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Michael1962

Overview of 2020 rookies

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Wait, I thought Beane was a poor talent evaluator and drafter? 
 

Someone tell New York Upstate and Ryan Talbot before they embarrass themselves putting out fake news! 

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3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Among the actual draft picks there hasn't been anyone who has stood out as a likely star...........so early returns aren't exceptional.

 

We have seen flashes of excellent play from some of them........but it's not uncommon for rookies to get lot's of opportunity and playing time out of necessity or just because of the teams draft investment in them.

 

But then when they don't show a lot of improvement their playing time gets cut the next year.   

 

Think Brandon Spoon.......starts 14 games for the Bills as a rookie at MLB.........never plays another down in the NFL.

 

For further perspective remember that last year at this time a lot of people felt Cody Ford, Devin Singletary and Dawson Knox looked like studs in the making and they'd fight you if you suggested otherwise.

 

They've all had lousy second seasons and many of the same fans want to fight THEM now.

 

Probably the Bills best looking draft class at midseason in the 2000's was the 2007 class:

 

1. Marshawn Lynch

2. Paul Posluszny

3. Trent Edwards

 

Fans were thinking we probably had 3 perennial Pro Bowl players.................but none of them even made it to contract #2 with Buffalo.

 

The upside is that in a couple years the players could be a lot better.    Fred Jackson was a rookie UDFA on that 2007 team.

 


 

yup- a class without a 1st won’t often jump off the page, and with a kicker and running back it should be producing impact out of the gate.

 

the problem is fans always project all the guys to make big steps forward and that’s far from given.

 

a solid rotational end, a rotational rb plus kicker and maybe nickel back wouldn’t be the best ever but wouldn’t be an awful batch for day two and on. Any of them regress (especially epenesa) and it gets rough quick though.

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2 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

Wait, I thought Beane was a poor talent evaluator and drafter? 
 

Someone tell New York Upstate and Ryan Talbot before they embarrass themselves putting out fake news! 

 

 

If "wait's" and "but, but..'s" were candies and nuts oh what a Merry Christmas for TSW!

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5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Among the actual draft picks there hasn't been anyone who has stood out as a likely star...........so early returns aren't exceptional.

 

We have seen flashes of excellent play from some of them........but it's not uncommon for rookies to get lot's of opportunity and playing time out of necessity or just because of the teams draft investment in them.

 

But then when they don't show a lot of improvement their playing time gets cut the next year.   

 

Think Brandon Spoon.......starts 14 games for the Bills as a rookie at MLB.........never plays another down in the NFL.

 

For further perspective remember that last year at this time a lot of people felt Cody Ford, Devin Singletary and Dawson Knox looked like studs in the making and they'd fight you if you suggested otherwise.

 

They've all had lousy second seasons and many of the same fans want to fight THEM now.

 

Probably the Bills best looking draft class at midseason in the 2000's was the 2007 class:

 

1. Marshawn Lynch

2. Paul Posluszny

3. Trent Edwards

 

Fans were thinking we probably had 3 perennial Pro Bowl players.................but none of them even made it to contract #2 with Buffalo.

 

The upside is that in a couple years the players could be a lot better.    Fred Jackson was a rookie UDFA on that 2007 team.

 


I don’t think too many people were thinking Cody Ford looked like a stud on this board.   It was more of a battle between people calling him a bust and people saying we he was playing ok and rookie tackles typically struggle a bit.   Due to injury, I don’t think any of us really know what he is at G yet.  
 

Singletary and Knox definitely got hype, and they’ve certainly been let-downs so far this year.   You’re correct there.  
 

 

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15 hours ago, Michael1962 said:

I didn't see this posted elsewhere.  I found this article interesting and would like to hear other's perspectives on this.   If I am the only one who find it interesting, etc., please delete.  https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2020/11/bills-gabriel-davis-tyler-bass-and-dane-jackson-among-buffalos-most-pleasant-surprises-2020-draft-class-overview-at-bye.html


It’s in the main page of two bills drive.  It is turning out to be a promising draft.  Moss isn’t the problem, the O Line in the rush is the problem.  It’s almost baffling how they can do a very good job at pass pro, and nit create a seam for Moss.  Davis has been awesome.  We don’t know on Fromm, Bass has his sea legs now and looks worth it, and Jackson is going to be the steal of the draft.  We don’t know on Hodgins.  The article mentioned they may be keeping him on IR to stash him and that makes sense.  Epenesa is competing with a lot of guys.  I’m hopeful as we head down the stretch he gets more playing time.

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16 hours ago, SCBills said:


I don’t think too many people were thinking Cody Ford looked like a stud on this board.   It was more of a battle between people calling him a bust and people saying we he was playing ok and rookie tackles typically struggle a bit.   Due to injury, I don’t think any of us really know what he is at G yet.  
 

Singletary and Knox definitely got hype, and they’ve certainly been let-downs so far this year.   You’re correct there.  
 

 

 

 

I don't think you recall the period after the Denver game.......a year ago this week........when Von Miller blew some smoke up Ford's azz after the game there were a lot of people who thought he was ascending rapidly to stud status.    For the rest of the season that game was cited over and over by those who loved the Ford pick.

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Another Jackson, maybe another 'diamond in the rough'. Too early to tell, but definitely promising, and with both McDermott and Frazier to coach him up, I think there's a lot of promise there, for the future.

 

I'm glad that Epenesa was gradually getting some time on the field. I think that shows that he is showing the staff something. There are a bunch of vets (sort of) ahead of him, and without pre-season games, it must have been tough going to get the coaches attention. Again, there's promise there, and with the age of (some) of the guys ahead of him, he will get opportunities going forward - he just has to make the most of them.

 

Bass has a leg and a half. He has also improved as the season has gone on. Possibly a bit of a calculated risk to keep him ahead of Hauschka, but it seems to be paying off. A bit of patience will still be needed, as I'm sure he will make a pig's ear of the odd 'gimme' kick still, but he's also going to outright win a few games with that leg of his.

 

Davis has generally been impressive. Seems to make at least one good play a game. Not yet as rounded or refined as he will be in time, but already a valuable contributor, and likely to remain so well into the future.

 

Lastly, Moss.

I have been critical of him, as early on, I thought he wasn't getting the speed of the NFL, at all.

I think he does now.

It is possible that it was in part injury related, but I also think that the couple of games off he had getting fully healthy again, were a bit like Allen in his first year, where he got the opportunity to work a few thing out. He should be a decent part of a RB rotation as we look forward. We just need our line to start run blocking.

 

All of the above have contributed this season, and appear as though they will do so in the future. If they do, and improve, it will turn out to be a very handy draft.

 

Where the draft has been a roaring success, is with the trade for Diggs, who has, if anything, been better than advertised. It's also, oddly enough, a trade that looks like everyone is happy with. Even taking the 'opportunity cost' arguments on board, in respect of picks and contract, I still believe we are getting more than good value for what we gave up.

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21 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

Wait, I thought Beane was a poor talent evaluator and drafter? 
 

Someone tell New York Upstate and Ryan Talbot before they embarrass themselves putting out fake news! 

Thankfully he hit on Josh Allen.... it's allowed him to be pretty mediocre with every other pick which he has been to this point.... 

 

I'd argue Whaleys drafts were better. He just whiffed at the QB position.(And nothing else matters) 

Edited by ScottLaw
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23 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Thankfully he hit on Josh Allen.... it's allowed him to be pretty mediocre with every other pick which he has been to this point.... 

 

I'd argue Whaleys drafts were better. He just whiffed at the QB position.(And nothing else matters) 

Well that’s not what this article says... and I’ll have to disagree on Whaley. Outside of Woods, Watkins, Lawson and Darby pretty much everyone he took is out of the NFL now... most of them never contributed to the Bills. 
 

I don’t count the 2017 draft for either GM, because we’ll never really know who was more influential McDermott or Whaley. At least it’s controversial amongst posters here. 
 

I count 7 guys (can make it 8 if you want to add Teller) Beane drafted that are starting on a playoff caliber team plus a bunch of role players contributing. He’s not perfect but the idea that a GM has to find a starter in all 7 rounds or else he’s bad is foolish. He’s been above average. 
 

Unfortunately fans place very high expectations on every draft pick and it they don’t live up to those lofty expectations then they’re a missed pick. It’s just a lack understanding of value. 

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So 7 picks. 

The only one I don't see having a future in Buf or the NFL is Fromm. 

 

Epenesa has been inconsistent, but has flashed his ability but it's tough for a rookie DL with Covid n not much Training Camp. 

 

Moss has potential 

Gabe is legit

Bass is Legit 

Dane is a year away but played great in limited time. 

I have no clue what's up with Hodgins. But with our top 5 WR set , we probably won't know until 2021.

 

All in all , good - very good class. If you want to add Diggs as well, you got a great one!

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Diggs is a difference maker, obviously, and he was obtained in a trade  that gave up a first round pick and others.  He is well worth the trade, but among the players Buffalo actually drafted there is not yet any real difference maker.  That's not a huge surprise having to start making picks toward the end of the second round.  What Buffalo got, at least at this point are role players.  Epenesa shows some promise, but there are probably more questions about him than anyone else.  He hasn't yet paid off Buffalo's bet on him.  Moss is expected to be a tag team running back with Singletary.  Neither one has had any consistency at all this season, but I think maybe other areas of the offense are to blame for their ample episodes of ineffective play.  I can only guess, but I think a lack of continuity in the interior of the offensive line is a big factor.  Maybe play design and play selection have  something to do with it too, but I don't really know.  Gabe Davis certainly seems to have lots of upside, but doesn't have a lot of room to make a lot of plays on the Bills roster.  This season, he'll continue to make a handful of plays in most games.   At some point, he may get a chance to do more.  I expect less from Jake Fromm than any other draft pick.  I think at best he'll be a game manager in the NFL.  Maybe he could serve as a backup to Josh Allen when he gets some experience.  Serving as a COVID-19 emergency backup doesn't exactly help him much in that regard.  I don't think the Bills would regard him as a long term solution even as a backup.  He's someone you keep on the roster until something better comes along.  Tyler Bass might turn out to be a great kicker.  I have no complaints about hi,  He displayed some rookie jitters early on, but he's got a huge leg, still, there are a lot of good kickers , and it's only an occasional game where the outcome hangs on the difference between a good and a great kicker.  Isaiah Hodgins has even less room than Davis to get a shot with the Bills.   We'll see what he does in training camp next summer.  Dane Jackson is a really nice 7th round pick.  He's not fast, but faster than Wallace or Norman, but he's shorter than both of them.  I'd like to see Buffalo eventually get a bigger CB with athleticism to upgrade the secondary, but there's always room for a plucky player like Jackson.

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12 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

Well that’s not what this article says... and I’ll have to disagree on Whaley. Outside of Woods, Watkins, Lawson and Darby pretty much everyone he took is out of the NFL now... most of them never contributed to the Bills. 
 

I don’t count the 2017 draft for either GM, because we’ll never really know who was more influential McDermott or Whaley. At least it’s controversial amongst posters here. 
 

I count 7 guys (can make it 8 if you want to add Teller) Beane drafted that are starting on a playoff caliber team plus a bunch of role players contributing. He’s not perfect but the idea that a GM has to find a starter in all 7 rounds or else he’s bad is foolish. He’s been above average. 
 

Unfortunately fans place very high expectations on every draft pick and it they don’t live up to those lofty expectations then they’re a missed pick. It’s just a lack understanding of value. 

His draft picks outside of Josh Allen(again, criticize Beane all you want but he got it right with Allen which goes a long way) are filled with mediocre to below average players.(At least to this point)

 

He needs to start doing better in rounds 1-3 for this team to get over the top and win a Super Bowl. Especially once Allen gets his hefty contract extension. 

Edited by ScottLaw

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On 11/19/2020 at 11:13 AM, NoSaint said:


wait- are you serious?


yup. Solid contributing class. 
 

A second round DE isn’t often an instant game changer

 

a 3rd round rb should contribute heavily early 

 

a drafted kicker should work like ours has

 

a late DB contributing isn’t terribly rare, hopefully he develops into something. 

 

Bass may yet be THE pick of this draft for the Bills.

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I think Dane Jackson might be really good. Not really good for a nobody, 7th round, practice squad guy....really good for an NFL corner. I don’t wish injury or misfortune on the guys that are ahead of him because I really like White and Wallace, but I do want to see more of what he could do as a starter. I wonder if he could kick inside.  If you could ever get Taron Johnson out of there and have 27,39,30 all out there at once, we might have something special. Especially with our safety’s. I know white can do that but I’m not asking for our best player to be moved in order to get a 7th round guy on the field more.

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34 minutes ago, Jaraxxus said:

 

Bass may yet be THE pick of this draft for the Bills.


The early freak outs were a bit much. He’s going to be a good kicker. 
 

im not sure you declare that the kind of pick that makes it a draft of a lifetime based on the low positional/financial value but I’m down for any day 3 pick that contributes as a deserved starter role 

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11 minutes ago, NoSaint said:


The early freak outs were a bit much. He’s going to be a good kicker. 
 

im not sure you declare that the kind of pick that makes it a draft of a lifetime based on the low positional/financial value but I’m down for any day 3 pick that contributes as a deserved starter role 

Kickers typically lead in scoring so if you find a great one, i.e. janikowski, it's a good thing.

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3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

His draft picks outside of Josh Allen(again, criticize Beane all you want but he got it right with Allen which goes a long way) are filled with mediocre to below average players.(At least to this point)

 

He needs to start doing better in rounds 1-3 for this team to get over the top and win a Super Bowl. Especially once Allen gets his hefty contract extension. 

I’m just kind of confused... how can Beane have 7 players over 3 drafts that are starting on a playoff caliber team that are mediocre to below average. 
 

If 7/22 starters are mediocre on this team are mediocre then that’s a real serious issue. They can’t be mediocre or below average otherwise the team wouldn’t be performing at a high level. 

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3 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

I think Dane Jackson might be really good. Not really good for a nobody, 7th round, practice squad guy....really good for an NFL corner. I don’t wish injury or misfortune on the guys that are ahead of him because I really like White and Wallace, but I do want to see more of what he could do as a starter. I wonder if he could kick inside.  If you could ever get Taron Johnson out of there and have 27,39,30 all out there at once, we might have something special. Especially with our safety’s. I know white can do that but I’m not asking for our best player to be moved in order to get a 7th round guy on the field more.

 

It's important to remember that this system is VERY cornerback friendly.

 

It's easy to forget NOW that there was also this sentiment for Levi Wallace and Taron Johnson in their rookie years..........like good starters had been found on the cheap........particularly Johnson who had developed a Kiko-esque reputation as an excellent slot corner.

 

We can always hope that Jackson sustains what he's shown but given the easy success so many find at CB in McDermott's system we are going to have to see a lot more before we can call him a really good NFL corner.    

 

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I think Beane is worthy of criticism for his drafting so far, but it’s also offset by his roster building and selection/development of Allen.  
 

Mixed bag, but when you hit on the QB, build a solid OL and trade for a young top 5 WR, you will be, and should be, afforded some forgiveness.  
 

That said... Ford, Epenesa, Singletary, Moss, Knox and Harry have all been underwhelming given where they were drafted and/or how they’ve developed.  We really need to start seeing the RB’s become more consistent and Ford/Epenesa/Knox to get healthy and make an impact.   Harry seems like he might be falling out of favor with the staff already.  
 

On the other hand, Gabriel Davis, Taron Johnson, Levi Wallace and Dane Jackson seem to show the staff can identify solid starters later in the draft process.  
 

Edited by SCBills

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