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Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

Tiberius

By Tiberius
in Politics, Polls, and Pundits

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SoCal Deek Hall of Famer

SoCal Deek

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It would be interesting to see a poll on here of whether or not Russia is going to invade. I actually don't think they will. Putin is trying to show that Russia doesn't want a NATO country right on their doorstep, which would open that door to a NATO build up of weapons on the Russian border, just like the build up we don't like on the Russian side of the Ukrainian border. Is that such an unreasonable position for Russia to take?  This is not about democracy or the other crap being batted around on here. 

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Tiberius
Tiberius

Much better chance than under Trump. So yes, I do think Biden will show leadership. 

leh-nerd skin-erd
leh-nerd skin-erd

Kay, here’s the dealio.  Tribalism is a fancy world for people being people, and there’s not much more to it than that.    I visited Florida last week (the state, not hip hop singer extraordina

aristocrat
aristocrat

no matter how much you deflect Ukraine is being destroyed because Russia doesn’t respect America under Biden 

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Doc Hall of Famer

Doc

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36 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

It would be interesting to see a poll on here of whether or not Russia is going to invade. I actually don't think they will. Putin is trying to show that Russia doesn't want a NATO country right on their doorstep, which would open that door to a NATO build up of weapons on the Russian border, just like the build up we don't like on the Russian side of the Ukrainian border. Is that such an unreasonable position for Russia to take?  This is not about democracy or the other crap being batted around on here. 

 

This.  Of course we/the US would want it, but it's no reason at all for us to go to war over.

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SoCal Deek Hall of Famer

SoCal Deek

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50 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

This.  Of course we/the US would want it, but it's no reason at all for us to go to war over.

The vast majority of Americans couldn’t find Ukraine on a map…even with labels!! They wouldn’t know that this large land mass nation would instantly be the most eastern NATO country…and completely obliterate any buffer zone between NATO and Russia. If you were playing Risk you too would be massing your armies on the border. Why is this complicated?

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Doc Hall of Famer

Doc

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31 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

The vast majority of Americans couldn’t find Ukraine on a map…even with labels!! They wouldn’t know that this large land mass nation would instantly be the most eastern NATO country…and completely obliterate any buffer zone between NATO and Russia. If you were playing Risk you too would be massing your armies on the border. Why is this complicated?

 

Eh, I always made sure to go for Kamchatka and massed armies there...

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Tiberius Hall of Famer

Tiberius

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13 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m fairly confident that Joe Biden lost every time he played. 

Yes, but in fairness to Biden, you are kind of slow. 

 

Old Joe is speaking softly and carrying a big stick. 

Quote


KYIV, Ukraine — President Biden is dispatching additional U.S. military personnel to Eastern Europe at the recommendation of the Pentagon, and about 3,000 service members are expected to deploy in the coming days, U.S. officials said Wednesday.

The deployments of U.S. troops from Germany and Fort Bragg, N.C., are temporary moves intended to reassure NATO allies, according to two U.S. officials in Washington who spoke on the condition of anonymity ahead of a formal Pentagon announcement. The moves reflect concerns that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine, and other service members could also be ordered to go and remain on a heightened alert status, the officials said.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/02/ukraine-russia-putin-military-nato/

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SoCal Deek Hall of Famer

SoCal Deek

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Just now, Tiberius said:

Yes, but in fairness to Biden, you are kind of slow. 

 

Old Joe is speaking softly and carrying a big stick. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/02/ukraine-russia-putin-military-nato/

Tibs

i actually don’t have a problem with what Biden’s trying to do. Unfortunately though I don’t think he has the street cred to pull it off. We’re all going to see. 

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Chef Jim Hall of Famer

Chef Jim

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17 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

It would be interesting to see a poll on here of whether or not Russia is going to invade. I actually don't think they will. Putin is trying to show that Russia doesn't want a NATO country right on their doorstep, which would open that door to a NATO build up of weapons on the Russian border, just like the build up we don't like on the Russian side of the Ukrainian border. Is that such an unreasonable position for Russia to take?  This is not about democracy or the other crap being batted around on here. 

 

You Putin loving boot licker!!!  (Just saving Tibs the keystrokes)  

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Old Joe is speaking softly and carrying a big stick. 

 

 

I don't think this is what Teddy had in mind.  He must be rolling in his grave.  

 

 

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All_Pro_Bills Veteran

All_Pro_Bills

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6 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

What an embarrassment.

 

 

Tibs can take his kneepads off now

 

Should we assume as leader of one NATO member he has authority to dictate policy to all other NATO members.  Or has already consulted them with this brilliant idea?  Along with unilaterally granting territorial access to a Russian leader these other nations consider an adversary and threat?  And the Poles and Romanians have agree too?

 

If this is factual I can hear Peppermint Patty walking this back at the next WH PR.  Something like "We believe, and the President believes, blah, blah, blah". 

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All_Pro_Bills Veteran

All_Pro_Bills

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22 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Honest question: Wouldn't it be better for everyone if the US just told the Ukraine that we don't think it's a good idea for them to join NATO?

That's too logical.  You need to stop.  If that would happen then the potential for peace to break out everywhere might usher in a new era of human cooperation.  And how would all those defense contractors supported by 800+ billion in annual US government spending along with 100's of billions more from elsewhere survive?  Where would former officials in the State and Defense departments and the Pentagon find work in the private sector. 

What's next?  Diverting all those funds to solving problems of poverty, hunger, and research and development into sources of unlimited energy?  No, it's way more productive to live though an era of constant warfare and conflict.  Suggesting peace and prosperity rather than death and war might lead others to accuse us of being Putin sympathizers.  It's much better for our country to pursue a policy of acting like a 50 ton truck with no road manners.    

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SoCal Deek Hall of Famer

SoCal Deek

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5 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

That's too logical.  You need to stop.  If that would happen then the potential for peace to break out everywhere might usher in a new era of human cooperation.  And how would all those defense contractors supported by 800+ billion in annual US government spending along with 100's of billions more from elsewhere survive?  Where would former officials in the State and Defense departments and the Pentagon find work in the private sector. 

What's next?  Diverting all those funds to solving problems of poverty, hunger, and research and development into sources of unlimited energy?  No, it's way more productive to live though an era of constant warfare and conflict.  Suggesting peace and prosperity rather than death and war might lead others to accuse us of being Putin sympathizers.  It's much better for our country to pursue a policy of acting like a 50 ton truck with no road manners.    

I've got an even better idea than spending my tax dollars on your list of 'diversions'....why not just give it back to me?  Just say "Hey, we didn't start a war with anyone this year, so we're sending you a refund!"  Now THAT would be nice.

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Tiberius Hall of Famer

Tiberius

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Go Joe! 🇺🇸 

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President Biden vowed Monday that a major European energy pipeline would be abandoned if Russia sends forces into Ukraine, intensifying pressure on the Kremlin as Western leaders attempt to stave off a renewed assault on the continent’s eastern edge.

Biden issued the threat after talks with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, whose recently formed government has pledged to take part in Western retaliation should Russia seize more Ukrainian territory, as it did in the 2014 annexation of Crimea.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/07/ukraine-russia-scholz-biden-macron/

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SectionC3 Veteran

SectionC3

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On 2/2/2022 at 5:12 PM, SoCal Deek said:

Honest question: Wouldn't it be better for everyone if the US just told the Ukraine that we don't think it's a good idea for them to join NATO?

 

If we let Russia run over Ukraine, then then Chinese get eyes on Taiwan.  Global geopolitics at work.  I'm not saying that we get involved in a ground war in Ukraine--I don't think that's a good idea--but I'm all for making this really, really painful for Russia should Russia move on Ukraine.  And, we should beef up our presence in Poland and the Baltics.  Don't want NATO in Ukraine?  Fine.  But invade Ukraine and you get an awful lot more NATO in other nearby places. 

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All_Pro_Bills Veteran

All_Pro_Bills

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47 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

 

If we let Russia run over Ukraine, then then Chinese get eyes on Taiwan.  Global geopolitics at work.  I'm not saying that we get involved in a ground war in Ukraine--I don't think that's a good idea--but I'm all for making this really, really painful for Russia should Russia move on Ukraine.  And, we should beef up our presence in Poland and the Baltics.  Don't want NATO in Ukraine?  Fine.  But invade Ukraine and you get an awful lot more NATO in other nearby places. 

Only under very specific circumstances would I expect Russia to invade Ukraine and right now I don't see those circumstances being present.  The only party sounding the alarm here is the Biden Administration.  Statements from officials in France, Germany, and even Ukraine express little concern for an eminent invasion.  Watching ABC World News Tonight you'd be led to believe its going to happen at any moment.

 

My read of Putin and an examination of Russian ambitions is he has two strategic objectives here.  1) Integrate Russia economically with Europe, specifically closer ties with Germany and 2) systemically eliminate U.S. influence in the Middle East.  Both of these goals, pushing the U.S. out of specific spheres of influence in place since the end of world war 2, are supported by efforts already in motion, for example NordStream2 and OPEC+.  Middle East relations with Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc.  Neither objective stands to benefit by moving aggressively to attack Ukraine.  In short, I think Ukraine is just a diversion.

 

This is nothing more complicated than a game of Empire.  Russia wants to extend their influence, the U.S. wants to contain them and maintain the current arrangements.  And while we tussle with Russia, China is quietly and discreetly extending their influence everywhere.  Essentially taking over and colonizing big swatches of Africa and extending their influence in other places like South America, the Middle East, and Greater Asia in search of procuring markets and securing resources.  While we focus on sideshows like Ukraine.  If we want to win this game there needs to be some focus on critical and key interests and not a reflex action to engage in every little dust-up around the planet.   

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