Reading the tea leaves. (Mostly Oline related)

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, Billy Claude said:

 

Did he actually say this?   Usually Beane is not that blunt -- especially with regard to a fairly high draft pick.

 

It goes without saying..

[RoyBatty is alive]

11 hours ago, Billy Claude said:

 

Did he actually say this?   Usually Beane is not that blunt -- especially with regard to a fairly high draft pick.

No he did not, that is just want some fans wanted him to say.

[Patrick Duffy]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If you have a link would love to watch this. 

 

But I have been saying all year it is a mix of poor run blocking AND running backs who are slow to accelerate and hit the hole. That combination has been the problem. 

 

It isn't just the running backs, but it isn't just the line either. 

 

My conclusion is I'd rather not mess too much with a line that Kansas City games apart had a really nice year in pass pro. I don't want to sacrifice pass game production for run game production and so while I totally agree that the reasons for the struggle are shared the more palatable solution in my mind is more speed at running back so that those holes are being hit more quickly. Equally though I don't want to spend big resources on it. The Bills should be looking for a diamond in the rough speed back IMO. 

Yup, that's pretty much it. DS is a solid back. Impressive when he makes people miss and breaks some ankles. Just need a speedy RB that catches the ball well to go with him though. 

 

And yes, OL needs it's adjustments, or maybe a change of scheme. But yes, it's definitely both RB and OL/scheme that's the issue. 

[JMF2006]

4 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

At RB you are all forgetting we have that cricket player dude from Scotland.  He will have three camps underneath his belt by next season.  I think the line will be a big part early in the draft.  

 

Rugby/Cricket....whats the difference?  

[billykay]

3 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

I've said for as few weeks it is time to cut Morse. This is what I would like to see:

Bring back Feliciano to play C; Ford starts at Guard; bring back Williams at RT;trade out of 30 into first part of the second round picking up an extra third round pick; draft true center, edge, TE, and MLB with their first four picks; and lastly move Edmunds to OLB

Agree with all of this post. We could also use a space eater D lineman.

[Patrick Duffy]

3 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

I've said for as few weeks it is time to cut Morse. This is what I would like to see:

Bring back Feliciano to play C; Ford starts at Guard; bring back Williams at RT;trade out of 30 into first part of the second round picking up an extra third round pick; draft true center, edge, TE, and MLB with their first four picks; and lastly move Edmunds to OLB

Yeah he stated something along the lines of C was his favorite position or he liked it the most. Something of that sort if I remember correctly. He's pretty damn good at C too. I think that game he was C the run game was a lot better also. I mean it was a pretty noticeable difference too

[Pags24]

Need improvements in all categories of OL (run blocking especially), RB and TE.  What about Ryan Bates getting more of an opportunity at guard?  One of the main reasons we traded Wyatt Teller was Bates had an excellent camp and we were re-tooling.  Give Bates more consistent PT, I think he could be a solid guard.  Also, Yeldon should've seen more use all year.  Watching him in the TEN game I thought for sure our coaches would use him more.  I know he's not great in blitz pickup and I'm guessing that's why he wasn't used.....but he was our best RB for early down run plays.  Has size, hits the whole really quick.  Had a bit of a fumble issue when he first came to BUF in '19, but seemed to clean that up.  He's also a very good pass-catching back.

 

 

 

[Allen2Moulds]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

No he did not, that is just want some fans wanted him to say.

Here's a copy of Beanes quote below. Read it however you want to, but it seems clear enough to me that this is a top positional need. He didn't defend it like he did with the RBs. There was no excuse for scheme or anything else.

 

(Beane's quote regarding TE production)

"It was never where the opposing defense was like, ‘Man we’ve really got to stop their tight ends from going off,' " Beane said

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 hour ago, Pags24 said:

Need improvements in all categories of OL (run blocking especially), RB and TE.  What about Ryan Bates getting more of an opportunity at guard?  One of the main reasons we traded Wyatt Teller was Bates had an excellent camp and we were re-tooling.  Give Bates more consistent PT, I think he could be a solid guard.  Also, Yeldon should've seen more use all year.  Watching him in the TEN game I thought for sure our coaches would use him more.  I know he's not great in blitz pickup and I'm guessing that's why he wasn't used.....but he was our best RB for early down run plays.  Has size, hits the whole really quick.  Had a bit of a fumble issue when he first came to BUF in '19, but seemed to clean that up.  He's also a very good pass-catching back.

 

 

 

 

Yes probably the biggest  mistake on personnel this year.

 

The blunder leading up to Wyatt being traded was Quinton Spain, what a  colossal bust for the Bills.  Picked him up for three years and $15 million and in seven months he was cut.  I thought we got Bates because he was versatile and could add some weight.  I always wanted to see more of Bates.  They need to decide if he is a guard or tackle and i think he actually had a few snaps at center.  

[CSBill]

Bates! Bates! Bates! . . . He’ll be part of the line solution going forward. He is one of the reasons that Morse is Cap Space expendable. 

[YoloinOhio]

6 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

No he did not, that is just want some fans wanted him to say.

He absolutely put the TEs on blast 

 

One position the Bills may look to improve through the draft is tight end, which Beane spoke about on Wednesday. He referred to the seasons put together by Dawson Knox and Tyler Kroft as ‘up and down’.

“We just never got that position - at the end of the year, I thought we did a little bit, Dawson started getting in his groove - but it was never where I felt the opposing defense was like ‘Man, we’ve got to stop their tight ends from going off,’” said Beane. “At the end of the day, we’d love to have a guy like we just faced in (Chiefs’ TE Travis Kelce). They don’t come very often, but that’s what you want.”

https://www.thedailynewsonline.com/sports/bills-gm-beane-discusses-falling-salary-cap-upcoming-draft-free-agency/article_4908b7a6-852e-5312-9530-17d633d21547.html

Edited February 3, 2021 by YoloinOhio

[TheBeaneBandit]

25 minutes ago, CSBill said:

Bates! Bates! Bates! . . . He’ll be part of the line solution going forward. He is one of the reasons that Morse is Cap Space expendable. 

That'd be nice if it happened. Here's to hoping...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 hours ago, Allen2Moulds said:

I'm just a regular fan and far from an expert, but here are my 2 cents, judging by what Brandon Beane said on WGR the other day, along with another guest analyst earlier today.

 

They both mentioned that the running game woes werd more oline and scheme related, than RB related. Which means, don't expect pick 30 to be a RB, prob not until day 3 if any are even added. Our main focus will be 2 find a way to take the next step with the oline. Improve our run blocking without sacrificing too much in pass pro. Beane also mentioned that we practically got nothing out of our TE position. Also expect us to do all we can to improve our TE room.

 

Until the AFC Championship game, our oline had a phenomenal year protecting Josh Allen.  But.......we have a finesse line that couldn't create running lanes even against light boxes. That likely will be a major focus this off-season.  Expect us to roll out a more physical group up the middle. This doesn't mean that we will suddenly become a running team, we just have to be able to keep teams honest and make them pay when they don't. Teams dared us too run in the playoffs and we failed miserably.

This doesn't bode well for Morse, who not only doesn't fit the bill, but also has a large contract and is a concusion risk. I think they will resign Feliciano with the intention to move him to Center permanently.

Love him or hate him, Cody Ford is likely still part of the plan at one of the guard spots. He still has a lot of refining to do, and will likely cost us a few pass pro reps, but the hope is that he gives us more of a boost in the running game, and he's cheap. I also think they resign Daryl Williams.  He's relatively young and had an outstanding year at RT. That still leaves 1 of the guard spots up for grabs.

 

Projected starting 5

 

Dion/Boetger or Rook/Feliciano/Ford/Williams

 

As for TE, expect them to make 1 big splash via FA or trade to bring in a playmaking TE. TE's rarely make impacts as rookies, and I think we're ready to compete now.

 

It was linked in another thread, but you may find this worth looking at Cover1's breakdown of the run game issues.  It may give you a different perspective on Williams and the run game.

 

As far as reading between the lines, what Beane actually said was that Knox had an inconsistent start to the year then injuries and Covid, and that he came on towards the end of the year but "it was never where the opposing defense was like 'we gotta stop their TE from going off".  Not quite the same as "we got practically nothing from our TE".  (But I suppose you can see it from there)

 

The quote about Morse being an athletic center and not the guy to push the nose tackle back 3 feet has been taken out of context, I think.  Beane said a lot more positive stuff: he praised Morse's communication and said he finished the season strong. 

 

Beane praised Feliciano's versatility along with his communication and toughness.  Since the Bills value versatility in backup players, I would expect to see the Bills try to keep Feliciano as a backup center who can compete for a guard spot this year.  I wouldn't count on our being able to bring him back (though the KC game might help) and I wouldn't count on Morse being cut.  We save some money, but we also create almost as much money in dead cap and create a hole at backup C/guard that might require more than 1 guy to fill.

 

Beane specifically said he wouldn't characterize Ford as a guard or a tackle at this point.

 

[HappyDays]

20 hours ago, Allen2Moulds said:

They both mentioned that the running game woes werd more oline and scheme related, than RB related.

 

Don't trust anything Beane says until after the draft. He isn't going to come out and say that he wants to draft a RB early. Considering he tried to sign Leveon Bell earlier this year he clearly thinks they need more from the position.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

Yes probably the biggest  mistake on personnel this year.

 

The blunder leading up to Wyatt being traded was Quinton Spain, what a  colossal bust for the Bills.  Picked him up for three years and $15 million and in seven months he was cut.  I thought we got Bates because he was versatile and could add some weight.  I always wanted to see more of Bates.  They need to decide if he is a guard or tackle and i think he actually had a few snaps at center.  

 

Has Bates actually played guard in a game?  In the Seattle game, he came in for someone  - was it Boettger?

 

Bates came in for one series at center in the 1st NE game when Morse got concussed.  He played well (we scored a TD) but the next series Feliciano came in at center and Boettger came in to replace him at guard.

 

 

 

[Don Otreply]

The run blocking went all to sh-t when Spain got to big for his britches, and got cut, and Ford was injured, then IRd. Compared to last season the O line is bad at run blocking, Singletary regressed, and Moss is just not as good as we hoped he could be, one thing feeds another so to speak, the failures fall mainly on bad schemes and players inability to execute run plays. We became a one dimensional offense, which was fine when our very good receivers were healthy, but when they all got injured the gig was up, and KC handed us our azsez. Time for SM and BB to work their magic and fix this. We don’t need to run a lot more, but we need an actual run game that works when we use it. I have complete faith that SM & BB will do what needs to be done to make this work, so I’m not worried in the slightest. It will be fun to see how the go about doing the fix. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

The run blocking went all to sh-t when Spain got to big for his britches, and got cut

 

Does anyone have any inside info on exactly what went on there?

 

Spain played in Game 1 and most of Game 2 at LG.  Didn't play game 3, came in for injured Winters for about half of Game 4, then went Boo-Boo Foot for Game 5 and that was it, slung out of town.

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Does anyone have any inside info on exactly what went on there?

 

Spain played in Game 1 and most of Game 2 at LG.  Didn't play game 3, came in for injured Winters for about half of Game 4, then went Boo-Boo Foot for Game 5 and that was it, slung out of town.

There has been no specific story verified. However, the analysts I’ve heard discuss it believe that he felt entitled to the starting job after signing the new deal, didn’t play well enough to earn it, got benched, and didn’t take it well. That led to his release on how he handled the situation. They believe he didn’t put the team first in his reaction to the situation. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Just curious if those tea leaves can explain why the running game fell apart this year compared to last season.  I mean the 2019 Bills running game wasn't confusing anyone with Derrick Henry, but they did look serviceable and wasn't a huge concern going into this year.  Now this is probably one of the biggest issues for next year. 

 

This year three of the same five from last year are back.  The one completely different change is no Spain, instead Ike once Ford went down.  This year, Ford played half the season at guard before getting hurt as opposed to last year played at tackle.  The other change is at RT with Williams, but he's been one of the more solid players this season.  I supposed it's possible that while he's great at pass blocking is/was terrible at run blocking.  Reading the tea leaves sounds like Morse doesn't fit the scheme that well, did the scheme change since last year when he seemed to be fine?

 

Could it simply be this season our pass game was so good, we just didn't bother enough trying to get the run game going? 

 

So what do the tea leaves show??

[DrPJax]

15 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If you have a link would love to watch this. 

 

But I have been saying all year it is a mix of poor run blocking AND running backs who are slow to accelerate and hit the hole. That combination has been the problem. 

 

It isn't just the running backs, but it isn't just the line either. 

 

My conclusion is I'd rather not mess too much with a line that Kansas City games apart had a really nice year in pass pro. I don't want to sacrifice pass game production for run game production and so while I totally agree that the reasons for the struggle are shared the more palatable solution in my mind is more speed at running back so that those holes are being hit more quickly. Equally though I don't want to spend big resources on it. The Bills should be looking for a diamond in the rough speed back IMO. 

Gunner , sorry I couldn’t do a link for some reason ( using an iPad and sometimes things just don’t work like with windows) , but the video by  Cover1  is : THE FILM ROOM : THE BILLS GLARING RUN GAME ISSUES. [Edit: here's the link -Hap]  It was just done by Eric turner  and another great young guy. They broke down line play, snap counts, different personnel through the year ( like having quinton Spain as a starter etc) , they used extensive diagramming of all 22 film and broke down expected assignments and shows how terrible those basic assignments were missed. Some times as a long time but casual fan I am not sure aboit dual or combo blocks , how footwork should be done etc  and these guys break it down with actual plays from games and it was so informative and really eye opening!  I can’t recommend it enough. It’s on their YouTube cover 1 channel so just search you tube for that title and it will come up. Man , after watching that I am convinced we have a huge line coaching issue  because of the drop off from the prior year. Morse get so much criticism on year yet when you see how good he is when used properly , we need to hold onto him. The guards tho were terrible and even Dawkins had issues with run blocking. Williams was flat ou terrible win run blocking Andy his effort at times, or lack of it was surprising. Honestly, after seeing that , it’s not all a coaching issue ( largely tho!) and so if he moves on it won’t be a huge loss. We have to have so,e vis one run game or our passing gsme will eventually not work.   
 

We really need to get this fixed. I am concerned about Mcd and his loyalty to a fault. He probably needs to get a new o line and even new RB COACH ( see the stats on these backs , Devin declined , and it seems it’s not all on the backs yet at times they make inexplainable terrible reads on blocking and how to follow their blocks ), question is will Mcd have the balls to make the changes. This is a great watch to really show why we had no run gsme and imho , we were lucky to get as far as we did in the playoffs. It  was a great example of how far we are behind KC!   Worth your time , about an hour, but it’s never boring and I learned a ton from it.  Hope you enjoy it! Let me know your thoughts. We can prob fix a lot of issues without spending huge $ , by getting competent coaching on the lines, but it is obvious we need a speedy powerful back to hit holes that are gone quickly. However at times the o line opened massive lanes and the rbs just blew the reads , fumbled , etc.    Really eye opening and you will feel you have actual answers and solitons after watching their detailed breakdown.  Beat wishes, Randy.