Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[L Ron Burgundy]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

 

That's nuts.  That has to have repercussions outside of western businesses (hopefully).  Who'd want to set up shop there with the risk of that happening?

[Coffeesforclosers]

13 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

That's nuts.  That has to have repercussions outside of western businesses (hopefully).  Who'd want to set up shop there with the risk of that happening?

 

Well, all this started because Putin thinks Russians are some kind of chosen people, with a great mission.  Folks like that don't worry too much about consequences or reality in general.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers

[Big Blitz]

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

18 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

Ted Cruz is a broken clock, so he's going to be right once more today.  All he's doing is quoting statements from Russia itself.

 

Also, who's Michael Tracey, and why should anybody care what he says?

[sherpa]

1 minute ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Also, who's Michael Tracey, and why should anybody care what he says?

 

This entire thread, while interesting, is filled with stuff from people who should not be regarded seriously.

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

22 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

This entire thread, while interesting, is filled with stuff from people who should not be regarded seriously.

 

 

But...he's got a SubStack and 250,000 Twitter followers!

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, Big Blitz said:

 

What does the last sentence mean? Conservatives are being exploited by GOP?? 

[Coffeesforclosers]

Keep an eye out for Popasna in the headlines.  Something's going on there, and it's not good for Ukraine.  Russia is shouting to the rooftops, which usually means ***** all.  But open source analysts like ISW are noting some sizeable Russian gains.  

 

Usually Ukraine is pretty good at controlling Russian advances, but this one is in a very threatening area.

[Tiberius]

Quote

 

WASHINGTON, May 19 (Reuters) - The White House is working to put advanced anti-ship missiles in the hands of Ukrainian fighters to help defeat Russia's naval blockade, officials said, amid concerns more powerful weapons that could sink Russian warships would intensify the conflict.

Ukraine has made no secret it wants more advanced U.S. capabilities beyond its current inventory of artillery, Javelin and Stinger missiles, and other arms. Kyiv's list, for example, includes missiles that could push the Russian navy away from its Black Sea ports, allowing the restart of shipments of grain and other agricultural products worldwide.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-us-aims-arm-ukraine-with-advanced-anti-ship-missiles-fight-russian-2022-05-19/

[Coffeesforclosers]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-us-aims-arm-ukraine-with-advanced-anti-ship-missiles-fight-russian-2022-05-19/

 

Good.  Break the Russian blockade and get food flowing to the Global South again.

 

Popasna is heating up.  Best case for Ukraine, this is some kind of gambit so they can overextend russian supply lines, then chew up a division of Russian paratroopers.  Best case for Russia, this is the breakthrough they've been fighting for since the beginning of April.

[Tiberius]

They just keep getting slaughtered trying to cross rivers 

 

 

[Tiberius]

I saw a video of a Russian drone being attacked with a stinger like weapon. I get they gave to shoot it down but thought there must be a cheaper way to do it. I knew they used proximity fuses in WW2 to very great effect. So I did some searching and sure enough our military industrial complex is on the ball! 

 

Good! 

 

https://www.overtdefense.com/2021/10/12/new-proximity-fuse-powers-apkws-anti-drone-capabilities/

 

Quote

BAE claims that the proximity fuze-equipped rockets can engage and destroy unmanned aerial systems at a fraction of the cost of current counter-UAS systems. According to the company, anti-drone engagements with APKWS also saves time, with the rockets’ semi-active laser guidance after launch bypassing the need for a target lock-on before launch with a conventional missile.

Quote

 

 

[sherpa]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

I saw a video of a Russian drone being attacked with a stinger like weapon. I get they gave to shoot it down but thought there must be a cheaper way to do it. I knew they used proximity fuses in WW2 to very great effect. So I did some searching and sure enough our military industrial complex is on the ball! 

 

 

The cheapest way to deal with them is to jam them.

Requires nothing kinetic, and no other weapon.

 

Prox fuses have been in use for decades in a wide variety of applications.

 Nothing new.

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, sherpa said:

 

The cheapest way to deal with them is to jam them.

Requires nothing kinetic, and no other weapon.

 

Prox fuses have been in use for decades in a wide variety of applications.

 Nothing new.

I understand contrarians need to try and disagree over anything, but nothing new? It's literally a new weapon system 

 

Next time your silly contrarian impulses get too much of you, how about you go fly a kite or something? 

[Tiberius]

Have seen a few reports like this, with insurgency actions taking place in Soviet, I mean Russian, controlled areas 

 

 

[Tiberius]

Credit where credit is due 

 

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

On 5/19/2022 at 7:21 AM, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Well, all this started because Putin thinks Russians are some kind of chosen people, with a great mission.  Folks like that don't worry too much about consequences or reality in general.

Ironically eastern Europeans despise Russians and Russia.  I was in Poland when it was communist when I was young.  It is so different now its hard to articulate.   To this day I like to discuss the weirdness of that time with family that lived through it.  

[sherpa]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

I understand contrarians need to try and disagree over anything, but nothing new? It's literally a new weapon system 

 

Next time your silly contrarian impulses get too much of you, how about you go fly a kite or something? 

 

Very good.

 

My "contrarian impulses" know a bit about air defense, drones, what they are capable of, how to employ them, and deal with them if you have a respectable air defense.

 

To your suggestion, I have a four year old granddaughter and we greatly enjoy flying her kite on my property.

It's a learned skill.

 

 

 

[Niagara Bill]

So Biden would defend Taiwan if China invades, but not Ukraine. WTF is this talk. According to NY POST

[Tiberius]

 

[Tenhigh]

4 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

So Biden would defend Taiwan if China invades, but not Ukraine. WTF is this talk. According to NY POST

According to Biden himself, watch the video.

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/president-joe-biden-u-s-will-defend-taiwan-militarily-if-china-invades-140605509957

 

 

[Niagara Bill]

4 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

Is Trump becoming a total isolationist, or is Vladdy just a friend?

Hard to belive the GOP, who for decades believed communists were evil, could not be allowed to spread anywhere (Korea, Vietnam) and certainly not in our hemisphere (Cuba, Panama,), now support getting out of NATO and allowing spread of Communism. Wow, who is writing this bad movie. The greatest democracy the world has ever seen is moving to help dictators. 

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

Is Trump becoming a total isolationist, or is Vladdy just a friend?

Hard to belive the GOP, who for decades believed communists were evil, could not be allowed to spread anywhere (Korea, Vietnam) and certainly not in our hemisphere (Cuba, Panama,), now support getting out of NATO and allowing spread of Communism. Wow, who is writing this bad movie. The greatest democracy the world has ever seen is moving to help dictators. 

Not the entire GOP, thank God. I just hope the isolationists do not take over that party

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Not the entire GOP, thank God. I just hope the isolationists do not take over that party

Yes, our government has an outstanding track record of getting involved in all kinds of foreign adventures in the past 20 plus years without being held to any standard of accountability or providing clear and measurable objectives and they've all worked out great.  I'm sure this one will too.  What could go wrong? 

 

Economically things couldn't have worked out better for Russia or worse for the US and Western Europe to this point.  Ukrainians are being killed and the country being destroyed, a worldwide food crisis is coming, prices of all kinds of commodities and energy are through the roof, and while they've suffered an unexpectedly high level of casualties and setbacks militarily, the Russian Ruble is worth more now than it was before the war started and Putin's foreign trade income is double.  Great work.      

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Yes, our government has an outstanding track record of getting involved in all kinds of foreign adventures in the past 20 plus years without being held to any standard of accountability or providing clear and measurable objectives and they've all worked out great.  I'm sure this one will too.  What could go wrong? 

 

Economically things couldn't have worked out better for Russia or worse for the US and Western Europe to this point.  Ukrainians are being killed and the country being destroyed, a worldwide food crisis is coming, prices of all kinds of commodities and energy are through the roof, and while they've suffered an unexpectedly high level of casualties and setbacks militarily, the Russian Ruble is worth more now than it was before the war started and Putin's foreign trade income is double.  Great work.      

Ukraine stands firm! Go cry about that one with Putin's tanks littering the countryside 

[Tenhigh]

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Ukraine stands firm! Go cry about that one with Putin's tanks littering the countryside 

Tibs, why are your feelings so strong about the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Not trying to be a jerk, I am really just interested as to why this topic lights you up do much.

[All_Pro_Bills]

10 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Ukraine stands firm! Go cry about that one with Putin's tanks littering the countryside 

Your mindset of thinking about warfare only in terms of territorial conquest is limiting your assessment of the situation and you're either not comprehending or willing to understanding the "big picture" of what's going on here. 

[Tiberius]

10 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Tibs, why are your feelings so strong about the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Not trying to be a jerk, I am really just interested as to why this topic lights you up do much.

I think this is an interesting question. It seems to me, you are implying that they are not part of "my group" so I shouldn't care if they are crushed and have genocide visited upon them. Is that what you think? 

 

They are being attacked by a total POS scum bag garbage person and army. Why would I NOT support their fight for freedom? 

5 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Your mindset of thinking about warfare only in terms of territorial conquest is limiting your assessment of the situation and you're either not comprehending or willing to understanding the "big picture" of what's going on here. 

Wrong. 

 

It's about democracy and the autocrat scum bag who wants to kill their self government 

[Tenhigh]

Just now, Tiberius said:

I think this is an interesting question. It seems to me, you are implying that they are not part of "my group" so I shouldn't care if they are crushed and have genocide visited upon them. Is that what you think? 

 

They are being attacked by a total POS scum bag garbage person and army. Why would I NOT support their fight for freedom? 

Wrong. 

I'm not implying anything, I'm just trying to understand your motivation, you are very passionate about this instance of Russia invading Ukraine.  Why is this one so personal to you over say Hong Kong, or Crimea?

[All_Pro_Bills]

7 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Wrong. 

 

It's about democracy and the autocrat scum bag who wants to kill their self government 

Self government!  Ukraine is completely controlled by Washington consistent with how previous versions of Ukrainian governments were completely controlled by Moscow.  You really think Zelensky is calling the shots?  If he engaged in peace talks or a deal with Russia without US permission he'd be killed.   

 

 

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

16 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

I'm not implying anything, I'm just trying to understand your motivation, you are very passionate about this instance of Russia invading Ukraine.  Why is this one so personal to you over say Hong Kong, or Crimea?

So you watch civilians being bombed and don't feel anything either way? 

 

Why do you ask? 

4 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Self government!  Ukraine is completely controlled by Washington consistent with how previous versions of Ukrainian governments were completely controlled by Moscow.  You really think Zelensky is calling the shots?  If he engaged in peace talks or a deal with Russia without US permission he'd be killed.   

 

 

 

 

 

No 

[Coffeesforclosers]

24 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Self government!  Ukraine is completely controlled by Washington consistent with how previous versions of Ukrainian governments were completely controlled by Moscow.  You really think Zelensky is calling the shots?  If he engaged in peace talks or a deal with Russia without US permission he'd be killed.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what's you're argument?  I'm trying to understand it, and here's where I'm at.

 

America successfully turned Ukraine into an American puppet, when it used to be a Russian puppet. Now Russia's invaded an American puppet, and even though their invasion has turned out nothing like they planned, they're actually winning overall because prices on the commodity market are sky high right now?

 

[Niagara Bill]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Not the entire GOP, thank God. I just hope the isolationists do not take over that party

They have...DT

[B-Man]

 

 

UKRAINE WAR: Syria’s barrel bomb experts in Russia to help with potential Ukraine campaign.

 

Intelligence officers say more than 50 specialists, all with vast experience in making and delivering the crude explosive, have been in Russia for several weeks working alongside officials from Vladimir Putin’s military.

 

Their arrival is understood to be one factor behind US and European warnings that the Russian military may have been preparing for the use of chemical weapons in the conflict, which has entered its fourth month with little sign of slowing.

 

Barrel bombs – crude explosives packed in to a drum and dropped from a helicopter – were used to devastating effect throughout the Syrian war.

 

Under Vlad Putin, Russia is transforming itself from a Third World nation with a First World military to a Third World nation with a Third World military.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/22/syrias-barrel-bomb-experts-in-russia-to-help-with-potential-ukraine-campaign

 

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

3 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

UKRAINE WAR: Syria’s barrel bomb experts in Russia to help with potential Ukraine campaign.

 

Intelligence officers say more than 50 specialists, all with vast experience in making and delivering the crude explosive, have been in Russia for several weeks working alongside officials from Vladimir Putin’s military.

 

Their arrival is understood to be one factor behind US and European warnings that the Russian military may have been preparing for the use of chemical weapons in the conflict, which has entered its fourth month with little sign of slowing.

 

Barrel bombs – crude explosives packed in to a drum and dropped from a helicopter – were used to devastating effect throughout the Syrian war.

 

Under Vlad Putin, Russia is transforming itself from a Third World nation with a First World military to a Third World nation with a Third World military.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/22/syrias-barrel-bomb-experts-in-russia-to-help-with-potential-ukraine-campaign

 

 

 

 

I'm kinda surprised you read The Guardian, @B-Man!

[B-Man]

17 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

I'm kinda surprised you read The Guardian, @B-Man!

 

 

I get sources from all over.

 

The majority are center right, but many are not.

 

 

And more importantly, British newspapers of all types print much more info than the woke-hobbled U.S. media.

 

 

👍

 

 

 

 

ADDED:

 

Russian Diplomat Quits Over ‘Criminal’ Ukraine War: ‘Never Have I Been So Ashamed of My Country.’

 

https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2022/05/23/russian-diplomat-quits-over-criminal-ukraine-war-never-have-i-been-so-ashamed-of-my-country-n1600084

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by B-Man

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

 

 

UKRAINE WAR: Syria’s barrel bomb experts in Russia to help with potential Ukraine campaign.

 

Intelligence officers say more than 50 specialists, all with vast experience in making and delivering the crude explosive, have been in Russia for several weeks working alongside officials from Vladimir Putin’s military.

 

Their arrival is understood to be one factor behind US and European warnings that the Russian military may have been preparing for the use of chemical weapons in the conflict, which has entered its fourth month with little sign of slowing.

 

Barrel bombs – crude explosives packed in to a drum and dropped from a helicopter – were used to devastating effect throughout the Syrian war.

 

Under Vlad Putin, Russia is transforming itself from a Third World nation with a First World military to a Third World nation with a Third World military.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/22/syrias-barrel-bomb-experts-in-russia-to-help-with-potential-ukraine-campaign

 

 

 

Crude indeed. Hopefully it will make an easy target for artillery 

 

And to the bolded, this war will probably be a major turning point in Russian history one way or another. Hopefully toward a liberal democracy and not into a new North Korean 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

So what's you're argument?  I'm trying to understand it, and here's where I'm at.

 

America successfully turned Ukraine into an American puppet, when it used to be a Russian puppet. Now Russia's invaded an American puppet, and even though their invasion has turned out nothing like they planned, they're actually winning overall because prices on the commodity market are sky high right now?

 

Well, I agree with you completely, my back and forth with Tibs is about an unrelenting obsession that America is acting to protect democracy. 

 

I think that's an ideological fantasy.  My position is the US is acting purely out of self-interest.  Like it or not the US sets the rules governing the world order and whether or not a country is a democracy or not is not important.  The most important fact is either they follow the rules set by the US or they do not follow the rules set by the US.  Russia, and a few other countries, dangerously a growing number, do not want to or do not follow the rules.  Rule breakers must be put down.  So like the Romans sending a couple legions to a far away province to put down a rebellion the US deploys various State department diplomats, intelligence operatives, and scores of military advisors and boatloads of armaments and financial aid.  To restore the order.  In this case by intervening through proxy state Ukraine letting them do all the fighting and dying while most likely compensating their leadership very well under the table.  That's all this is about.  Maintaining the business arrangements and rules of the Empire.  But the primary goal of supporting democracy?  You can't be serious! 

 

    

[Tiberius]

3 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

I get sources from all over.

 

The majority are center right, but many are not.

 

 

And more importantly, British newspapers of all types print much more info than the woke-hobbled U.S. media.

 

 

👍

 

 

 

 

ADDED:

 

Russian Diplomat Quits Over ‘Criminal’ Ukraine War: ‘Never Have I Been So Ashamed of My Country.’

 

https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2022/05/23/russian-diplomat-quits-over-criminal-ukraine-war-never-have-i-been-so-ashamed-of-my-country-n1600084

 

 

[Tiberius]