% catch % last season and 56% this season.

 

Now Sanders had a couple low catch % games, especially to start the season and in the NWE and JAX losses.  He had an overall catch % of 58% and 3 drops on 72 targets.  So it's not like Davis was way off some of the other guys. 

 

Just be open to the possibility that there might be a bit of recency bias in your Davis assessment. 

19 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

I don't really understand why McKenzie is always in McD's doghouse.  He's rarely gotten the opportunities, but when he does he's shined the last two seasons.  I don't really understand why this guy can't get snaps in the slot.

 

Why do you think that McKenzie doesn't get opportunities in the slot because he's in McDermott's doghouse, vs. because he's perceived by Hall and Daboll, based on what they see in practice, as a less capable route runner than Cole Beasley or Manny Sands who is especially less able to get open and run option routes against zone coverage?

[Bruffalo]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Why do you think that McKenzie doesn't get opportunities in the slot because he's in McDermott's doghouse, vs. because he's perceived by Hall and Daboll, based on what they see in practice, as a less capable route runner than Cole Beasley or Manny Sands who is especially less able to get open and run option routes against zone coverage?

 

I mean maybe that's true, I'm not trying to say that McKenzie is secretly as good as Tyreek Hill or something. I'll never know that though unless a coach comes out and says it. 

 

All I do know is the very few times he's been elevated to a starting slot receiver he's produced in a big way. 

[Shaw66]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

McKenzie sure looked like a guy who could catch in that NE game.  And in subsequent games, while he didn't make a lot of catches, the ones he made were pretty durn good.  He does have 3 drops on the season, but an overall catch % of 77% (which is biased up by having a lot of short passes, but he did catch more balls downfield this year).  What we don't know is: could he hold up to that load, week after week?

 

I think you're correct that the #1 thing for a WR is catching (and hanging on to the ball) but the #2 thing is getting open - maybe that's even #1.  As Josh Allen says "Get open, and Catch the Ball". 

 

I think the problem for McKenzie has been the "get open" part, and the crisp route running.  He's only just got to the point where he can do it.

 

I'm not ready to annoint Gabe Davis yet.  Were you at the Jets game?  Perhaps you have a different impression from being there - but he had 14 targets and 3 receptions that game.  He has 5 drops on the season (out of 63 targets) and 2 INTs on targets intended for him.  Overall he had a 55% catch % last season and 56% this season.

 

Now Sanders had a couple low catch % games, especially to start the season and in the NWE and JAX losses.  He had an overall catch % of 58% and 3 drops on 72 targets.  So it's not like Davis was way off some of the other guys. 

 

Just be open to the possibility that there might be a bit of recency bias in your Davis assessment. 

 

Yeah, I don't know that I'm anointing Davis to anything yet, and I agree about his drops.   But he's a serious hands catcher.  He had one on the sideline against the Chiefs last week, and he had two great catches like that in some comeback last season.   He's a serious catcher, drops or not.  

 

I don't think there are a lot of guys who get themselves open on their initial routes.   Diggs does, Beas does, but I think at best most teams have one guy who can get himself separation.   Most everyone else gets open on route design.   Sure, they have to run crisp routes, sharp cuts, all that, but mostly they're open because they have space to run to.  That's where I'll defend McKenzie.   I mean, maybe those guys from KC I named are somewhat better ball catchers than McKenzie, but they aren't faster, and they aren't any shiftier.  They're just getting open in schemes that BIenemy and Reid put together that create space while the defense is focusing on the Chiefs' stars.  I don't see any reason McKenzie shouldn't be running to open space like that and, again, I put that primarily on the coaches.  

 

The guy has elite speed, or at least that's what my eyes tell me when he turns the corner on sweeps.  I think he wasn't used properly by Daboll.  

 

As for his catching ability, kudos for you for finding the data.   And the data supports what I saw this season - he was a much more reliable ball catcher.  I do think, however, that the stats for him and Davis are the way they are because in general, Allen throws to McKenzie only when he's open, while Davis gets a higher percentage of tough chances.   At least that's how I remember it.   None of that is neither here nor there.   What I do think is important is that the Bills should get better production out of someone - they should have a second 1000-yard receiver.  

 

And I think that the Bills need a reliable kick and punt returner who also is a contributor on offense.   McKenzie wasn't reliable, but to his credit he was a contributor on offense.  

 

Finally, I think you suggested elsewhere, and it's another gripe I had about Daboll, is that he seemed to get away from things and then suddenly rediscover them.   It was true this season for both Davis and McKenzie.  

[Comebackkid]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, I haven't been too outspoken here, because I think all things considered he did a good job, but I was quietly rooting for Daboll to get a head coaching position somewhere.  I never got really comfortable that he was the kind of master strategist you need as OC (and DC).   If I'm right about that, McDermott certainly sees it, too, and he will find himself someone who's more creative.   I had the feeling for the past two years that Daboll simply wasn't as good as the Bills needed in terms of finding (and creating) space in the defensive backfield and getting receivers to those spaces.  

 

Particularly as this season went along and it became increasingly career that Allen was mastering whatever they gave him, the Bills had a guy who could put the ball wherever the open receiver was.   Let's face it, the reason guys have these gaudy completion percentages is NOT because they're throwing into tight windows although the best QBs do that.   They complete all those passes because receivers are attacking open spaces, quarterbacks are identifying those openings and have the arm-strength and accuracy to get the ball there.   Just look at the TD passes to Davis against the Chiefs.  

 

Hapless and I talked a few days ago about why Kelce catches all those passes.   Mahomes finds him comfortably open all over the place.  Hapless said Kelce did it and Knox doesn't because Kelce is really smart and recognizes the openings.   The announcers say he runs a lot of option routes, and he makes good choices.   Well, okay, that may be true, but even if it is, he's running routes where one option or the other is going to be open, and he's picking it.  I don't see why that can't be true for Knox, too.   He's as mobile as Kelce - a good OC should be finding openings for Knox and teaching him to make the reads.   Knox could be a 1000-yard receiver.  

 

So, yes, I think some of the "problem" (I mean, how much of a problem is it?) is the creativeness of the coaches.   But, as I said, I think there's a personnel issue, as well.   Beasley isn't good as a free runner; McKenzie isn't good as a possession receiver.   Neither of them is kick and punt returner.   Both have been good in limited roles, but not broad roles.   Look again at Pringle and Hardiman.   Each is a reliable return man, each is a threat on the jet sweeps and other plays that attack the perimeter with speed, each is a downfield pass catcher.   When they're on the field, anything is possible.   When Beas and McKenzie are possible, they don't threaten with the same broad array of tools.  

 

I don't think passing schemes will make Beasley more valuable, and I don't have a lot confidence that McKenzie will deliver consistently.  

 

Sanders would be a better threat in Beasley's role, but I wonder if he'll be back.  I think Stevenson is too small, but he has some upside.  Knox, Davis.  There are talented guys to work with, and there'll be a new face or two next season.  As I said, I welcome the prospect that the next OC will be better at getting receivers into space, because if that happens, Allen will be amazing. 

I'm glad you have felt the same way as the bolded txt.   while Daboll had done good things it seems he can be very inconsistent.   Its up to your field General to put players in the most advantageous positions on the field.  yes the player has to execute but, he has the ability by scheme and design to either make their job much harder or easier.  a lot of times ive felt like he was just vanilla in design and expected the players to handle the load.   

 

We talk about playing elite teams and how much harder it is to defend the wr's and qb.   we tend to put a lot of that on the ability of the players but i think at least half of that is that those players are more elite because their coach puts them in positions to have success with out having to work as hard, which increases your chances of having success.   

 

How many games has Daboll just came out flat...like had no game plan or that it was like he didnt watch tape to see what the weakness was of the team we were playing.   then you have all the head scratching plays where your trying to figure out what the heck he was thinking.

 

I think its very probable that Daboll helped Josh get to where he is but some where along the way Josh and the offense ran away from Dabolls ability to keep up and coach to the level we now need and are now at. 

Plus it's  like things had to get defcon 5 critical levels of something needs to be done NOW   before he would make changes.   

 

So back to my original post you quoted..it was more about coaches putting Bills players in a system-scheme on the field to where they were in the same situation as players on the Chiefs.   You mentioned what Kc does and the scheme those players are in and how it benefits them so i was curious if the players dont have the talent to be in that type of scheme..(which im guessing is what you think for the most part, or if Daboll just isnt designing that type of system for them to succeed in.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

14 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I have one lol!

Who was that running back who ran for like a million yards against Miami in what was a playoff game iirc?  Before that game 3 yards was a long gain for him, or so it seemed.. He looked very strong but he seemed to never gain yardage. Never.

Is this the Tim Tindale game? I had a good ol' time watching that game with my family as a kiddo.

[BobChalmers]

On 1/28/2022 at 12:00 PM, Dr. Who said:

This is a team that needs speed and they're likely going to let this fella walk? And they kept Davis off the field for much of the season. Really curious asset management.

 

Not using Davis most of the year might be the single most clearly damning indictment of the coaching staff this season.  The guy won the Colts playoff game for them last season - no way in hell he should have been so far down the depth chart.  He needs to be the clear #2 next year.

 

I'm going to hope benching Davis was Daboll's idea and we're getting an instant uprgade with his departure!!  😂

Edited January 30, 2022 by BobChalmers

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

I wouldn't mind double-dipping at WR in the draft. An outside receiver with good speed and a slot receiver with good speed who can work behind Beasley for a year and handle returns and jet sweeps.

[BobChalmers]

1 minute ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

I wouldn't mind double-dipping at WR in the draft. An outside receiver with good speed and a slot receiver with good speed who can work behind Beasley for a year and handle returns and jet sweeps.

 

They need a CB, an IOL, and probably a DT, and an RB.  After that they can draft as many WR's as you'd like!  lol

 

Hill was a 5th rounder, btw!  

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

2 minutes ago, BobChalmers said:

 

They need a CB, an IOL, and probably a DT, and an RB.  After that they can draft as many WR's as you'd like!  lol

 

Hill was a 5th rounder, btw!  

Richard Sherman and Josh Norman were 5ths, you can play that game for any position.

 

As McDermott has said you don't want to lose your fastball. The Bills win games by throwing the ball to wide receivers. We can add a speed element to not only keep safeties back but to gain easy yardage with RAC that we couldn't get this year.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

31 minutes ago, BobChalmers said:

Hill was a 5th rounder, btw!  

 

Hill was a 5th rounder because he'd been kicked off the OSU team for allegedly punching his pregnant girlfriend in the stomach and face and choking her.  He was given probation and directed to take anger management and counseling classes.

 

You don't typically find a diamond that can shine that brightly in the 5th round unless there's a flaw - either a checkered past, or an injury history, or something.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What's not easily replaceable about McKenzie is his speed and quickness.  He's that Fast Guy who has shown he can actually develop into a football player, though it took him a couple years.  He can block now, surprisingly well for a small guy.  He can run actual routes and make moves now.  He's starting to be used out of the backfield.

 

But he still has flaws, and maybe they're fatal flaws to him taking the next step.  Ball security is the biggy.

 

 

What show is this?  I'd like to listen, do you have a linky or point me at where to find it online?

 

Its the one with Sal and sneaky Joe on WGR form 10 -12 am ,probably find it on Audacy or WGR.

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

7 hours ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

Is this the Tim Tindale game? I had a good ol' time watching that game with my family as a kiddo.

Yes, it was, thank you! I felt as if he he nevr had a decent run before then. That was a very strange game. Jerry Ostroski even threw a couple of successful blocks! It was as if the Dolphins were having a job action of sorts.

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

If Frazier comes back than kiss the season away next year.  And his 2 fans that support cannot understand that this clown has been running the same formations the last 5 years.  I feel bad for Josh that he has to wait for Frazier to retire to get a Super Bowl 

[Shaw66]

10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Hill was a 5th rounder because he'd been kicked off the OSU team for allegedly punching his pregnant girlfriend in the stomach and face and choking her.  He was given probation and directed to take anger management and counseling classes.

 

You don't typically find a diamond that can shine that brightly in the 5th round unless there's a flaw - either a checkered past, or an injury history, or something.

This caused me to go back and look the Chiefs other receivers.   Kelce, third round.  Hardman, second round.  Pringle, undrafted free agent.  So, that's three guys - Hill, Hardman, and Kelce who were highly rated by scouts, and one diamond-in-the rough.  As much as I'm the guy who's always saying coaching is more important than talent, the Chiefs clearly have gone out and gotten talent to execute what the coaches envision. 

 

The Bills have invested draft capital in only three receivers - Diggs (by trading a first-round pick), Knox, and Davis.  Beane always says you build your team through the draft, you plug your holes in free agency.   What does that tell us about McKenzie, Beasley, and Sanders?   They were acquired to plug holes, and although you certainly hope to strike gold in your free agents, it isn't likely.  There are two kinds of free agents - the older ones and the younger ones.   You sign the older ones because you know what you're getting, and that's what the Bills got in Beasley and Sanders.   You sign the younger ones because you think you see things in them that will allow them to develop into the kind of player you want.   In fact, the Bills struck gold in exactly that way with Poyer and Hyde, although, they'd already shown they could have impact before the came to Buffalo.   McKenzie, however, was an experiment.   Maybe he can become the guy, maybe not.   Turns out, I think, not.  

 

The Chiefs already had Kelce when they drafted Mahomes, and then they took Hill in 2016.  They already had the table set when they drafted Mahomes in 2017.  The Bills weren't so fortunate.   The Bills got their version of Hill in Diggs, but until now they've filled out their receiving corps with guys who have plugged holes more than been weapons.   I know I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth here, because I've been saying that offensive philosophy and route design has limited the success those receivers, like McKenzie have had, but of course it works both ways.  Daboll might very well have been more creative with a Kelce in the lineup instead of Knox, and with a Hardman instead of Beasley.  

 

I've talked myself into believing that the Bills need to invest in a wideout.  

[Shaw66]

31 minutes ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

If Frazier comes back than kiss the season away next year.  And his 2 fans that support cannot understand that this clown has been running the same formations the last 5 years.  I feel bad for Josh that he has to wait for Frazier to retire to get a Super Bowl 

There's a part of me that agrees with this - I've been hoping Frazier gets a head coaching job, just like I was hoping Daboll would.   But I don't think it's as bleak as you suggest.  

 

The Bills are about continuous improvement.   They won't come back in 2022 with the same defense they had in 2021.  They will study the defense and find things that they want to do better, and that will, I think, include an adjustment in defensive philosophy.  McDermott doesn't need many more examples that his extreme prevent-defense approach late in games isn't ideal.   The Chiefs game was not the first time that he's either blown a game or come darn close to blowing it because of that stuff.   He will change and adapt.   

 

Remember, he came out of the Jim Johnson defensive coaching tree, along with Spagnuolo, and Johnson didn't have a conservative approach.  He wanted to attack.   McDermott's going to be thinking about his defense a lot this off season, and he won't forget his roots.  McDermott will adjust, and because he's a good soldier, Frazier will, too.   

 

Just my hunch. 

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

17 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

There's a part of me that agrees with this - I've been hoping Frazier gets a head coaching job, just like I was hoping Daboll would.   But I don't think it's as bleak as you suggest.  

 

The Bills are about continuous improvement.   They won't come back in 2022 with the same defense they had in 2021.  They will study the defense and find things that they want to do better, and that will, I think, include an adjustment in defensive philosophy.  McDermott doesn't need many more examples that his extreme prevent-defense approach late in games isn't ideal.   The Chiefs game was not the first time that he's either blown a game or come darn close to blowing it because of that stuff.   He will change and adapt.   

 

Remember, he came out of the Jim Johnson defensive coaching tree, along with Spagnuolo, and Johnson didn't have a conservative approach.  He wanted to attack.   McDermott's going to be thinking about his defense a lot this off season, and he won't forget his roots.  McDermott will adjust, and because he's a good soldier, Frazier will, too.   

 

Just my hunch. 

The reason I am saying this first Eric Washington, was a very good defensive line coach in Carolina he developed guys like Hardy, Star to name a few and his defensive line always pressured the hell out of Qb’s and don’t forget when the Bills had Mike Petton the Bills sacked the Qb like 49 times leading the NFL until the last game when McDermott defense took over the top spot with 50 and a large part of that was Washington being there and now his line is a joke and I don’t blame Washington.
 

Frazier has not had one defensive lineman in Buffalo make the Pro Bowl let alone be up for Al-Pro this is a concern when McDermott found his mark as a great defensive cordinator Frazier was not apart of his staff in Carolina the only place Frazier was at Baltimore as defensive backs coach.

[Rocket94]

On 1/28/2022 at 10:31 AM, cv05 said:

Nothing earth shattering but I found it interesting none the less. A few thoughts:

• He seemed surprised he hasn't learned anything about what broke down. He said something like "I'm usually the Adam Schefter of the team, but nothing, I don't know anything"
• He was (understandably) critical of the defense during the 13 seconds in a few comments
• You can tell he and McDermott clash - I can't imagine he's coming back next year

 

 

 

Nothing was learned from last year. The Colts nearly knocked the Bills out. That should have been enough of a warning!

[The Jokeman]

22 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, is that who offered him?  Can you give any more details?   (also wondering how you know - again, not doubting, just asking for source)

 

Unless the Bears offered him a multi-year contract or more guaranteed $$, I can't blame him for thinking that perhaps he'd be better off here with a chance to compete at both KR/PR and for playing time.

 

I just remember his name linked to the Bears, he's a link

 

https://www.bleachernation.com/bears/2021/03/19/the-bears-are-showing-an-interest-in-free-agent-receiver-isaiah-mckenzie/