Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

This feels true to me.

 

Also to note that, after the atrocities in Bucha and the reports of Russians castrating POWs and then murdering them will make it very hard for Ukraine to accept any agreement that leaves parts of Ukraine under Russian control.

 

Ultimately, whatever deal is to be made must be made by the Ukrainians and I just don't see them agreeing to anything that keeps Ukrainians under Russian control.

So what's the answer Goose?  There has to be a better way than all of this carnage and destruction....no?

[ChiGoose]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

So what's the answer Goose?  There has to be a better way than all of this carnage and destruction....no?

I'm not sure what the answer is or if there even is one.

 

But from what I can tell, the only thing that might accomplish both:

1. Recovering all of, or enough Ukraine territory to allow the Ukrainians to feel comfortable with a peace deal; and
2. Punching Russia in the face enough that they have to accept their losses and acquiesce to a deal

Would be to supply the Ukrainians with enough weapons, ammo, and intelligence, to enable them to push Russia back, at least to the 2014 ceasefire borders, if not further.

 

Already, the HIMARS are changing the game. Give them more, and give them additional weapons like MLRS, drones, maybe even planes, and tons and tons of ammo.

 

There is no scenario I can think of in which a peace is reached without things getting a lot bloodier first.

[sherpa]

12 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

 

 Give them more, and give them additional weapons like MLRS, drones, maybe even planes, and tons and tons of ammo.

 

 

Absolutely not.

The Ukrainians have come to the conclusion that airplanes are not the answer.

The A-10 proposal was a really bad idea.

[ChiGoose]

13 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Absolutely not.

The Ukrainians have come to the conclusion that airplanes are not the answer.

The A-10 proposal was a really bad idea.

 

Ah, I didn't realize they had changed their minds. I recall them asking for F-15's and F-16's, but the Biden administration was worried about them using the planes to strike inside Russian territory.

 

In any case, they need to be able to destroy Russian artillery to level the playing field. HIMARS seem to be doing a good deal there, but they only have a couple and Russians are already adjusting their tactics.

[meazza]

53 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Thanks....and I think everyone would agree with you there. But that doesn't mean that it isn't time for some serious diplomacy. What's the alternative?  Just keep bombing and killing, bombing and killing? I sure hope not.

 

This is why I made the parrallel to Israel and Palestine.  The discussion might be nuanced but there is also the big picture in which one side will never truly accept the other and always claim grievances.  The result is a 70 year ongoing conflict.

[sherpa]

1 hour ago, ChiGoose said:

 

Ah, I didn't realize they had changed their minds. I recall them asking for F-15's and F-16's, but the Biden administration was worried about them using the planes to strike inside Russian territory.

 

In any case, they need to be able to destroy Russian artillery to level the playing field. HIMARS seem to be doing a good deal there, but they only have a couple and Russians are already adjusting their tactics.

 

They have no way of using any of these aircraft effectively, on so many levels

Giving them those airplanes would be a big mistake

[Coffeesforclosers]

19 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

They have no way of using any of these aircraft effectively, on so many levels

Giving them those airplanes would be a big mistake

 

If the choice is between gradually losing their airforce, or learning to fly planes their benefactors can actually replace...then its a pretty easy choice. 

[sherpa]

31 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

If the choice is between gradually losing their airforce, or learning to fly planes their benefactors can actually replace...then its a pretty easy choice. 

 

Not possible, and not a good idea.

The simple reality is that they have absolutely no way of utilizing such systems.

Total waste of effort.

[ChiGoose]

3 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Not possible, and not a good idea.

The simple reality is that they have absolutely no way of utilizing such systems.

Total waste of effort.

 

From what I've read, there is discussion on training them, but I agree that doing that in a war is too difficult. There also had been discussion of transferring NATO planes to former Eastern Bloc countries so those countries can send their MiGs and SUs to Ukraine, but I don't get the impression that this is happening either.

[Coffeesforclosers]

15 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

 

From what I've read, there is discussion on training them, but I agree that doing that in a war is too difficult. There also had been discussion of transferring NATO planes to former Eastern Bloc countries so those countries can send their MiGs and SUs to Ukraine, but I don't get the impression that this is happening either.

 

Its got to be an equipment thing. We're not at war, and we train pilots for our allies all the time.

 

The Ukrainians dont have to qualify top gun, the just have to be better than the Russians flying against Ukraine. 

[Tiberius]

2 hours ago, meazza said:

 

This is why I made the parrallel to Israel and Palestine.  The discussion might be nuanced but there is also the big picture in which one side will never truly accept the other and always claim grievances.  The result is a 70 year ongoing conflict.

Or both will never accept anything. Prods and Catholics in Ireland might also be a sort of parallel. Either way there are going to be people living under a gov they do not support 

1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

If the choice is between gradually losing their airforce, or learning to fly planes their benefactors can actually replace...then its a pretty easy choice. 

Or maybe a full drone air force? I'd rather have some of those drones than A-10s. 

 

I do wonder how well the A-10's would do though. Interesting plane

[SoCal Deek]

I had to step away and get some actual work done and came back to read this back and forth about ‘mutually assured destruction’ (kidding). Hard to believe my left-leaning friends on here found a war that they support so strongly. I honestly hope there’s a better way. These conflicts seem rather archaic in the 21st Century. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

14 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

I do wonder how well the A-10's would do though. Interesting plane

 

Its better they weren't sent.  They'd really take a beating. 

[meazza]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

I had to step away and get some actual work done and came back to read this back and forth about ‘mutually assured destruction’ (kidding). Hard to believe my left-leaning friends on here found a war that they support so strongly. I honestly hope there’s a better way. These conflicts seem rather archaic in the 21st Century. 

And all your right leaning friends probably oppose any aid to Ukraine and call zielinsky a nazi.

 

Funny how things have changed. 

[ALF]

This war is all on Putin. The Russian people or military have to change his twisted mind.

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, meazza said:

And all your right leaning friends probably oppose any aid to Ukraine and call zielinsky a nazi.

 

Funny how things have changed. 

I’m not sure on that one (you may be correct). What I find most troubling is that the very mention of diplomacy gets no air time from either side. Which is a real shame…for sure. 

[meazza]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not sure on that one (you may be correct). What I find most troubling is that the very mention of diplomacy gets no air time from either side. Which is a real shame…for sure. 

It’s what I have been seeing on twitter and from some of the old posters here on another site .

 

Letting France lead the assault on qaddafi was considered leading from behind but aiding Ukraine against an aggressor is just contributing to the swamp.  
 

The diplomacy has to come from Russia.  They and they alone have the power to stop this. They won’t.  

Edited August 3, 2022 by meazza

[ALF]

UN nuclear chief: Ukraine nuclear plant is `out of control’

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The U.N. nuclear chief warned that Europe’s largest nuclear power plant in Ukraine “is completely out of control” and issued an urgent plea to Russia and Ukraine to quickly allow experts to visit the sprawling complex to stabilize the situation and avoid a nuclear accident.

 

“Every principle of nuclear safety has been violated” at the plant, he said. “What is at stake is extremely serious and extremely grave and dangerous.”

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-science-accidents-d2e0077af104f2692b76f737c58e1984

 

The Chernobyl disaster was a nuclear accident that occurred on 26 April 1986 at the No. 4 reactor in the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant, near the city of Pripyat in the north of the Ukrainian SSR in the Soviet Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

[Coffeesforclosers]

12 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not sure on that one (you may be correct). What I find most troubling is that the very mention of diplomacy gets no air time from either side. Which is a real shame…for sure. 

 

I agree.  So how do we help Ukraine win the war? 

[Tiberius]

29 minutes ago, ALF said:

UN nuclear chief: Ukraine nuclear plant is `out of control’

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The U.N. nuclear chief warned that Europe’s largest nuclear power plant in Ukraine “is completely out of control” and issued an urgent plea to Russia and Ukraine to quickly allow experts to visit the sprawling complex to stabilize the situation and avoid a nuclear accident.

 

“Every principle of nuclear safety has been violated” at the plant, he said. “What is at stake is extremely serious and extremely grave and dangerous.”

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-science-accidents-d2e0077af104f2692b76f737c58e1984

 

The Chernobyl disaster was a nuclear accident that occurred on 26 April 1986 at the No. 4 reactor in the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant, near the city of Pripyat in the north of the Ukrainian SSR in the Soviet Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

oh boy 

[sherpa]

10 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Its got to be an equipment thing. We're not at war, and we train pilots for our allies all the time.

 

The Ukrainians dont have to qualify top gun, the just have to be better than the Russians flying against Ukraine. 

 

It is way more complicated than simply training pilots. They have no ability to maintain them or arm them.

We are already deeply involved in this, draining our own war stock with massive supply of arms.

The Harry S. Truman is reportedly flying 80 sorties a day in support of this.

That is a massive and unsustainable pace, as well as rapidly using up service life of these airplanes.

(That, by the way, was a major issue in enforcing the the Iraqi no fly zone and part of the calculus to inform the decision to invade, though not often mentioned).

 

For what I think is a reasonable explanation of these issues, and certainly describes my view,  here is a link to a very recent youtube discussing it.

The guys talking are a retired F-14 RIO, (back seater), who is extremely well informed on current military aviation issues and a Reservist Naval Intel Officer.

It is well worth listening to for those who do not know what is involved in something like this and just want to "do somethng."

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su34D4KnO6s&t=1227s

 

[Big Blitz]

 

Covid convinced them how easily manipulated the population is.

[Tiberius]

 

[BillsFanNC]

No way!

 

 

[ALF]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

 

 

That would cross the line and NATO would have the excuse to intervene so Putin is not that dumb.

[Coffeesforclosers]

2 hours ago, ALF said:

 

That would cross the line and NATO would have the excuse to intervene so Putin is not that dumb.

 

It wouldn't.  NATO's mutual defense clause only applies to an attack on a member in North America or Europe.   NATO has no obligation to back us up if China attacked Guam or Hawaii.  It's also the reason why the UK had to take on Argentina by itself over the Falklands.

 

However, if for whatever reason those North Koreans attacked say Poland or the Baltics, yeah, then the balloon goes up.

[sherpa]

1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

  It's also the reason why the UK had to take on Argentina by itself over the Falklands.

 

 

Technically, this is correct.

For the edification of the class though, the UK did not take on "Argentina by itself."

 

Ships passing in the night, things get "passed."

 

Intel on sub locations get passed by a slip of the tongue among friendly nations.

 

[meazza]

5 hours ago, DRsGhost said:

No way!

 

 

I haven’t had a chance to watch the full video but the topic seems centered on logistics rather than corruption…

[BillsFanNC]

16 minutes ago, meazza said:

I haven’t had a chance to watch the full video but the topic seems centered on logistics rather than corruption…

 

Logistics or corruption are one in the same when we were told this aid was an emergency and time was of the essence and now three months later we learn only 30% of supplies are reaching their destination.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/10/us/politics/congress-ukraine-aid-questions.html

 

On Tuesday, hours before the House was to vote, Oksana Markarova, the Ukrainian ambassador to the United States, met separately with Republicans and Democrats in the Senate, where the measure is now headed, to personally call for swift passage of the package.

“Her people are dying. They’re running out of supplies and ammunition. They need our help quickly,” said Senator Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, the No. 2 Democrat, describing Ms. Markarova’s message as: “Thank you for all our help, but please speed it up.”

 

“Time is of the essence — and we cannot afford to wait,” Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California wrote to lawmakers in a letter on Tuesday ahead of the vote. “With this aid package, America sends a resounding message to the world of our unwavering determination to stand with the courageous people of Ukraine until victory is won.”

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 hour ago, meazza said:

I haven’t had a chance to watch the full video but the topic seems centered on logistics rather than corruption…

 

DR sees the world entirely in Red vs. Blue glasses.  His "side" happens to be Red.

 

You can compare and contrast him to say, Sherpa, who supports Ukraine and wants them to win, but sees clear practical limits to the amount of support we can provide.  The limits are  based on our military readiness, possible enemies (read, China), and obligations around the globe.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers

[L Ron Burgundy]

8 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

This is nuts if it happens on so many levels.  If it actually goes down I wonder what the response will be.

 

Will they send elite troops or cannon fodder that would just run away?  So many questions to this lunacy.

[BillsFanNC]

1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

DR sees the world entirely in Red vs. Blue glasses.  His "side" happens to be Red.

 

You can compare and contrast him to say, Sherpa, who supports Ukraine and wants them to win, but sees clear practical limits to the amount of support we can provide.  The limits are  based on our military readiness, possible enemies (read, China), and obligations around the globe.

 

Interesting take given this aid was passed with BIPARTISAN support.

 

Perhaps you missed the dozens of other times I've said that I'm neither D nor R.  I'm registered independent.  I think BOTH parties suck ass and they both take the blame here.

 

And ***** off.

[Coffeesforclosers]

11 minutes ago, DRsGhost said:

 

Interesting take given this aid was passed with BIPARTISAN support.

 

Perhaps you missed the dozens of other times I've said that I'm neither D nor R.  I'm registered independent.  I think BOTH parties suck ass and they both take the blame here.

 

And ***** off.

 

Oh come on.  Your posts in this subforum are 95% embeds from the Q twittersphere.  You spam out tweets from Jack Posobiec, as if he didn't have his security clearance yanked by the Air Force for cause.  Give me a break.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers

[BillStime]

10 minutes ago, DRsGhost said:

 

Interesting take given this aid was passed with BIPARTISAN support.

 

Perhaps you missed the dozens of other times I've said that I'm neither D nor R.  I'm registered independent.  I think BOTH parties suck ass and they both take the blame here.

 

And ***** off.

[BillsFanNC]

2 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Oh come on.  Your posts in this subforum are 95% embeds from the Q twittersphere.  You spam out tweets from Jack Posobiec, as if he didn't have his security clearance yanked by the Air Force for cause.  Give me a break.

 

How typical.  Because the left has gone off the deep end anyone who points out the fact that they've gone off the deep end is a Qanon / conspiracy theorist.

 

Weak as weak can get. And ***** off.  Again.

[meazza]

7 minutes ago, DRsGhost said:

 

How typical.  Because the left has gone off the deep end anyone who points out the fact that they've gone off the deep end is a Qanon / conspiracy theorist.

 

Weak as weak can get. And ***** off.  Again.

 Correction, the left and right have gone off the deep end.  

[BillsFanNC]

1 minute ago, meazza said:

 Correction, the left and right have gone off the deep end.  

 

True and it would be nice if 95% of legacy media, all of big tech and the DC swamp acknowledged this.  That's the crux of the matter.

 

Instead its the right has gone off the deep end and the left is  A-OK by us.

 

THAT is why I post from the sources that I do.  

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

14 minutes ago, meazza said:

 Correction, the left and right have gone off the deep end.  

 

My point exactly.

[BillsFanNC]

1 minute ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

My point exactly.

 

ok. Do you think that the right and left are held to account in equal proportion among media, big tech and federal institutions?

[All_Pro_Bills]

16 minutes ago, DRsGhost said:

 

ok. Do you think that the right and left are held to account in equal proportion among media, big tech and federal institutions?

The only problem with your argument is that the media is heavily skewed to the left and for all intents and purposes the political left and the mainstream media are a single integrated entity.