machine gun kelly Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 It’s the last chance saloon for Wentz with the Colts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 If the Colts can now get Nick Foles from Chicago they may really have something special in the making 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 Cannot believe the Eagles got a 3rd this year and a conditional 2nd that could be a 1st next year for a guy who lacks leadership, played terrible, has shot mechanics, takes tons of sacks and also has the worst contract in football. The Colts should have demanded the Eagles first round pick just for taking him off their hands ala the Brock Osweiler trade. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 46 minutes ago, Big Turk said: Cannot believe the Eagles got a 3rd this year and a conditional 2nd that could be a 1st next year for a guy who lacks leadership, played terrible, has shot mechanics, takes tons of sacks and also has the worst contract in football. The Colts should have demanded the Eagles first round pick just for taking him off their hands ala the Brock Osweiler trade. This is kind of where I am. Look if Reich can revive him maybe it looks like a good deal in a year's time, maybe. But I'm thinking about it like a draft prospect at this point. Where is Carson Wentz's ceiling at this stage? Is it the guy who was in MVP contention before the ACL in 2017? If that is the ceiling is that worth a first and a third? Yep. But where is Carson Wentz's floor at this stage? I think his floor is the guy who frankly was the worst starter in the league and played more like a middling backup in 2020. Forget the surrounding cast. Yes Philly's line was decimated with injury and his receivers were not good, but even on plays where the line blocked and guys uncovered Wentz was awful. That is a guy who you flip a 6th round pick for. So to me the 1st and the 3rd is only value if you get the ceiling. Even a 2nd and a 3rd is a huge overpay unless he is close to that ceiling. If you get close to the floor then it is a major whiff by the Colts. And this is not a Bills fan trying to talk down a potential opponent. If the Bills were without a QB and had made this trade I'd be trashing them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 3 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Agreed. By the time he was benched in Philly he was a completely broken Quarterback. His footwork has become absolutely atrocious, his decision making was disgusting and he had they yips when it came to actually getting the ball out. This isn't just a case of stick him behind a good line (albeit one that just lost its left tackle) and hey presto. This is a guy who needs rebuilding from the ground up. Confidence, fundamentals, technique, how to play the position. I'd like a penny for Chris Ballard's thoughts on this. I sense this is a situation where he has just said "okay Frank I trust you". Because a guy as talented in evaluating talent as Ballard can't possibly have looked at the tape and thought "this was just a bad situation in Philly." He has to no be the worst Quarterback in football which he was in 2020. Even when he has time in the pocket he holds the ball for a fortnight, has to prepare his arm three time before he can actually force the ball out and ends up chucking it down the field when he has 3 open guys underneath. I really do not think people are grasping how big of a job this is for Reich. Wentz is fundamentally broken. This feels like your 2021 Justin Jefferson. I watched more Eagles games than I’d like to admit. I’m sure Ballard would say the same thing. The Eagles entire offense was a disaster. Those guys couldn’t get off the LOS. They couldn’t block. Wentz broke down. I’m not a huge Wentz guy, never was, I think he can play at the level of the tenth or so best at his position. Colts didn’t give up much, I bet both are estatic and focused on surrounding him with a few more weapons on the outside. The rest of that team is solid. This was a very good transition for the Colts. Frank and Ballard have done a great job and I will trust them here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 4 minutes ago, CommonCents said: This feels like your 2021 Justin Jefferson. I watched more Eagles games than I’d like to admit. I’m sure Ballard would say the same thing. The Eagles entire offense was a disaster. Those guys couldn’t get off the LOS. They couldn’t block. Wentz broke down. I’m not a huge Wentz guy, never was, I think he can play at the level of the tenth or so best at his position. Colts didn’t give up much, I bet both are estatic and focused on surrounding him with a few more weapons on the outside. The rest of that team is solid. This was a very good transition for the Colts. Frank and Ballard have done a great job and I will trust them here. To the bolded - Ha. Maybe. Although I do want it on record that I never said Jefferson was bad. I said he was good. I just didn't think he could play outside, I thought he was a slot only guy. But hands up he has proven me wrong about that. I have watched every Eagles game this season, and I watched the all 22 of a handful of them as well. There were dozens of plays every game that were just on Wentz. It is not as simple as just plug him into a different offense with better talent and press go. It really isn't. He needs fundamentally rebuilding. I like Reich and Ballard a lot too. If you were picking GM-HC combos around the league to go forward with the next 5 years they are in the top 5 IMO. They deserve some trust. But man Wentz is a shot in the dark. There is so much there that you have to address, starting with his shattered psyche, then with rebuilding his fundamentals. His footwork last year was 🤢. And then his decision making... which was always an area that needed developing even when he was playing well. He was the worst QB in the league in 2020. I can't think of any other year where the worst starting QB in the NFL one season fetched a 2nd and 3rd round pick after that season. I know Wentz's situation is a little unique but I think people can't forget that 2017 season and so are overvaluing that compared to the slow regression that has happened since. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: To the bolded - Ha. Maybe. Although I do want it on record that I never said Jefferson was bad. I said he was good. I just didn't think he could play outside, I thought he was a slot only guy. But hands up he has proven me wrong about that. I have watched every Eagles game this season, and I watched the all 22 of a handful of them as well. There were dozens of plays every game that were just on Wentz. It is not as simple as just plug him into a different offense with better talent and press go. It really isn't. He needs fundamentally rebuilding. I like Reich and Ballard a lot too. If you were picking GM-HC combos around the league to go forward with the next 5 years they are in the top 5 IMO. They deserve some trust. But man Wentz is a shot in the dark. There is so much there that you have to address, starting with his shattered psyche, then with rebuilding his fundamentals. His footwork last year was 🤢. And then his decision making... which was always an area that needed developing even when he was playing well. He was the worst QB in the league in 2020. I can't think of any other year where the worst starting QB in the NFL one season fetched a 2nd and 3rd round pick after that season. I know Wentz's situation is a little unique but I think people can't forget that 2017 season and so are overvaluing that compared to the slow regression that has happened since. A lot of your stuff is the same way I felt watching Wentz. He totally melted down and should have been spared sooner. Reich has been around the guy and with the way him and Ballard are running I’m trusting them on this one. I see it as low low risk high reward. What could have been a better transition from Phillip retiring? Out of all the options, this was pretty good for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 15 minutes ago, CommonCents said: A lot of your stuff is the same way I felt watching Wentz. He totally melted down and should have been spared sooner. Reich has been around the guy and with the way him and Ballard are running I’m trusting them on this one. I see it as low low risk high reward. What could have been a better transition from Phillip retiring? Out of all the options, this was pretty good for them. Put Matt Stafford on that team and I'd have had them right in the mix with Buffalo and KC in the AFC. I get trusting Ballard and Reich, I do. I don't agree it is low, low risk with a high reward. I think the price they have paid makes it a medium-high risk and high reward. Like I say the floor is a guy who isn't their starter by the end of 2021. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Put Matt Stafford on that team and I'd have had them right in the mix with Buffalo and KC in the AFC. I get trusting Ballard and Reich, I do. I don't agree it is low, low risk with a high reward. I think the price they have paid makes it a medium-high risk and high reward. Like I say the floor is a guy who isn't their starter by the end of 2021. Stafford would have cost a lot more, he is a better player as of now but his body is beat it’s a slow decline from here. If they had Stafford they don’t have their first rounder. They should follow the blue print of the Bills. Trade that first rounder for Kenny Golladay if he is fully healthy, then they are really cooking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 6 minutes ago, CommonCents said: Stafford would have cost a lot more, he is a better player as of now but his body is beat it’s a slow decline from here. If they had Stafford they don’t have their first rounder. They should follow the blue print of the Bills. Trade that first rounder for Kenny Golladay if he is fully healthy, then they are really cooking. Golladay is a FA (although the Lions could tag him, not sure they will). I just think I'd rather not have two first rounders but have Stafford than not have a 3rd this year and a 2nd next and have a guy who I am gambling on being able to revive. And the Colts also traded their 1st rounder for an established player at their biggest need last year in Buckner and it worked out for them too. That is definitely becoming more of a trend. Teams are willing to throw in their 1st for vets so long as they are mid 20s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 So looking back at that draft this now has BOTH Wentz and Goff, the top two picks, one from a small school and one from a major conference, on the move in the same offseason just a few years later. I’ve got to admit that I didn’t see that coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeHateMe Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 I know Wentz was terrible last year but people are kind of writing him off a little quick. The Eagles were a tire fire the past 2 years and Wentz carried them in 2019 to the playoffs. 2020 was a disaster all the way around with the injuries and Wentz just looked horrible as well. His decision making just seemed atrocious so I'm thinking he was just trying to do too much and he had little help... Riech is a great coach and Wentz played his best under him. Wouldn't surprise me to see Wentz have a pretty big year again. Great Oline, Great RB, Top notch coaching.. he will be very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: So looking back at that draft this now has BOTH Wentz and Goff, the top two picks, one from a small school and one from a major conference, on the move in the same offseason just a few years later. I’ve got to admit that I didn’t see that coming. Mahomes and Watson changed the NFL. Crazy that those 2 weren’t selected until the 10th and 12th picks. NFL has changed drastically in the last 3-4 years. All about dynamic traits at the QB position now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said: Mahomes and Watson changed the NFL. Crazy that those 2 weren’t selected until the 10th and 12th picks. NFL has changed drastically in the last 3-4 years. All about dynamic traits at the QB position now. And Allen and Jackson the year after..... feels like in future being a middle of the league traditional pocket passer - someone like Jared Goff for instance - might be considered less valuable than a Lamar type who is a less polished passer but has an elite trait. It is more than ever the first question that people are asking of a QB "where is the special?" and if the answer is "well there isn't any but he is a good all rounder" say a Matt Ryan in the past or an Eli Manning teams are looking at that and saying "well I need more." Edited February 19, 2021 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: And Allen and Jackson the year after..... feels like in future being a middle of the league traditional pocket passer - someone like Jared Goff for instance - might be considered less valuable than a Lamar type who is a less polished passer but has an elite trait. It is more than ever the first question that people are asking of a QB "where is the special?" and if the answer is "well there isn't any but he is a good all rounder" say a Matt Ryan in the past or an Eli Manning teams are looking at that and saying "well I need more." If the Bills had a choice, and a competent running game, they’d definitely prefer Allen to be more of a pocket passer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 21 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Same. They were two of the worst 5 starters in the league in 2020 but Wentz looks by far the more fundamentally broken to me. He has the equivalent of a golfer with the yips. Maybe a change of scenery and a reunion with Reich can revive him, but honestly, I'm sceptical. Here is one of my bold predictions for next season very early.... by Thanksgiving Wentz is not the starter. 5 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Agreed. By the time he was benched in Philly he was a completely broken Quarterback. His footwork has become absolutely atrocious, his decision making was disgusting and he had they yips when it came to actually getting the ball out. I think people overuse this word "yips". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: If the Bills had a choice, and a competent running game, they’d definitely prefer Allen to be more of a pocket passer. Yeah, because he’s got an All World arm and has the arm strength to throw the ball all over the field. Goff doesn’t have that. At 43, Brady wins because he can still make all the throws and but mostly because he’s a once in a century team leader at the QB position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think people overuse this word "yips". Ha maybe, but is the only way I know how to describe what happened to Wentz's release. It was like he had to ready his arm (I want to use a word beginning with c that is banned because it is rude in other contexts) and pump twice before the hand will let go of the ball. There is definitely something going on there IMO. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: This is kind of where I am. Look if Reich can revive him maybe it looks like a good deal in a year's time, maybe. But I'm thinking about it like a draft prospect at this point. Where is Carson Wentz's ceiling at this stage? Is it the guy who was in MVP contention before the ACL in 2017? If that is the ceiling is that worth a first and a third? Yep. But where is Carson Wentz's floor at this stage? I think his floor is the guy who frankly was the worst starter in the league and played more like a middling backup in 2020. Forget the surrounding cast. Yes Philly's line was decimated with injury and his receivers were not good, but even on plays where the line blocked and guys uncovered Wentz was awful. That is a guy who you flip a 6th round pick for. So to me the 1st and the 3rd is only value if you get the ceiling. Even a 2nd and a 3rd is a huge overpay unless he is close to that ceiling. If you get close to the floor then it is a major whiff by the Colts. And this is not a Bills fan trying to talk down a potential opponent. If the Bills were without a QB and had made this trade I'd be trashing them. It’s a third and a second/first. Honestly, what QB this year has Carson Wentz’ ceiling in the third round? The Colts are a playoff team. They aren’t picking top 10 next year unless they really fall apart. They are taking a shot on a player who was a star under their HC. But they have no choice but to take shots at this stage of the game. Edited February 19, 2021 by FireChans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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