Bobby Johnson: The Source of O-Line Issues (in my opinion)

[Scott7975]

56 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

From McD, yes.

 

Do I think he is sitting a position coach down and asking him to analyze whether a player should be traded? No.

 

A GM’s job is to evaluate talent and build a roster in no small part due to talent evaluation.

 

That’s a specialized skill set.

 

When the Bills are vying for a free agent, is Beane calling that players position coach (whose team may also be vying to bring the player back) and ask whether he should sign the player?

 

No way.

 

When the Bills are drafting, is Beane calling the draftees college position coach to ask whether the Bills should draft the kid?

 

Maybe rarely?

 

Is Beane trading a future All Pro guard to an AFC opponent based on the words of a brand new position coach?

 

Absolutely not.

 

McD and Beane also tend to place a lot of emphasis on versatility. They want versatile players. At the time of the trade. it was thought that Ryan Bates’ ability to play any position on the line was what made Teller expendable.

 

Thats a Beane and McD philosophy. Not a philosophy of the brand new line coach.

 

.

 

Yes, he is getting his information from McD.  Who likely gets input from Daboll and his position coaches.  These decisions are not made by just one or two people.  You are trying to portray Beane as the only one making a decisions based off just his own beliefs.  I assure you there are discussions with the staff that lead to the decisions being made.

[Einstein]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Why do you insist it has to be so binary? 

 

I was responding to a binary post.

 

”If Bobby Johnson gives bad information to Brandon Beane, it turns into bad roster moves.”

 

That’s binary. So I responded in kind, using that framework.

 

Stepping outside of that frame, Beane could certainly hear the OL coach advice and then do his own thing. But that would defeat the purpose of the posters quote and also of this thread as the “blame” would revert back to Beane.

 

4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Yes, he is getting his information from McD.  Who likely gets input from Daboll and his position coaches.  These decisions are not made by just one or two people.  You are trying to portray Beane as the only one making a decisions based off just his own beliefs.  I assure you there are discussions with the staff that lead to the decisions being made.

 

Oh I certainly believe McD holds some blame for the Teller trade as well.

 

But again, the buck stops at Beane. Only he wields the power to trade. His signature adorns the trade paperwork that is faxed to the league office.

 

Many Indians will raise a voice but only the Chief’s voice echo’s above all.

 

.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Einstein

[Scott7975]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I was responding to a binary post.

 

”If Bobby Johnson gives bad information to Brandon Beane, it turns into bad roster moves.”

 

That’s binary. So I responded in kind, using that framework.

 

Stepping outside of that frame, Beane could certainly hear the OL coach advice and then do his own thing. But that would defeat the purpose of the posters quote and also of this thread as the “blame” would revert back to Beane.

 

 

Oh I certainly believe Beane holds some blame for the Teller trade as well.

 

But again, the buck stops at Beane. Only he wields the power to trade. His signature adorns the trade form that is faxed to the league office.

 

Many Indians will raise a voice but only the Chief’s voice echo’s above all.

 

.

Of course.  Beane has the final say.  All I am saying is when they are deciding on the roster at the cut down its not just Beane. I'm sure in some form or another a lot of meetings are had between everyone and they all give their input on who they would like to keep and who they can live without.  

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

Of course.  Beane has the final say.  All I am saying is when they are deciding on the roster at the cut down its not just Beane. I'm sure in some form or another a lot of meetings are had between everyone and they all give their input on who they would like to keep and who they can live without.  

 

Agreed.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Yes, he is getting his information from McD.  Who likely gets input from Daboll and his position coaches.  These decisions are not made by just one or two people.  You are trying to portray Beane as the only one making a decisions based off just his own beliefs.  I assure you there are discussions with the staff that lead to the decisions being made.

 

I think that's correct.  There are a number of places where Beane, McDermott, and the position coaches give input.

 

Daboll at one point explained that they decide which players will be active each week in a meeting with Beane, McDermott, and the 3 coordinators.  Each of them makes their case for what players they need to have active, Beane gives any input he has, and they all need to come to an agreement about what players need to be active or inactive to meet the needs of each phase of the game.  He offered that in response to a question about why someone - maybe it was Duke Williams, or Tommy Sweeney - wasn't active (2019 season IIRC).

 

Beane at one point explained that he and his staff. and McDermott, the coordinator, and the position coaches independently evaluate each player and then he and McDermott and the coordinators sit down to discuss needs at the beginning and end of the season.  In season, if he wants to trade a player I'm pretty sure there would be an update requested.   That doesn't mean he's going to completely follow what the position coach thinks because he needs to balance the whole roster, but it doesn't mean he's going to act on his own evaluation without the position coach's input, either.

 

So as the team gets ready for roster cutdowns, the OL coach and assistants and Daboll have evaluated and ranked the players they've been coaching.

Beane and his team have evaluated them as well.  If there's a gap, they discuss it.    It seems very likely to me that Johnson and Beane both had Teller ranked below Boettger and Bates in their evaluation, because they kept the latter and traded the former.  That evaluation would seem to have been sorely mistaken. 

 

But at the same time, we don't see what happens in an alternative universe where the player doesn't get traded.  Maybe the scheme doesn't suit him as well and he never becomes that good.  Maybe the simple act of being traded, puts a bug up a guy's butt and they say "trade me, will you?  I'LL SHOW YOU!" and work double-hard.  You just don't know.

18 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I was responding to a binary post.

 

”If Bobby Johnson gives bad information to Brandon Beane, it turns into bad roster moves.”

 

That’s binary. So I responded in kind, using that framework.

 

So wait.  You're saying you don't believe it's binary, but because you interpret the poster you're responding to as believing it is, it forces you into a binary response  that doesn't represent how you actually understand it to work?

 

That's rather illogical, if I understood you correctly.

 

[Scott7975]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think that's correct.  There are a number of places where Beane, McDermott, and the position coaches give input.

 

Daboll at one point explained that they decide which players will be active each week in a meeting with Beane, McDermott, and the 3 coordinators.  Each of them makes their case for what players they need to have active, Beane gives any input he has, and they all need to come to an agreement about what players need to be active or inactive to meet the needs of each phase of the game.  He offered that in response to a question about why someone - maybe it was Duke Williams, or Tommy Sweeney - wasn't active (2019 season IIRC).

 

Beane at one point explained that he and his staff. and McDermott, the coordinator, and the position coaches independently evaluate each player and then he and McDermott and the coordinators sit down to discuss needs at the beginning and end of the season.  In season, if he wants to trade a player I'm pretty sure there would be an update requested.   That doesn't mean he's going to completely follow what the position coach thinks because he needs to balance the whole roster, but it doesn't mean he's going to act on his own evaluation without the position coach's input, either.

 

So as the team gets ready for roster cutdowns, the OL coach and assistants and Daboll have evaluated and ranked the players they've been coaching.

Beane and his team have evaluated them as well.  If there's a gap, they discuss it.    It seems very likely to me that Johnson and Beane both had Teller ranked below Boettger and Bates in their evaluation, because they kept the latter and traded the former.  That evaluation would seem to have been sorely mistaken. 

 

But at the same time, we don't see what happens in an alternative universe where the player doesn't get traded.  Maybe the scheme doesn't suit him as well and he never becomes that good.  Maybe the simple act of being traded, puts a bug up a guy's butt and they say "trade me, will you?  I'LL SHOW YOU!" and work double-hard.  You just don't know.

 

Sounds about right.

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, Rigotz said:

Like many of you, I listen to daily podcasts, read the beat reports, and read this message board daily.

The commentary is consistent: "Brandon Beane did a bad job with our Offensive Line."

 

Here's my take ... it's not Beane. It's Bobby Johnson, our O-Line coach.

Bobby Johnson joined the Bills staff in early 2019, his first time as head O-Line coach in the NFL:

 

2018: Brandon Beane drafts Wyatt Teller in the 5th round.

2019: Wyatt Teller traded for a 5th and 6th round pick.

The next year Wyatt Teller becomes a pro-bowl player.

 

2018: Brandon Beane signs Quinton Spain to a 1 year deal, followed by a 3 year extension.

2020: Quinton Spain is benched in favor of Cody Ford and Brian Winters. He is later released.

The next year Quinton Spain becomes a pro-bowl caliber player.

 

2019: Brandon Beane drafts Cody Ford in the 2nd round. He is lined up at Right Tackle and struggles badly.

2020: Cody Ford is lined up at Right Guard and struggles. Quinton Spain is released and Cody Ford is flipped to Left Guard and struggles.

2021: Cody Ford is named starting Right Guard to begin the season, then is benched in week 2.

 

2020: Brandon Beane signs Darryl Williams to a cheap 1 year deal at RT and he is a huge success. 

2021: Darryl Williams begins the year at RT, then is flipped to RG in week 2, then moves back to RT.

 

2021 Offseason: Big contract extensions for Darryl Williams and Jon Feliciano. Both are sub-standard players in 2021.

Spencer Brown drafted in 3rd round. Benched in week 1, starter in week 2, which again changes entire o-line.

 

The problem is not bringing in guys, it's being completely clueless about our own Offensive Line players.

We change their positions endlessly and let the good ones go. That is 100% certain.

 

Beane is certainly partially to blame, but I'm looking at Bobby Johnson as the guy in the O-Line room every day, completely clueless about his own players.

 

 

 

"Clueless"? Absolute nonsense, he's highly respected.

 

And it's ridiculous to blame Johnson for decisions he's not responsible for.

 

And for the Teller thing. You constantly heard that Teller had potential but wasn't there yet. And at that point, you simply don't know what will happen, nobody does. He hadn't broken through yet. Fairly soon after, he did. But some guys do and some guys don't and if it were possible to tell which were which, football overall would make much much better decisions.

 

It's ridiculous also to blame Johnson for the Williams problem. Williams played brilliantly under Johnson at tackle last year. Under Johnson this year he played much less well. How do you blame Johnson for 2021 but not 2020's excellence. Doesn't make any sense. And yes he got moved back to tackle, but only because of injury. This sort of thing happens in the NFL.

 

And you're trying to use Spencer Brown as an indictment for the Bills and the coaches? It's the opposite. They (and Brown himself, of course) deserve huge plaudits. The staff for drafting him, for developing and coaching him, and Brown for improving, listening and being developed, which again is not a sure thing.

 

As many have pointed out, Spain played pretty well here and then seemed to have had some kind of disagreement/problem. We don't know what the problem was, but just blaming Johnson and the staff makes no sense. It could have been them, it could have been Spain, we have no idea.

 

Your argument seems to be that we're having some problems at OL and therefore it's Johnson's fault. Doesn't make sense. These problems are much more complicated than that. Bringing in guys (with salary cap strictures in mind) absolutely does seem to be part of the problem. As do player problems. And yeah, coach problems may also be part of the problem. 

 

No reason whatsoever to think it's the main part, though.

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Yes, he is getting his information from McD.  Who likely gets input from Daboll and his position coaches.  These decisions are not made by just one or two people.  You are trying to portray Beane as the only one making a decisions based off just his own beliefs.  I assure you there are discussions with the staff that lead to the decisions being made.

 

 

Yeah, from McD, and he could very well also call in Johnson. Maybe Daboll too. Maybe more. Getting as much info as possible to help him make decisions is only sensible.

 

 

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think that's correct.  There are a number of places where Beane, McDermott, and the position coaches give input.

 

Daboll at one point explained that they decide which players will be active each week in a meeting with Beane, McDermott, and the 3 coordinators.  Each of them makes their case for what players they need to have active, Beane gives any input he has, and they all need to come to an agreement about what players need to be active or inactive to meet the needs of each phase of the game.  He offered that in response to a question about why someone - maybe it was Duke Williams, or Tommy Sweeney - wasn't active (2019 season IIRC).

 

Beane at one point explained that he and his staff. and McDermott, the coordinator, and the position coaches independently evaluate each player and then he and McDermott and the coordinators sit down to discuss needs at the beginning and end of the season.  In season, if he wants to trade a player I'm pretty sure there would be an update requested.   That doesn't mean he's going to completely follow what the position coach thinks because he needs to balance the whole roster, but it doesn't mean he's going to act on his own evaluation without the position coach's input, either.

 

So as the team gets ready for roster cutdowns, the OL coach and assistants and Daboll have evaluated and ranked the players they've been coaching.

Beane and his team have evaluated them as well.  If there's a gap, they discuss it.    It seems very likely to me that Johnson and Beane both had Teller ranked below Boettger and Bates in their evaluation, because they kept the latter and traded the former.  That evaluation would seem to have been sorely mistaken. 

 

But at the same time, we don't see what happens in an alternative universe where the player doesn't get traded.  Maybe the scheme doesn't suit him as well and he never becomes that good.  Maybe the simple act of being traded, puts a bug up a guy's butt and they say "trade me, will you?  I'LL SHOW YOU!" and work double-hard.  You just don't know.

 

 

 

Yes. You're just making sense here. Saying it far better than I was able to.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Thurman#1

[JMF2006]

How about Bobby(preseason whipping boy) Hart now the starting LT of the Titans?

 

They just won two weeks in a row with him on the blindside.

[colin]

coaching, fair or not, is judged by the end results.  the end results of our OL is disgusting, and our OL coaching needs very rapid improvement.

[White Linen]

19 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Why does Bobby Johnson keep trading all of these studs?

 

Because he's causing injuries to the players in his quest to shuffle players around. 

[JohnNord]

20 hours ago, Rigotz said:

Like many of you, I listen to daily podcasts, read the beat reports, and read this message board daily.

The commentary is consistent: "Brandon Beane did a bad job with our Offensive Line."

 

Here's my take ... it's not Beane. It's Bobby Johnson, our O-Line coach.

Bobby Johnson joined the Bills staff in early 2019, his first time as head O-Line coach in the NFL:

 

2018: Brandon Beane drafts Wyatt Teller in the 5th round.

2019: Wyatt Teller traded for a 5th and 6th round pick.

The next year Wyatt Teller becomes a pro-bowl player.

 

2018: Brandon Beane signs Quinton Spain to a 1 year deal, followed by a 3 year extension.

2020: Quinton Spain is benched in favor of Cody Ford and Brian Winters. He is later released.

The next year Quinton Spain becomes a pro-bowl caliber player.

 

2019: Brandon Beane drafts Cody Ford in the 2nd round. He is lined up at Right Tackle and struggles badly.

2020: Cody Ford is lined up at Right Guard and struggles. Quinton Spain is released and Cody Ford is flipped to Left Guard and struggles.

2021: Cody Ford is named starting Right Guard to begin the season, then is benched in week 2.

 

2020: Brandon Beane signs Darryl Williams to a cheap 1 year deal at RT and he is a huge success. 

2021: Darryl Williams begins the year at RT, then is flipped to RG in week 2, then moves back to RT.

 

2021 Offseason: Big contract extensions for Darryl Williams and Jon Feliciano. Both are sub-standard players in 2021.

Spencer Brown drafted in 3rd round. Benched in week 1, starter in week 2, which again changes entire o-line.

 

The problem is not bringing in guys, it's being completely clueless about our own Offensive Line players.

We change their positions endlessly and let the good ones go. That is 100% certain.

 

Beane is certainly partially to blame, but I'm looking at Bobby Johnson as the guy in the O-Line room every day, completely clueless about his own players.

 

It’s easy to point a finger at Johnson given how bad the Bills offensive line is season but I don’t think it’s fair to use Teller and Spain as marks against him.  
 

To be fair, Johnson did a good job season as the line played fairly well despite losing Morse and Feliciano at times.  He also did a fantastic job resurrecting the career of Daryl Williams who was a flier FA.  Overall the line did a good job in pass protection and was average in the run game, though could be effective at times.  
 

In 2021, the entire line has regressed with the exception of Morse who has been the most consistent lineman.  Dawkins and Williams have not played well, which has been surprising.  
 

Where I think you can blame Johnson is the lack of development players like Boettger and Ford.  They have been awful.  
 

But you have to give Johnson credit for getting Spencer Brown ready to play at RT.

 

Overall it’s a mixed bag for Johnson’s tenure as OL Coach.  I’m not so certain that he’s the problem 

 

[Einstein]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So wait.  You're saying you don't believe it's binary, but because you interpret the poster you're responding to as believing it is, it forces you into a binary response  that doesn't represent how you actually understand it to work?

 

That's rather illogical, if I understood you correctly.

 

 

It’s not illogical, it’s debate theory.

 

When someone is stuck within a certain mindset or framework you must work at least temporarily within that mindset or framework to have any chance of conveying your opinion.

 

Its a commonly taught tactic in every debate class in every university from sea to shining sea.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

It’s not illogical, it’s debate theory.

 

When someone is stuck within a certain mindset or framework you must work at least temporarily within that mindset or framework to have any chance of conveying your opinion.

 

Its a commonly taught tactic in every debate class in every university from sea to shining sea.

 

This isn't a debate where your object is to score points and win the debate or a debate class where your object is to pass the class

 

This is a Football board where the objective is an honest exchange of our actual viewpoints and opinions.

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This isn't a debate where your object is to score points and win the debate or a debate class where your object is to pass the class

 

This is a Football board where the objective is an honest exchange of our actual viewpoints and opinions.

 

And I gave my honest opinion in my first post.

But when your honest opinion is disregarded by a response of only a vomiting emoji, you realize that you may have to work within the persons pre-formed mindset and framework in order to actually have an objective conversation.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

And I gave my honest opinion in my first post.

But when your honest opinion is disregarded by a response of only a vomiting emoji, you realize that you may have to work within the persons pre-formed mindset and framework in order to actually have an objective conversation.

 

I think your definition of "objective conversation" may be a little unusual.  It's just not possible to have objective conversations with some folks here.  But I've never seen it help to exaggerate your own position as a debating tactic.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Anyway, for those who want to behave as though players are constant performing units whose play is affected solely by the coaching they receive, as opposed to complex human beings who are impacted by things like whether or not they've just been paid way more money than the coach is earning, what nagging, unreported injuries may be lingering with them all season, their comfort level in the blocking scheme that's asked of them, their level of energy week to week which may get influenced by external factors (like press clippings) or internal factors (like subtle cues the coaches are giving off that the game is a walkover), and what they've done with their time in the off-season or are doing when they're not at the facility.....I got Nothin' for ya.

 

For those who are actually interested in what went down on Sunday, I got this.

 

Erik Turner of Cover1 has been tweeting abut the Bills protections and OL play and the whole series is worth a look.  Some of it is way over my head.

 

First, he points out how knowing he needed to help his teammates was affecting Morse's snaps.  If we didn't have a QB with very high athleticism, many of these might have been fumbles, but even there, having to handle an "off" snap and focus on putting it where it belongs is an extra fraction of a second taken from making his reads

Allen makes this look easy but I don't think it actually is.

 

 

He then goes into actual pass protection charts - I don't know how standard these are or whether he actually got these from the Bills (licitly or illicitly)

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, you don't need a twitter account to see these - I don't have a twitter account - just google "twitter erik turner"

He's got a lot of good stuff up there.

[blacklabel]

I’ve read from some analysts that they believe they have the wrong type of blocking scheme set up for the players they have. They run a zone scheme, and I’ve seen several analysts say they look much better suited for a pin and pull blocking scheme. 
 

Daboll has also gotten away from those jet sweeps with McKenzie that would see some success. They don’t even run that pre-snap motion that much, if at all. Some of the swing screens worked against Miami, but it was a disaster against Jacksonville. 
 

I also don’t think Quinton Spain is playing insanely great as well. There were rumors that his effort went down and his weight went up after Buffalo extended him. He’s in Cincinnati now and I believe he’s just average. 
 

Wyatt Teller stings a bit. He looked like he had potential after his 8 starts in 2018 but apparently they felt what they did with the OL in 2019 was good enough to give him a chance elsewhere because he was evidently a victim of the numbers game. I think that’s what Beane said at the time. Now he’s an All Pro. But who’s to say he would’ve achieved that here? Cleveland might be running a blocking scheme that’s much more conducive for his skill set. Here, he could be stuck in a scheme he doesn’t excel at and could be whiffing and getting beat just like Ford, Ike, Feliciano and whoever else they put up there. 
 

I do agree putting some blame on Bobby Johnson. Way too many times have there been free rushers this season or dudes getting by Bills OL with one step. I’m not super well versed in OL stuff but that to me would indicate some scheme issues. I also think the communication has been rough with the OL being shuffled around so much. 
 

Lastly, I fully believe they went into Jacksonville without a care in the world. “Let’s get down there, stomp these turds and go home.” You heard it in a lot of post game comments, the fire just wasn’t there for Buffalo. I think they simply expected to roll over them. As the game went on I think they felt like, ok, we aren’t doing so hot but we’ll still pull this one out in the end. But Daboll made them one dimensional with his refusal to run the ball and it was just too easy for Jax to defend. 
 

I hope they’re all PO’ed and grumpy this week. Take that out on the Jets. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by blacklabel

[LABILLBACKER]

Morse's play was commendable. But there were multiple atrocious plays by the other 4. Brown can't come back fast enough. Slide Williams to RG permanently. Put Bates at LG.  Ford & Boettger need to sit.

[Norcalbillsfan]

On 11/9/2021 at 10:17 AM, LeGOATski said:

I just heard on the Locked On Bills podcast that PFF graded Cody Ford the best Olineman in the game. 2nd best offensive player overall.

 

LOL

Ya thats crazy to me, but pff can obviously pretty misleading. I watched the all 22, and pff doesn't take into account that ford got away with murder when it came to holding penalties, only 1 penalty was a miracle.

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

It is also Dabol. Look a o-line coach is as good as his offensive coordinators play calling and also Kelly skipper has to be the worst running backs coach in Bills history.

[LabattBlue]

I am worried that McD seems like the kind of guy who would remain loyal to his coaches even when they are not cutting it.

[Scott7975]

6 minutes ago, BTB said:

I am worried that McD seems like the kind of guy who would remain loyal to his coaches even when they are not cutting it.

 

Didn't he already fire Dennison and Castillo?  He is probably loyal to coaches he feels are doing a good job.