India Walton

[Markaf431]

29 minutes ago, Wacka said:

The judge said if someone writes in Brown now, the write in vote won't count. With the signs I saw for Brown in SOUTH BUFFALO (basically every lawn)  he will win. People don't want a communist light (socialist) as mayor.

so small thing for me. Just watched the Labor Day parade in south Buffalo. Found it funny that Mayor Brown was walking with his supporters and waving. Walton had like 4-5 cars groups of people and she was sitting in a convertible mustang with two very obvious security guards (one on each side) walking next to the car. I’m not saying Brown didn’t have security (I’m sure he did), but to me those optics scream I’m better than walking with my supporters. 

[Doc Brown]

15 hours ago, Buffarukus said:

 

i understand what your saying tactically.

That's all that really matters at this point.  Look at the zip code breakdown in the city of Buffalo for those that voted Democrat and Republican in this last election.  Most voted for Biden above an 80% clip.  You have to go to South Buffalo just to find areas that Biden didn't win by more than 10 points.  You're incredibly naive not to think the only person that can beat Walton is known as a moderate democrat.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/upshot/2020-election-map.html

 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Doc Brown

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Markaf431 said:

so small thing for me. Just watched the Labor Day parade in south Buffalo. Found it funny that Mayor Brown was walking with his supporters and waving. Walton had like 4-5 cars groups of people and she was sitting in a convertible mustang with two very obvious security guards (one on each side) walking next to the car. I’m not saying Brown didn’t have security (I’m sure he did), but to me those optics scream I’m better than walking with my supporters. 

 

Or she's in fear for her life.  Although doesn't/wouldn't/shouldn't she support de-funding the police?

[Doc Brown]

Just now, Doc said:

 

Or she's in fear for her life.  Although doesn't/wouldn't/shouldn't she support de-funding the police?

Those are mental health counselors.  How about maybe increase funding to provide training for police officers to how to deal with a call where a mentally ill person is involved?

[Doc]

Just now, Doc Brown said:

Those are mental health counselors.  How about maybe increase funding to provide training for police officers to how to deal with a call where a mentally ill person is involved?

 

Considering it takes years of undergrad and grad courses to become just a psychologist...

[Buffarukus]

38 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

That's all that really matters at this point.  Look at the zip code breakdown in the city of Buffalo for those that voted Democrat and Republican in this last election.  Most voted for Biden above an 80% clip.  You have to go to South Buffalo just to find areas that Biden didn't win by more than 10 points.  You're incredibly naive not to think the only person that can beat Walton is known as a moderate democrat.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/upshot/2020-election-map.html

 

 

 

yeah i understand but its not naive to say that the only choices that could win are democrat and democrat light. i dont think any major city will necessarily vote red that is entrenched in blue as its the polar opposite of what they are but a left leaning libertarian, a independent that is a mix taking the good of each side and tossing the controversial topics. new york was won by republican in the past. they just elected a mayor that supports law enforcement as both the mayor and gov were "giving the people what they want" and advocating defunding ect. democrats won georgia when all polling said they only had a chance to win one but NO WAY 2 seats. 

 

the rules of the game have changed since covid for the examples i stated. it will only get worse if peoples only choice for a change is just a far more radical version of what hasn't been working. both sides sliding farther from anything that could be considered compromising. true alternatives may lose and i may be naive but you have 100% of losing a race you never run in. 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Buffarukus

[Doc Brown]

4 minutes ago, Buffarukus said:

 

yeah i understand but its not naive to say that the only choices that could win are democrat and democrat light. i dont think any major city will necessarily vote red that is entrenched in blue as its the polar opposite of what they are but a left leaning libertarian, a independent that is a mix taking the good of each side and tossing the controversial topics. new york was won by republican in the past. they elected a mayor that supports law enforcement as both the mayor and gov both were "giving the people what they want" and advocating defunding ect. democrats won georgia when all polling said they would only had a chance to win one but NO WAY 2 seats. 

 

the rules of the game have changed since covid for the examples i stated. it will only get worse if peoples only choice for a change is just a far more radical version of what hasn't been working. noth sides sliding farther from anything that could be considered compromising. true alternatives may lose and i may be naive but you have 100% of losing a race you never run in.

This isn't the mid 90's and even then Guiliani leaned left on social issues (gun control, affirmative action, gay rights, etc.).  Crime is up but nowhere near where it was then.  If we were still in strict lockdown then it's possible a more conservative candidate that leaned left on social issues could win.  I just don't see it at this point though.  Georgia was unique in that Trump kept conservatives home because he convinced enough people that the results couldn't be trusted.

[Buffarukus]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

This isn't the mid 90's and even then Guiliani leaned left on social issues (gun control, affirmative action, gay rights, etc.).  Crime is up but nowhere near where it was then.  If we were still in strict lockdown then it's possible a more conservative candidate that leaned left on social issues could win.  I just don't see it at this point though.  Georgia was unique in that Trump kept conservatives home because he convinced enough people that the results couldn't be trusted.

 

"If we were still in strict lockdown then it's possible a more conservative candidate that leaned left on social issues could win"

 

ive explained how certain people (the unvaxed) are being put on a strict lockdown and liberals seem to be inching further in that direction. if your a dem, and your official is saying you cant travel, go out, put your children in school, work, service customers ect ect ect then i dont care what your political side is..you will not vote that direction. its happening in NYC so there is a large portion of people that are not republican in any way that would vote for somthing THAT IS NOT THAT. thats a door wide open for "outsiders" to step in. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Buffarukus

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, Buffarukus said:

 

"If we were still in strict lockdown then it's possible a more conservative candidate that leaned left on social issues could win"

 

ive explained how certain people (the unvaxed) are being put on a strict lockdown and liberals seem to be inching further in that direction. if your a dem, and your official is saying you cant travel, go out, put your children in school, work, service customers ect ect ect then i dont care what your political side is..you will not vote that direction. its happening in NYC so there is a large portion of people that are not republican in any way that would vote for somthing THAT IS NOT THAT. thats a door wide open for "outsiders" to step in. 

That's not happening in Buffalo.  School is full in person learning starting this Wednesday.  You can go basically wherever you want without a mask.  The Bills game won't require proof of vaccination.  WTF are you talking about?

Edited September 7, 2021 by Doc Brown

[Buffarukus]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

That's not happening in Buffalo.  School is full in person learning starting this Wednesday.  You can go basically wherever you want without a mask.  The Bills game won't require proof of vaccination.  WTF are you talking about?

 

i specifically said NYC. buffalo is a part of the state. with a flick of the wrist the govenor can make it statewide and mandates have been in descussions federally for a long time. this deep into the pandemic and you think if mandates arent happening right here and now that cannot quickly change. buffalo will not be ordered to adopt a sudo lockdown for the unvaxed that NYC has? 

 

so 56% of NY city is fully vaccinated. 64% is one dose. the rest are subject to what i said... excluded from many things in society and at risk of losing their jobs depending if they are state workers, and probably VERY interested in voting for some one else. seeing as some of the 64% are also subject and being fully doesnt mean you nec agree with the mandates, that's enough to flip a election my friend. seeing as its happening in cali before a election is even scheduled shows they arent fing around with this stuff.

 

side note. NO MEDICAL EXEMPTIONS at this time from what I'm aware. have a med reason you can't get vaxed..oh well, you can watch through the window with the rest of the uncomplaint. 

 

side note #2. austrailia is building camps for the unvaxed that wont be finished until 2022. they seem to be fully expecting the unvaxed scourge to be problematic well into the future..and they are preping now to deal with it 🤔

 

teachers unions are fighting against it. hospital workers are fighting against it. 1 poke does not cut it for them. buisnesses that have scrapped by have to ask for papers or turn away customers. fines are being given. but not in buffalo, right now. if it did and a R was on the ticket for for mayor saying no to all of this, id say its foolosh to count them out.

 

by the way this discussion isn't based soley on liberals and lockdowns. just as many independents could see the lack of mandates in florida ect as putting the public at risk and be open to voting thier leaders out. seeing as florida is gaining population while NY is losing it i think its more likely people prefer freedom of choice on this subject though.

 

if you need links to anything ive said let me know. 

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Buffarukus

[Boatdrinks]

9 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Those are mental health counselors.  How about maybe increase funding to provide training for police officers to how to deal with a call where a mentally ill person is involved?

They’d argue all of ‘em are “ mentally ill”. That’s what the attorneys do. 

[Doc Brown]

25 minutes ago, Buffarukus said:

 

i specifically said NYC. buffalo is a part of the state. with a flick of the wrist the govenor can make it statewide and mandates have been in descussions federally for a long time. this deep into the pandemic and you think if mandates arent happening right here and now that cannot quickly change. buffalo will not be ordered to adopt a sudo lockdown for the unvaxed that NYC has? 

 

so 56% of NY city is fully vaccinated. 64% is one dose. the rest are subject to what i said... excluded from many things in society and at risk of losing their jobs depending if they are state workers, and probably VERY interested in voting for some one else. seeing as some of the 64% are also subject and being fully doesnt mean you nec agree with the mandates, that's enough to flip a election my friend.

 

side note. NO MEDICAL EXEMPTIONS at this time from what I'm aware. have a med reason you can't get vaxed..oh well, you can watch through the window with the rest of the uncomplaint. 

 

side note #2. austrailia is building camps for the unvaxed that wont be finished until 2022. they seem to be fully expecting the unvaxed scourge to be problematic well into the future..and they are preping now to deal with it 🤔

 

teachers unions are fighting against it. hospital workers are fighting against it. 1 poke does not cut it for them. buisnesses that have scrapped by have to ask for papers or turn away customers. fines are being given. but not in buffalo, right now. if it did and a R was on the ticket for for mayor saying no to all of this, id say its foolosh to count them out.

 

by the way this discussion isn't based soley on liberals and lockdowns. just as many independents could see the lack of mandates in florida ect as putting the public at risk and be open to voting thier leaders out. seeing as florida is gaining population while NY is losing it i think its more likely people prefer freedom of choice on this subject though.

Buffalo isn't NYC and you're talking pure hypotheticals.  We've gained in population over the last decade.  We weren't the epicenter of the initial Covid outbreak in the US.  The Covid restrictions put in place and currently in place here don't differ much from most of the country.  Same goes for vaccine mandates from employers.  Teachers aren't required to be vaccinated.  You also seem to be in your own bubble on how you view the public at large.  Public opinion is pretty split on whether the government is doing too much, the right amount, or too little when it comes to handling Covid.

[Boatdrinks]

4 hours ago, Buffarukus said:

 

"If we were still in strict lockdown then it's possible a more conservative candidate that leaned left on social issues could win"

 

ive explained how certain people (the unvaxed) are being put on a strict lockdown and liberals seem to be inching further in that direction. if your a dem, and your official is saying you cant travel, go out, put your children in school, work, service customers ect ect ect then i dont care what your political side is..you will not vote that direction. its happening in NYC so there is a large portion of people that are not republican in any way that would vote for somthing THAT IS NOT THAT. thats a door wide open for "outsiders" to step in. 

I’d like to believe that, but all the evidence tells me that most  people in this area aren’t smart. They vote for dogma over themselves. Freedom is too scary to them. They prefer that they ( and everyone else) be TOLD what they must do. 

[Buffarukus]

46 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Buffalo isn't NYC and you're talking pure hypotheticals.  We've gained in population over the last decade.  We weren't the epicenter of the initial Covid outbreak in the US.  The Covid restrictions put in place and currently in place here don't differ much from most of the country.  Same goes for vaccine mandates from employers.  Teachers aren't required to be vaccinated.  You also seem to be in your own bubble on how you view the public at large.  Public opinion is pretty split on whether the government is doing too much, the right amount, or too little when it comes to handling Covid.

 

id say the percentages of the vax in NYC pops my bubble. how can anyone who is unvaxed think the gov is doing just enough or to little? that is a clear indicator that over 30% is not interested in the gov or anyone "saving" them. im pretty sure they are not happy about being punished for that decision, but i have not spoken to them. call it conjecture but im not sure why. the % that only took 1 dose even though they were told 2 will save them i can make assumptions and opinions on. so ill give you that but they to are being punished.

 

at the end of the day your saying im making alot of hypotheticals simply because as of today, right now, in buffalo, your right. removing the very recent history of what's happened and saying with any kind of certainty it won't again is optimistic. that's as far as I'd go.

 

44 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

I’d like to believe that, but all the evidence tells me that most  people in this area aren’t smart. They vote for dogma over themselves. Freedom is too scary to them. They prefer that they ( and everyone else) be TOLD what they must do. 

 

i dont know. people were told do these exact steps and everything will go back to normal. they did them and now are being told thanks for following orders now strap the mask on and continue to distance. you see all those that did not follow us, yeah act like them. i think your right but there are ALOT that have had enough and are no longer in that group, especially parents.

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Buffarukus

[SectionC3]

6 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

I’d like to believe that, but all the evidence tells me that most  people in this area aren’t smart. They vote for dogma over themselves. Freedom is too scary to them. They prefer that they ( and everyone else) be TOLD what they must do. 

You mean like the lower middle

class white guys who vote Republican?  Those are the dumb ones to me.  It takes a special kind of deluded to consistently and proudly vote against your own interests. 

16 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Or she's in fear for her life.  Although doesn't/wouldn't/shouldn't she support de-funding the police?

 

16 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

That's all that really matters at this point.  Look at the zip code breakdown in the city of Buffalo for those that voted Democrat and Republican in this last election.  Most voted for Biden above an 80% clip.  You have to go to South Buffalo just to find areas that Biden didn't win by more than 10 points.  You're incredibly naive not to think the only person that can beat Walton is known as a moderate democrat.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/upshot/2020-election-map.html

 

 

Walton is a terrible candidate who won a primary on a protest vote.  Brown is going to run her over in the general.  Minimum four point win.  Normally I’d say a Republican could never be mayor of Buffalo.  But against India, all bets are off.  I’d gladly take Carl Paladino before her, and that’s saying something. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by SectionC3

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 9/6/2021 at 12:23 PM, snafu said:

Hi, Kay.
1. Castro circa 1950. 

2. She doesn’t self-describe in the “Who is India Walton” section of her website.  However, her endorsements label her as a socialist.  Also her site contains this interview of Walton from Jacobin Magazine (there’s a loaded title!) discussing her endorsement by the Democratic Socialists of America. They discussed Socialism and her vision quite a bit.  Not only that, but any media outlet that announced her primary win distinctly labeled her as a straight-up Socialist, and I never saw her push back on that. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/05/india-walton-interview-buffalo-mayor-race-democratic-primary?fbclid=IwAR2GeLuz8_ra-dCgQ60umzdCm27DDHT7w6LTnaEsEWQFion8kcc2x-4IM1M

 

3. I haven’t read Sinatra’s decision and I don’t know who his brother is.  I will say that the decision, coupled with the past recent news that the City Council is thinking of banishing the office of Mayor led me to my answer #1. With your question #3 are you insinuating that you see a political party setting up the apparatus to defeat a political outsider whom they see as an extremist? Hmmm, have we seen this before?

4. Time will tell. Can’t answer that yet. 

 

5. Depends on a lot of things, but I’d say, like everything Socialist and further left: good in theory, bad in practice. Time and basic human nature erodes the good idea and eventually the only way to sustain the idea is through heavy-handed regulation, to say the least. See my answer #1. 

 

Thank you, snafu, for being the only one to directly address my questions in full.

 

1. Ms. Walton is a democratic socialist. Castro was a dictator who ruled as head of a command economy. The political and economic differences between the two systems are comically enormous.

 

2. You didn’t quite answer my question here. I acknowledge Ms. Walton’s socialist identity. But what are her specific public policies that distinguish her as a socialist and not as a typical liberal? I can only count two: neighborhood-owned grocery stores and support for a public bank. But as a city mayor, she has zero power to ever implement a New York state-owned bank. So is this what the McCarthyite fearmongering is reduced to…fear of better produce options for East Side denizens??

 

3. Sinatra’s brother is a major campaign donor to Byron Brown. We are not our siblings, but it still reeks of corruption. Also, the Buffalo Common Council consists entirely of establishment Democrats. Ms. Walton’s allies aren’t the ones suggesting that the mayor’s office be abolished! And I have never denied that the Democratic Party is horribly corrupt, though political corruption isn’t unique to a particular party or political philosophy.

 

4. In my opinion, this mayoral race will probably have a negligible impact on the national stage. American politics and the progressive movement, however, are so charged and unstable right now that Buffalo could be the origins of a political “butterfly effect,” regardless of the mayoral race outcome. A lot could depend on how the media (both corporate mainstream + independent leftist) chooses to cover (or ignore) it.

 

5. We’ve seen worker cooperatives have success in a variety of limited situations around the world and throughout history. I’m most familiar with ones currently existing in Spain, Italy, and France. The question is whether they can be scaled up to the national level and across all industries? I’m not a socialist, so my best guess would be “no” for probably the same reasons you have. However…I consider myself an open-minded person and so have yet to completely give up on market socialism models, either. I’d like to see one attempted without it being sabotaged from American imperialistic forces who want to exploit the foreign labor and foreign natural resources. Also, we’ve seen more than enough from variations of laissez-faire capitalism to know that it doesn’t work for the working class (or for the environment) and inevitably devolves into crony capitalism models (see: American history: Gilded Age, Great Depression, 1980-now).

 

On 9/6/2021 at 12:32 PM, Doc said:

Is 3. even material?  Why shouldn't Brown have his name on the ballot?

 

Because he missed the state’s ballot petition deadline. On electoral substance alone, I don’t even mind the judge’s ruling. What’s galling is that we all know Ms. Walton would have not been granted the same exception if the roles of her and Brown had been reversed.

[Doc]

53 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

Because he missed the state’s ballot petition deadline. On electoral substance alone, I don’t even mind the judge’s ruling. What’s galling is that we all know Ms. Walton would have not been granted the same exception if the roles of her and Brown had been reversed.

 

Why?  Because she's not connected like he is?  Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  But on the face of it, to have a May 28th deadline when the Dem primary is in June is dumb.

[snafu]

1 hour ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Thank you, snafu, for being the only one to directly address my questions in full.

 

1. Ms. Walton is a democratic socialist. Castro was a dictator who ruled as head of a command economy. The political and economic differences between the two systems are comically enormous.

 

2. You didn’t quite answer my question here. I acknowledge Ms. Walton’s socialist identity. But what are her specific public policies that distinguish her as a socialist and not as a typical liberal? I can only count two: neighborhood-owned grocery stores and support for a public bank. But as a city mayor, she has zero power to ever implement a New York state-owned bank. So is this what the McCarthyite fearmongering is reduced to…fear of better produce options for East Side denizens??

 

3. Sinatra’s brother is a major campaign donor to Byron Brown. We are not our siblings, but it still reeks of corruption. Also, the Buffalo Common Council consists entirely of establishment Democrats. Ms. Walton’s allies aren’t the ones suggesting that the mayor’s office be abolished! And I have never denied that the Democratic Party is horribly corrupt, though political corruption isn’t unique to a particular party or political philosophy.

 

4. In my opinion, this mayoral race will probably have a negligible impact on the national stage. American politics and the progressive movement, however, are so charged and unstable right now that Buffalo could be the origins of a political “butterfly effect,” regardless of the mayoral race outcome. A lot could depend on how the media (both corporate mainstream + independent leftist) chooses to cover (or ignore) it.

 

5. We’ve seen worker cooperatives have success in a variety of limited situations around the world and throughout history. I’m most familiar with ones currently existing in Spain, Italy, and France. The question is whether they can be scaled up to the national level and across all industries? I’m not a socialist, so my best guess would be “no” for probably the same reasons you have. However…I consider myself an open-minded person and so have yet to completely give up on market socialism models, either. I’d like to see one attempted without it being sabotaged from American imperialistic forces who want to exploit the foreign labor and foreign natural resources. Also, we’ve seen more than enough from variations of laissez-faire capitalism to know that it doesn’t work for the working class (or for the environment) and inevitably devolves into crony capitalism models (see: American history: Gilded Age, Great Depression, 1980-now).

 

 

Because he missed the state’s ballot petition deadline. On electoral substance alone, I don’t even mind the judge’s ruling. What’s galling is that we all know Ms. Walton would have not been granted the same exception if the roles of her and Brown had been reversed.

 

(1) Castro wasn't a dictator in 1950.  He was trying to get into the machine but the machine changed the rules.  Sound familiar?  He BECAME a dictator after he came into power in order to consolidate and retain his power.  The comparison isn't comically laughable -- it is the logical extension (or the execution of) what starts out to be laudable goals in theory.  It's  nice to have the lofty goals she lists in her website.  But when the policy needs to be implemented, the hand gets heavier and heavier.  You want a different comparison, let's go with Evo Morales, or any of the "pink tide" leftist leaders in South America.

 

(2) the closest I can see in her policy statements is WRT housing and canceling rent and holding landlords accountable because of her declaration that housing is a right.  Sure it is a right.  But if you don't OWN your housing, then you need to RENT your housing.  For money.  Or go live with your parents forever.  To take (or even to diminish) the property rights of one class of people in order to distribute the fruits of those rights to another class of people is pretty damn "command economy/socialist".  If she wants to limit herself to holding Landlords accountable for substandard living conditions, then yes, sure, whatever.  If she will eventually tell Landlords that they can't set the market -- which is the direction she's heading -- then what do you call it?  And, hey, why limit this to renters?  Why not have any single family homeowner paying a mortgage get their debt canceled?

 

(3) You're sounding like a January 6 conspiracist.  I think you and I agree on the sh***y nature of party electoral gameplay.

 

(4) Looks like we agree on my "time will tell" answer.

 

(5) Can't be scaled up.  If someone wants to live in a commune, then there's plenty of places to go.  That should be a personal election, not imposed upon people who don't choose to live collectively.  And I'd add that for India Walton to believe for a second that just because Byron Brown lost focus in the primary doesn't mean that she's got a mandate or ANY broad public support to implement her platform.  Her level of support, Citywide, from the potential constituents that she would be working for is miniscule.

 

[Doc Brown]

5 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

That’s a really good point.  She’d be laughed out of the room.
 

In a way though wouldn’t it be better for the progressive movement as a whole to show it can beat a more centrist candidate in a general election without the excuse of that person losing only because the centrist candidate’s name wasn’t on the ballot?

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

That’s a really good point.  She’d be laughed out of the room.
 

In a way though wouldn’t it be better for the progressive movement as a whole to show it can beat a more centrist candidate in a general election without the excuse of that person losing only because the centrist candidate’s name wasn’t on the ballot?

 

And not on the ballot because the deadline passed before the centrist faced-off against the marxist, and lost, weeks later?

[Doc Brown]

13 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

And not on the ballot because the deadline passed before the centrist faced-off against the marxist, and lost, weeks later?

The law seems silly on its face but Byron knew the law.  I have mixed feelings about it tbh.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

The law seems silly on its face but Byron knew the law.  I have mixed feelings about it tbh.

 

Unless he's psychic...

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Unless he's psychic...

I meant he should've taken the democratic primary a bit more seriously knowing he couldn't later file as an Independent.  The state basically created its own sore loser law.

[Buffalo716]

I see a good amount of write in Byron Brown signs around the city 

[Doc]

10 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I meant he should've taken the democratic primary a bit more seriously knowing he couldn't later file as an Independent.  The state basically created its own sore loser law.

 

I did not follow that situation at all so I don't know if him not taking it more seriously was the issue.  It just seems dumb to have the deadline before a candidate can be chose for either party (I'm assuming it's the same for Repubs) because no one knows who will win.  Did Walton register as another party before the deadline?

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 9/7/2021 at 5:04 PM, Doc said:

Why?  Because she's not connected like he is?  Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  But on the face of it, to have a May 28th deadline when the Dem primary is in June is dumb.

 

Yes, not being connected, which also ties directly into her political philosophy.

 

On 9/7/2021 at 5:50 PM, snafu said:

(1) Castro wasn't a dictator in 1950.  He was trying to get into the machine but the machine changed the rules.  Sound familiar?  He BECAME a dictator after he came into power in order to consolidate and retain his power.  The comparison isn't comically laughable -- it is the logical extension (or the execution of) what starts out to be laudable goals in theory.  It's  nice to have the lofty goals she lists in her website.  But when the policy needs to be implemented, the hand gets heavier and heavier.  You want a different comparison, let's go with Evo Morales, or any of the "pink tide" leftist leaders in South America.

 

(2) the closest I can see in her policy statements is WRT housing and canceling rent and holding landlords accountable because of her declaration that housing is a right.  Sure it is a right.  But if you don't OWN your housing, then you need to RENT your housing.  For money.  Or go live with your parents forever.  To take (or even to diminish) the property rights of one class of people in order to distribute the fruits of those rights to another class of people is pretty damn "command economy/socialist".  If she wants to limit herself to holding Landlords accountable for substandard living conditions, then yes, sure, whatever.  If she will eventually tell Landlords that they can't set the market -- which is the direction she's heading -- then what do you call it?  And, hey, why limit this to renters?  Why not have any single family homeowner paying a mortgage get their debt canceled?

 

(3) You're sounding like a January 6 conspiracist.  I think you and I agree on the sh***y nature of party electoral gameplay.

 

(4) Looks like we agree on my "time will tell" answer.

 

(5) Can't be scaled up.  If someone wants to live in a commune, then there's plenty of places to go.  That should be a personal election, not imposed upon people who don't choose to live collectively.  And I'd add that for India Walton to believe for a second that just because Byron Brown lost focus in the primary doesn't mean that she's got a mandate or ANY broad public support to implement her platform.  Her level of support, Citywide, from the potential constituents that she would be working for is miniscule.

 

1. This is getting silly. Fidel Castro, like authoritarian leaders from all political orientations throughout recorded history, demonstrated serious anti-social behavior and a propensity for criminal violence years before obtaining power. India Walton has no such background. Furthermore, Castro had the power of the military to enforce his policies. A Buffalo mayor will not. Any attempt to prove that democratic socialism inevitably leads to far-left authoritarianism falls apart when Latin American politics are invoked. You simply CANNOT decouple their politics from the influence of American imperialism or from a whole list of other cultural, geographic, and economic factors (including Chinese mercantilism!). The common themes of violence and corruption in Latin American government transcend the left-right paradigm. For every Evo Morales mentioned, I can counter with a Pinochet. A lot of the pink tide politicians did great things, too, along with some less than great things. I think I’ll take a Lula any day over the social democrat lineup we have in American politics…

 

2. The argument in favor of public housing options is as much the position of a typical American liberal as it is that of a socialist. That has been my point. The unique “cancel rent” movement is in the context of COVID-19, where the government forced people to not be able to work. Consequently, the government should have been fully responsible for financially compensating the people for not working. Landlords and homeowners definitely SHOULD have the same pandemic protections as tenants. Otherwise, banks and super wealthy people can just come in and buy up all the financially delinquent properties. And of course that was the desired outcome all along, but I digress… Also, I have no problem with rent control measures in certain scenarios, but that’s yet another topic that I don’t want to get into right now…

 

3. I’m not a January 6 conspiracist. Trump’s argument was blown out in the courts. For the time being, that is good enough evidence for me.

 

4. Yes, we do.

 

5. You’re talking about communes now, while I’m focused specifically on worker cooperatives i.e. different ways individual businesses can organize their leadership and ownership structures. Otherwise, we’re not really in disagreement here. In the unlikely event India Walton wins, I agree that she wouldn’t have a mandate for massive socialism impositions. You are engaging in McCarthyite fearmongering here, however, because the office of the mayor is quite limited in the extent that business systems can be imposed whereby “workers own the means of production.”

 

On 9/7/2021 at 9:47 PM, Doc Brown said:

That’s a really good point.  She’d be laughed out of the room.
 

In a way though wouldn’t it be better for the progressive movement as a whole to show it can beat a more centrist candidate in a general election without the excuse of that person losing only because the centrist candidate’s name wasn’t on the ballot?

 

Sure, of course. But a more interesting question: is it better to win with an asterisk** or lose with grace? To me, that answer depends heavily on India Walton’s (currently unknown) level of professional competence.

 

**- insert Bill Belichick joke here.

[Doc]

46 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

Yes, not being connected, which also ties directly into her political philosophy.

 

And if she were to become mayor, she wouldn't use connections?  Right.

[snafu]

2 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Yes, not being connected, which also ties directly into her political philosophy.

 

 

1. This is getting silly. Fidel Castro, like authoritarian leaders from all political orientations throughout recorded history, demonstrated serious anti-social behavior and a propensity for criminal violence years before obtaining power. India Walton has no such background. Furthermore, Castro had the power of the military to enforce his policies. A Buffalo mayor will not. Any attempt to prove that democratic socialism inevitably leads to far-left authoritarianism falls apart when Latin American politics are invoked. You simply CANNOT decouple their politics from the influence of American imperialism or from a whole list of other cultural, geographic, and economic factors (including Chinese mercantilism!). The common themes of violence and corruption in Latin American government transcend the left-right paradigm. For every Evo Morales mentioned, I can counter with a Pinochet. A lot of the pink tide politicians did great things, too, along with some less than great things. I think I’ll take a Lula any day over the social democrat lineup we have in American politics…

 

2. The argument in favor of public housing options is as much the position of a typical American liberal as it is that of a socialist. That has been my point. The unique “cancel rent” movement is in the context of COVID-19, where the government forced people to not be able to work. Consequently, the government should have been fully responsible for financially compensating the people for not working. Landlords and homeowners definitely SHOULD have the same pandemic protections as tenants. Otherwise, banks and super wealthy people can just come in and buy up all the financially delinquent properties. And of course that was the desired outcome all along, but I digress… Also, I have no problem with rent control measures in certain scenarios, but that’s yet another topic that I don’t want to get into right now…

 

3. I’m not a January 6 conspiracist. Trump’s argument was blown out in the courts. For the time being, that is good enough evidence for me.

 

4. Yes, we do.

 

5. You’re talking about communes now, while I’m focused specifically on worker cooperatives i.e. different ways individual businesses can organize their leadership and ownership structures. Otherwise, we’re not really in disagreement here. In the unlikely event India Walton wins, I agree that she wouldn’t have a mandate for massive socialism impositions. You are engaging in McCarthyite fearmongering here, however, because the office of the mayor is quite limited in the extent that business systems can be imposed whereby “workers own the means of production.”

 

 

Sure, of course. But a more interesting question: is it better to win with an asterisk** or lose with grace? To me, that answer depends heavily on India Walton’s (currently unknown) level of professional competence.

 

**- insert Bill Belichick joke here.

1. Castro is just as much a logical extension as any other long-term Marxist leader. People lose their freedoms. And please don’t ask for suggestions just to qualify any suggestion made with excuses like American Imperialism — especially in South America where American influence barely exists over the decades that include the Pink Tide years.  I never implied that India Walton was going to start a military uprising.  I said that one a Socialist come in then the manner of implementing policies becomes necessarily more and more draconian.  Why have a dialogue if you’re going to focus on Castro’s violence.  You asked for a specific time period.  I specifically said Castro in his earliest of years — before any revolution or violence followed.  Everyone starts small, Kay.  Then when you didn’t like that example, I switched to Evo Morales.  You said he “did some good things”. Well there’s a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one. And then you trotted out Military Dictator, Pinochet. 
 

2. Public housing is an available option.  I never said to abolish it.  Again, you asked for an example.  Public housing should be improved to the point where the government has enough credibility to tell any private property owner what to do or how to set a market.  You didn’t address the mayoral candidate’s desired result of altering a free market other than to peripherally say that you support rent control.  You asked for an example of a socialist policy and I gave you one.  There’s a whole entire ton of housing topics and you stretched the conversation to touch on some of them. But you avoided this one. 

3. I didn’t call you a 1/6 conspiracist.  I was just pointing out the similarities in the 2020 election to this here mayoral race.  You were grinding your gears about the tricks being played, and I was agreeing with you.  Others think there was some shady stuff that happened in 2020 — and they sound a lot like you.  You say the Federal Court decision is probably tainted by a judge who had a preferred outcome, and then hide behind courts to defend the 2020 results.  For the record, I believe that Trump lost all on his own. 
 

4. That’s nice.

 

5. If workers want to privately collect themselves to run a business or a million businesses, then that’s great.  Why should the government be involved? We were talking and actually agreeing that Socialism can not be scaled up to fit any large model.  And, Kay, I’m not engaging in fearmongering here. And since we primarily agree on this point, if I’m fearmongering then where does that leave you?  You would not have asked Q:4 if you didn’t have a notion that any small city success will be used as a catalyst for the growth of your preferred political governing style.  Why else would all the national news have reported on this but to hold Buffalo up as the example of a city that supports a Socialist — when it really looks like that’s nowhere near the truth.  I’m not fearmongering, I just don’t agree with this governing theory and I’m trying to point out my reasons why.

Kay, it looks like we primarily agree on 3 of 5 of your questions.  You haven’t acknowledged my Q:2 policy example yet, and we seem to disagree on your Q:1.  Not bad!

 

 

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, snafu said:

1. Castro is just as much a logical extension as any other long-term Marxist leader. People lose their freedoms. And please don’t ask for suggestions just to qualify any suggestion made with excuses like American Imperialism — especially in South America where American influence barely exists over the decades that include the Pink Tide years.  I never implied that India Walton was going to start a military uprising.  I said that one a Socialist come in then the manner of implementing policies becomes necessarily more and more draconian.  Why have a dialogue if you’re going to focus on Castro’s violence.  You asked for a specific time period.  I specifically said Castro in his earliest of years — before any revolution or violence followed.  Everyone starts small, Kay.  Then when you didn’t like that example, I switched to Evo Morales.  You said he “did some good things”. Well there’s a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one. And then you trotted out Military Dictator, Pinochet. 
 

2. Public housing is an available option.  I never said to abolish it.  Again, you asked for an example.  Public housing should be improved to the point where the government has enough credibility to tell any private property owner what to do or how to set a market.  You didn’t address the mayoral candidate’s desired result of altering a free market other than to peripherally say that you support rent control.  You asked for an example of a socialist policy and I gave you one.  There’s a whole entire ton of housing topics and you stretched the conversation to touch on some of them. But you avoided this one. 

3. I didn’t call you a 1/6 conspiracist.  I was just pointing out the similarities in the 2020 election to this here mayoral race.  You were grinding your gears about the tricks being played, and I was agreeing with you.  Others think there was some shady stuff that happened in 2020 — and they sound a lot like you.  You say the Federal Court decision is probably tainted by a judge who had a preferred outcome, and then hide behind courts to defend the 2020 results.  For the record, I believe that Trump lost all on his own. 
 

4. That’s nice.

 

5. If workers want to privately collect themselves to run a business or a million businesses, then that’s great.  Why should the government be involved? We were talking and actually agreeing that Socialism can not be scaled up to fit any large model.  And, Kay, I’m not engaging in fearmongering here. And since we primarily agree on this point, if I’m fearmongering then where does that leave you?  You would not have asked Q:4 if you didn’t have a notion that any small city success will be used as a catalyst for the growth of your preferred political governing style.  Why else would all the national news have reported on this but to hold Buffalo up as the example of a city that supports a Socialist — when it really looks like that’s nowhere near the truth.  I’m not fearmongering, I just don’t agree with this governing theory and I’m trying to point out my reasons why.

Kay, it looks like we primarily agree on 3 of 5 of your questions.  You haven’t acknowledged my Q:2 policy example yet, and we seem to disagree on your Q:1.  Not bad!

 

 

That's silly. Heck, the "Marxists" were not even following Marx, they really followed the authoritarian leaders they replaced. Democracy is here to stay and just because someone calls themselves socialist here in no way means they will be like Communist Russia 

 

Now the racists on the other hand. Look at the damage they have done! 

[ComradeKayAdams]

3 hours ago, snafu said:

1. Castro is just as much a logical extension as any other long-term Marxist leader. People lose their freedoms. And please don’t ask for suggestions just to qualify any suggestion made with excuses like American Imperialism — especially in South America where American influence barely exists over the decades that include the Pink Tide years.  I never implied that India Walton was going to start a military uprising.  I said that one a Socialist come in then the manner of implementing policies becomes necessarily more and more draconian.  Why have a dialogue if you’re going to focus on Castro’s violence.  You asked for a specific time period.  I specifically said Castro in his earliest of years — before any revolution or violence followed.  Everyone starts small, Kay.  Then when you didn’t like that example, I switched to Evo Morales.  You said he “did some good things”. Well there’s a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one. And then you trotted out Military Dictator, Pinochet. 
 

2. Public housing is an available option.  I never said to abolish it.  Again, you asked for an example.  Public housing should be improved to the point where the government has enough credibility to tell any private property owner what to do or how to set a market.  You didn’t address the mayoral candidate’s desired result of altering a free market other than to peripherally say that you support rent control.  You asked for an example of a socialist policy and I gave you one.  There’s a whole entire ton of housing topics and you stretched the conversation to touch on some of them. But you avoided this one. 

3. I didn’t call you a 1/6 conspiracist.  I was just pointing out the similarities in the 2020 election to this here mayoral race.  You were grinding your gears about the tricks being played, and I was agreeing with you.  Others think there was some shady stuff that happened in 2020 — and they sound a lot like you.  You say the Federal Court decision is probably tainted by a judge who had a preferred outcome, and then hide behind courts to defend the 2020 results.  For the record, I believe that Trump lost all on his own. 
 

4. That’s nice.

 

5. If workers want to privately collect themselves to run a business or a million businesses, then that’s great.  Why should the government be involved? We were talking and actually agreeing that Socialism can not be scaled up to fit any large model.  And, Kay, I’m not engaging in fearmongering here. And since we primarily agree on this point, if I’m fearmongering then where does that leave you?  You would not have asked Q:4 if you didn’t have a notion that any small city success will be used as a catalyst for the growth of your preferred political governing style.  Why else would all the national news have reported on this but to hold Buffalo up as the example of a city that supports a Socialist — when it really looks like that’s nowhere near the truth.  I’m not fearmongering, I just don’t agree with this governing theory and I’m trying to point out my reasons why.

Kay, it looks like we primarily agree on 3 of 5 of your questions.  You haven’t acknowledged my Q:2 policy example yet, and we seem to disagree on your Q:1.  Not bad!

 

1. Oh, American imperialism was very much an ever-present force during the Pink Tide! We can do a full country-by-country breakdown if you’d like lol. Here at PPP, I’ve already done it for Cuba and Venezuela. It may have receded relative to the second half of the twentieth century, but the LEGACY of American imperialism in Latin America persisted too and is what catalyzed all the internal revolutions against neoliberalism. Plus, Chinese mercantilism came in to fill whatever imperialist void the United States left. The theme of Latin American politics is that corruption, violence, and authoritarianism exist on both the socialist left and the U.S.-sponsored neoliberal right. Why do Latin American socialists tend to get violent? Maybe for the reasons you cite. Maybe also because violence is the only remaining power that the poor have when they have no other resources and are up against U.S.-backed corporate oligarchs funded to undermine their democratic elections. There are no good actors in this political play. You can’t extract honest lessons on socialism governance from the rest of the mess that is Latin American politics. Sorry, but you just can’t (in my opinion).

 

2. All I’m saying is that India Walton’s public housing policies aren’t DISTINCTLY socialist. American liberalism routinely allows for government interventions into free market forces that guide landlord-tenant relationships. Now is that a good thing? Sort of…I apologize for not wanting to jump into what would be a long economics debate right now lol, that’s all. If you’re specifically referring to the extended COVID-19 “cancel rent” policy, then yes we agree that it is a bad one because it’s one-sided. A good policy would incorporate equal protections to both prevent mass homelessness and protect the landlords who are victims too. Without any such government interventions, landlords can kick out all the freeloading squatters but then what is the market demand status of their replacements?? Basically, I just disagree that a generalized, non-pandemic-related “cancel rent” policy whereby landlords are ordinarily forced to allow tenants to live in their houses for free is a part of democratic socialism. DSA types believe in options for housing co-ops, more aggressive rent controls, strengthened tenant rights, things of that nature…which often have a lot of overlap with what more establishment Democrats espouse.

 

3. It’s a difference of scale, spotlight, and circumstances. Do I think Judge Sinatra was compromised? I don’t know. I have no proof and I don’t even necessarily disagree with his ruling. I’m mostly just pointing out an appearance of impropriety that would have generated much more of a media uproar if the roles were reversed. An awful lot of highly coordinated corruption would have had to occur in order to take down Trump last November. Maybe it did, but significant claims require significant evidence.

 

4. Yes, it is indeed quite lovely, isn’t it?

 

5. This ties in with point #1 above. You seem very confident that democratic socialism eventually leads to far-left authoritarianism, based heavily on Latin American politics. I’m MUCH less confident on that point, but you can have the “argument win” if you’d like! My main problem is with the people who argue that European-style social democracy eventually leads to far-left authoritarianism…people who argue that universal health care is a slippery slope to the gulags. PLEASE tell me you aren’t one of those types. I’m already so triggered thinking about you typing “yes, Kay, in fact I am.” I’m supposed to be working on a report at work today, and now I can’t focus because of all the emotional turbulence you have induced in me hehehe…

 

EDIT: Corrected a couple spelling mistakes.

Edited September 9, 2021 by ComradeKayAdams

[snafu]

3 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

My main problem is with the people who argue that European-style social democracy eventually leads to far-left authoritarianism…people who argue that universal health care is a slippery slope to the gulags. PLEASE tell me you aren’t one of those types. I’m already so triggered thinking about you typing “yes, Kay, in fact I am.” I’m supposed to be working on a report at work today, and now I can’t focus because of all the emotional turbulence you have induced in me hehehe…

 

Nah, that's not me.

 

 

[Wacka]

She's a commie.

[Buffarukus]

On 9/7/2021 at 12:38 AM, Doc Brown said:

Buffalo isn't NYC and you're talking pure hypotheticals.  We've gained in population over the last decade.  We weren't the epicenter of the initial Covid outbreak in the US.  The Covid restrictions put in place and currently in place here don't differ much from most of the country.  Same goes for vaccine mandates from employers.  Teachers aren't required to be vaccinated.  You also seem to be in your own bubble on how you view the public at large.  Public opinion is pretty split on whether the government is doing too much, the right amount, or too little when it comes to handling Covid.

 

Quote

i specifically said NYC. buffalo is a part of the state. with a flick of the wrist the govenor can make it statewide and mandates have been in descussions federally for a long time. this deep into the pandemic and you think if mandates arent happening right here and now that cannot quickly change. buffalo will not be ordered to adopt a sudo lockdown for the unvaxed that NYC has? 

 

that didnt take long. 

[Doc Brown]

32 minutes ago, Buffarukus said:

that didnt take long. 

Show me where I said it can't quickly change?  Find another straw man. 

 

 

 

 

[Buffarukus]

47 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Show me where I said it can't quickly change?  Find another straw man. 

 

 

 

 

 

straw man? you were saying thats there, not here. me suggesting it could quickly change was "hypotheticals". hypotheticals that instantly became closer to reality.

 

whatever that wasn't the basis of the topic just a side point but i think its about time people understand that there will be nothing about going back to "normal" to get comfortable with. you seem to suggest if its not here then its not worth talking about. is it ok to say they are already identifying variants and suggesting it is vax resistant. just as quickly this can be full blown lockdown again and maybe far worse. people already conditioned to blame the "unvaxed" can be the scapegoats to why vaxes no longer work

 

this isnt a i win the debate. its a wow that was fast and we better get prepared if it goes further just as quickly.

 

dont be so defensive.

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Buffarukus

[Buffalo716]

Write Down Byron Brown!

[SectionC3]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:34 AM, Doc said:

 

I did not follow that situation at all so I don't know if him not taking it more seriously was the issue.  It just seems dumb to have the deadline before a candidate can be chose for either party (I'm assuming it's the same for Repubs) because no one knows who will win.  Did Walton register as another party before the deadline?

 

Nope.  Otherwise she wouldn’t have been able to run in the Democratic primary. (Absent help from the county committee, which never would have materialized.)

[Buffalo716]

To aid in the write in... Byron Browns campaign has purchased 10000+ stamps with his name on it ... And handed them out to supporters so you can stamp in his name  

 

Terribly spelled named will not be accepted

[B-Man]

27 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

To aid in the write in... Byron Browns campaign has purchased 10000+ stamps with his name on it ... And handed them out to supporters so you can stamp in his name  

 

Terribly spelled named will not be accepted

 

If you can't spell Byron Brown you shouldn't be allowed to vote.......

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

If you can't spell Byron Brown you shouldn't be allowed to vote.......

This is the inner city of Buffalo we're talking about

 

Probably alot of Birons on the ballot... Hope they allow that 😝