A Breakdown of the 31 yard run by Damien Harris

[34-78-83]

38 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No, that's not it.

 

Nickel has been the official base defense of the NFL for years now.

 

Whatevs man you know exactly what I mean because we’ve already been over it before we are mostly but not entirely on the same page . The Nickel reference is in reference to gap responsibility, and you know already that he’s been playing much better this season. Well aware of the rest of your take on him.

Edited December 28, 2021 by 34-78-83

[HardyBoy]

5 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

I'll do some reading this week to try to get up to speed.  Right now I read your stuff, and it might as well be written in Ancient Greek.  I appreciate your stuff, I just don't understand it yet.  LOL, listening to yet another caller on OBL that said "49 overran the play!"  Now there's some penetrating analysis.

 

Dunning Krueger and Group Think at its finest!

 

Drives me crazy when people who don't know something try to make people that do know something really well feel like they are doing something wrong because they do not understand.

 

Lean into the ambiguity and watch a couple of YouTube videos to get a base understanding. It's not that complex to understand enough to grasp what is happening (analyzing it is different). 

 

@HoofHearted should not change a thing other than paragraphs

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

This concept is very hard for a lot of the Edmunds apologists to reconcile.

 

They are so caught up trying to be the polar opposite of the "Edmunds sucks" contingent that they don't realize that the answer is in the middle.

 

He's the most physically talented MLB in the NFL.    The size and athleticism combo is pretty unique.

 

So being a top 10-12 MLB/ILB.........a devalued position.........is still a considerable underachievement.

 

 

No Edmunds apologist here. He’s an above average player. Not a game changer. Not a weak link. This “instinct” argument though is overplayed… you can’t ad-lib a run fit. Those who understand football know this.

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

A lot of great defensive players will abandon their responsibility when a play is there to be made. But that requires great instincts which Edmunds obviously does not have. I would refer to Tre White as an example of what I mean. A lot of his interceptions happen when he abandons his man or zone because he anticipates where the QB is about to throw the ball. Even Levi Wallace had a pick like that against the Dolphins.

 

That's what an elite game changing defensive player brings to the table. The athletic and technical ability to follow the rules of the defense, but also the intelligence to break them when doing so creates the better play. The best of them will even bait the offensive player into making a move that they are ready to stop. That's the difference between playing checkers and playing chess.

 

So sure, Edmunds had a fine play and filled his responsibility. A better player would have anticipated the cut back and been ready to stop it. Edmunds is what he is at this point. An elite athlete with a below average feel for the game. I think that's all he will ever be.

Please read.

[BADOLBILZ]

20 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Those who understand football know this.

 

 

Oh we got a weak one here.......

 

[HoofHearted]

8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Oh we got a weak one here.......

 

Stick around. Maybe you’ll learn you something 😉.

[BADOLBILZ]

21 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Stick around. Maybe you’ll learn you something 😉.

 

 

Oh I'm always open to it...........but anyone who doesn't even understand that many of the great individual plays you see on the field are the result of in-play adjustments is likely too narrow minded to provide much perspective.  

 

The fact that you call it "ad libbing".........which implies unpreparedness..........says it all.

 

The key to looking instinctive is quickly identifying all of the possibilities.....which starts with preparedness..........and then choosing the best play to make.

[Mikie2times]

Given he has not talked that negatively about Edmunds and does seem to know what he's talking about one can only conclude that he is in fact Tremaine Edmunds.  

[BillsVet]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

No, that's not it.

 

Nickel has been the official base defense of the NFL for years now.

 

And if some fans were paying attention, it's why in Buffalo McBeane paid Taron Johnson 24M over 3 years.  

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

I did.  The sites that came up used even more impenetrable jargon.

 

This might help, it has very little text

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

The root of the issue here is how they plan on treating an H-Back across the formation post-snap. There doesn't appear to be any trade rules in place based on how Taron Johnson is playing the H across as he's looking to following him across the field which ultimately leaves the Bills a guy short in the box.

 

 

Seems to me this is the heart of the issue. 

 

In the AFCCG, seemed like the Chiefs had made a pretty good study (maybe the Colts did too) of how to create gaps in the Bills D they could exploit.

Seems like in the KC game earlier this season, the Bills D did a pretty good job coming up with trade rules that filled the gaps.

11 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

You lost me at 3, 5, 9 technique.  Nice try, but I'm at ABC level in my analysis.  My Edmunds and Ford reports are See Spot Run, while your breakdown is Ulysses.

 

This help?  I agree on the jargon sometimes, but understanding the basic lingo is ABC

[Man with No Name]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Oh I'm always open to it...........but anyone who doesn't even understand that many of the great individual plays you see on the field are the result of in-play adjustments is likely too narrow minded to provide much perspective.  

 

The fact that you call it "ad libbing".........which implies unpreparedness..........says it all.

 

The key to looking instinctive is quickly identifying all of the possibilities.....which starts with preparedness..........and then choosing the best play to make.

Can't be in two places at once. 

[Rochesterfan]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Oh I'm always open to it...........but anyone who doesn't even understand that many of the great individual plays you see on the field are the result of in-play adjustments is likely too narrow minded to provide much perspective.  

 

The fact that you call it "ad libbing".........which implies unpreparedness..........says it all.

 

The key to looking instinctive is quickly identifying all of the possibilities.....which starts with preparedness..........and then choosing the best play to make.

 

What in play adjustment does he need to make on this play to make you happy?

 

He filled his hole and played off the tackle so that if the cutback was properly filled by either DB they force him right to Edmunds for a 4-5 yard gain.

 

If Edmunds cuts down and plays the hole Harris actually hits that leaves a gapping hole front side for Harris and a Tackle with no one to block.

 

What you really want here is a Elite HOF type play where Edmunds crashes into the LT to block that hole and then slides off and perfectly fills a second hole.

 

That is not what you are ever going to get from Edmunds.  Most people seem to agree he is elite talent and about a top 10 ILB - he is not Ray Lewis - which is what you are asking for.

 

The problem is people try to grade him against elite MLBs and Edmunds is not a MLB.  He and Milano are essentially 2 LBs covering the majority of the field.  The team consistently runs a small front and a nickel package - so it should be very easy to run against.  They specifically gameplan to force issues in the passing game.  
 

The DLine is not drafted and designed to clog running lanes, the 2 LBs are not big bruisers, and the 3rd LB role is filled by Taron Johnson.  They only stop the run by everyone doing their job and filling in the holes and when they get out of position you get a big run.

 

He is what he is - he is a top end LB that plays most plays exactly as they should be played and when others are doing their job - the defense is tight.  Otherwise it is a mess and due to their size - sometimes even being perfect isn’t enough as a big line can dominate.  In that case you need an offense that can score - which is exactly what the Bills have.

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, Man with No Name said:

Can't be in two places at once. 

 

 

No but being in the right place to prevent the big play is the foundation the Bills defense is built on.    

 

They sacrifice small gains to achieve this all day.

 

A very instinctive LB knows what that defensive alignment is vulnerable to........recognizes that the Patriots have a dangerous play called by the movement of the OL and the realization that it's a run play...........thinks like a RB at the hand-off and is available to help prevent a 30 yard run not washed off into a pile on the other side of the formation.
     

Edmunds just doesn't think quick enough on his feet to put himself in position to make plays.   

 

People point to the Bills coaching staff praising his play as proof that he's doing everything that they want...........well you can't just tell someone to think faster and see the field clearer..........all they can do is keep feeding him information and hope that thru experience he develops a greater awareness.

 

 Around 70 games into his career it's getting past the point where you can just expect it though.    

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

What in play adjustment does he need to make on this play to make you happy?

 

He filled his hole and played off the tackle so that if the cutback was properly filled by either DB they force him right to Edmunds for a 4-5 yard gain.

 

If Edmunds cuts down and plays the hole Harris actually hits that leaves a gapping hole front side for Harris and a Tackle with no one to block.

 

What you really want here is a Elite HOF type play where Edmunds crashes into the LT to block that hole and then slides off and perfectly fills a second hole.

 

That is not what you are ever going to get from Edmunds.  Most people seem to agree he is elite talent and about a top 10 ILB - he is not Ray Lewis - which is what you are asking for.

 

The problem is people try to grade him against elite MLBs and Edmunds is not a MLB.  He and Milano are essentially 2 LBs covering the majority of the field.  The team consistently runs a small front and a nickel package - so it should be very easy to run against.  They specifically gameplan to force issues in the passing game.  
 

The DLine is not drafted and designed to clog running lanes, the 2 LBs are not big bruisers, and the 3rd LB role is filled by Taron Johnson.  They only stop the run by everyone doing their job and filling in the holes and when they get out of position you get a big run.

 

He is what he is - he is a top end LB that plays most plays exactly as they should be played and when others are doing their job - the defense is tight.  Otherwise it is a mess and due to their size - sometimes even being perfect isn’t enough as a big line can dominate.  In that case you need an offense that can score - which is exactly what the Bills have.

 

 

 

 

 

On one hand you claim that I am expecting the impossible from Edmunds.

 

On the other you say that a great player could make a difference there.

 

The fact is that physically Edmunds IS that great player.

 

Mentally,  he is a journeyman special teamer/off-ball LB.

 

I smh at all the people on this site who watch extraordinarily instinctive players like Hyde, Poyer and White perform at levels well above what their physical numbers indicate they should be able to.    None of them would be out of place on an All Pro team in any year since they've been here.    

 

But at the same time Edmunds is CLEARLY less than the sum of his extraordinary physical attributes and people want to shout down that notion............while often at the same time saying he's not an extraordinary player.

 

I can only say so many times that he's a top 10-12 ILB/MLB in the NFL.......I've never said he's bad he's just been very underwhelming for a guy with that much physical talent.

 

If him not turning into a game changing,  playmaking performer is OK with you then that's fine if you want to own that.    Not me.

 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

On one hand you claim that I am expecting the impossible from Edmunds.

 

On the other you say that a great player could make a difference there.

 

The fact is that physically Edmunds IS that great player.

 

Mentally,  he is a journeyman special teamer/off-ball LB.

 

I smh at all the people on this site who watch extraordinarily instinctive players like Hyde, Poyer and White perform at levels well above what their physical numbers indicate they should be able to.    None of them would be out of place on an All Pro team in any year since they've been here.    

 

But at the same time Edmunds is CLEARLY less than the sum of his extraordinary physical attributes and people want to shout down that notion............while often at the same time saying he's not an extraordinary player.

 

I can only say so many times that he's a top 10-12 ILB/MLB in the NFL.......I've never said he's bad he's just been very underwhelming for a guy with that much physical talent.

 

If him not turning into a game changing,  playmaking performer is OK with you then that's fine if you want to own that.    Not me.

 

I don’t disagree with this, but overall I thought he played well in the Pats game, particularly vs the pass. He was an intimidator out there and got to runners quickly and violently to make the tackle.

[Coach Tuesday]

50 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I don’t disagree with this, but overall I thought he played well in the Pats game, particularly vs the pass. He was an intimidator out there and got to runners quickly and violently to make the tackle.

Decleating small WRs running crossers in front of him is the type of low-hanging fruit that he finally started plucking this year.

[Heitz]

On 12/27/2021 at 1:54 PM, 34-78-83 said:

Until some of our fans realize that we play a 2 backer Nickel scheme which alters gap responsibility as compared to an actual 4-3, and also prioritizes what the lbs do in coverage of areas ( very rarely man on man) and pass off eligible receivers to other zone defense areas, they’ll never be satisfied with Edmund’s play. That’s fine and even understandable. I think Edmund’s won’t get all the $ some defenders that make more game changing plays get on the second contract, but I do feel like he’ll be re-signed here and deservedly so. If his agent gets too greedy and asks for Leonard or R Smith $, we’ll then maybe we’ll have a problem. He does ALOT of what the coaches want him to do well, and as I’ve often said this season is bringing the wood more often… And thanks for the break down Hoof. It’s funny that there are still folks that try to debate detailed film based analysis such as that. I think it’s more the “facts are now debatable” world that we live in now.

FWIW, Tasker said as much yesterday on OBD - what Edmunds is asked to do is very different than what the MLB is asked to dk on other teams.  And because of that fans maybe aren’t judging him fairly.  
 

He pointed out he’s a two time Pro Bowler, the MLB on a D that’s been near the top of the league, the guy making the calls for the D (so a little knowledge in his head) and that the coaches always praise what he does.

 

I mean, you got me - seems like he’s often out of place, but I don’t know what place he’s supposed to be in 🤣.

 

I do think he’ll be resigned, probably at a price many of us won’t like, but likely Beane will offer fair value for his services.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Heitz

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Decleating small WRs running crossers in front of him is the type of low-hanging fruit that he finally started plucking this year.

Honestly this was the thing that absolutely drove me NUTS about Edmunds. You HAVE to make WR’s pay for going across the middle in the NFL. I’m okay with a penalty or two if they duck their head but the mental aspect of them hearing footsteps is so damn important. 
 

When you watched the Saints Bucs games, it was unfortunate so many of their players got hurt, but they were getting SMASHED when they touched the ball. When guys get smashed, they drop passes, tip passes, alligator arm it, etc.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I don’t disagree with this, but overall I thought he played well in the Pats game, particularly vs the pass. He was an intimidator out there and got to runners quickly and violently to make the tackle.

 

Yeah but is it really too much to ask of him to make a play on a football when the tackle opportunity is so easy?    How much is there to gain by hard-hugging a nearly full-stopped interchangeable Patriots WR when you can also use one of those 35" arms to reach around and knock the football loose in the process.    It's all basics with Tremaine.   It's like having an Escalade with no power seats, no cruise, no navi......

 

[Dopey]

On 12/27/2021 at 12:56 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

What he didn't do is recognize the potential cut back coming.........and that's a feel/instinct thing.

 

Edmunds doesn't make plays because he lacks to ability to process and anticipate.........he's the embodiment of checker player at MLB.

 

That hokey-pokey he played with the Pats RB in pass pro where the scrub just ran a circle around him allowing feeble Mac to hit him for a first down was another Edmunds gem.

 

If he had the instincts of AJ Klein he'd be an NFLDPOY candidate.

That was actually a hell of a route by the RB. 90 percent of LBs would not be able to cover that route.  Hell, a lot of DBs too. As to the cutback, you're wrong. He did his job forcing the cutback. It's someone else's responsibility to fill that cutback lane. Same as the long TD run in the first NE game. He forced the cutback, but Milano and Hyde screwed up. But so many here blamed Edmunds. They were wrong. Glad we have someone like HoofHearted to explain. Even if some don't want to hear it.