Ivy League cancels all Fall sports

[NoSaint]

46 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

But the point is, if the Power Conferences decide to allow football and play conference games, it blows their argument that "no game could be played".

 

If they arent practicing, and arent playing at all, then that is different. Things could certainly change.

 

But they can't say "We can't play Buffalo, but we can go to Ann Arbor" and expect to win that argument. Just another factor that might push this into no football at all.

 

The other events that are being canceled using force majeure are being canceled completely.

cant play a game September 5 and can’t play in October are very different. Especially given that playing a game requires a certain level of preparation that in some places cannot be started yet. 
 

ive been dealing in nothing but force majeure for large events since this started and would be shocked to see it challenged unless they try to replace the games with others over the same dates.

 

this article assumes the absolute strictest versions of the clause in place and a judge that would enforce it at the strictest level. No other legal arguments I’ve seen assume that judges would come close to that on events in a shorter term window. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by NoSaint

[DrDawkinstein]

16 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

cant play a game September 5 and can’t play in October are very different. Especially given that playing a game requires a certain level of preparation that in some places cannot be started yet. 
 

ive been dealing in nothing but force majeure for large events since this started and would be shocked to see it challenged unless they try to replace the games with others over the same dates.

 

this article assumes the absolute strictest versions of the clause in place and a judge that would enforce it at the strictest level. No other legal arguments I’ve seen assume that judges would come close to that on events in a shorter term window. 

 

Fair enough! We shall see

[YoloinOhio]

3 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

But the point is, if the Power Conferences decide to allow football and play conference games, it blows their argument that "no game could be played".

 

If they arent practicing, and arent playing at all, then that is different. Things could certainly change.

 

But they can't say "We can't play Buffalo, but we can go to Ann Arbor" and expect to win that argument. Just another factor that might push this into no football at all.

 

The other events that are being canceled using force majeure are being canceled completely.

Gene Smith, the AD at Ohio state, specifically said the main reason the there OOC games were cancelled at the beginning of the season was to allow more flexibility to move conference games earlier and possibly add a conference game so they can get to 10 in 13 weeks. It wasn’t that games could not be played or travel issues. In fact BGSU is obviously  closer than, say, Rutgers . They want the best ability to have a meaningful season where a conference champ can be crowned and this is what they came up with. They want to try to play the division games first and end before thanksgiving. He wasn’t very optimistic that there would be a season, however, unless things improve. So he wasn’t arguing to not pay, he said he has to look at the contracts. I’m wondering if the big 10 will work something out with the MAC. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by YoloinOhio

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

23 hours ago, Mango said:

 

This is vague. I also don't know where it is coming from. As somebody who has dealt with the athletic dept. at each Ivy league and knowing what "big revenue" is for athletic departments, sports are not a big revenue generator. Endowments can have some difficulties being tapped into, but just to note, Harvard and Yale are 2 and 3 globally behind the Catholic church. That said, football and basketball are revenue generators in that they provide events for alumni to donate, but Ivy's don't generate much revenue at all with athletics. 

 

In 2018 Harvard took in $1.4 Billion dollars in donations. So their $30M in athletic expenses is a pittance. They also have a ton of head coaches and faculty that are more or less double paid. They get their salary from the school and their seat is endowed, so they get both.

 

This is just a wildly incorrect statement. 

It's best to put that guy on ignore, as I did. His comments range from wildly incorrect to downright dumb. 

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, NoSaint said:

cant play a game September 5 and can’t play in October are very different. Especially given that playing a game requires a certain level of preparation that in some places cannot be started yet. 
 

ive been dealing in nothing but force majeure for large events since this started and would be shocked to see it challenged unless they try to replace the games with others over the same dates.

 

this article assumes the absolute strictest versions of the clause in place and a judge that would enforce it at the strictest level. No other legal arguments I’ve seen assume that judges would come close to that on events in a shorter term window. 

 

 

But deciding in early July that you won't play those games in September, but will play the (conference) games in October has to weaken the force majeure argument, no?

 

They aren't saying they can't play, they are saying at this time,  they won't play.  I'm not sure a judge or jury would be able to split the hair that determines when a team in these football all factories is "prepared" to play...unless they don't start even practices until late August. (I don't know when they are starting).

[NoSaint]

10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

But deciding in early July that you won't play those games in September, but will play the (conference) games in October has to weaken the force majeure argument, no?

 

They aren't saying they can't play, they are saying at this time,  they won't play.  I'm not sure a judge or jury would be able to split the hair that determines when a team in these football all factories is "prepared" to play...unless they don't start even practices until late August. (I don't know when they are starting).

 

they haven’t decided they WILL play in October, just that they won’t cancel yet.

 

weve been watching this around the country with conventions, festivals and concerts. I will say through the 3rd quarter no ones begun to consider penalty for cancelation. 
 

4th quarter partners tend to try to work together (see ideas like a future year replacement game, hugely reduced cancel costs). 
 

Q1 next year is starting to get contentious though with some organizations trying to cancel events. 
 

and on a real practical level no AD will want to sign with UB for one of these games in future if they pursue a substantial amount. 
 

and again that’s assuming the strictest possible FM clause with no exceptions for pandemic, health advisories, commercial impracticability etc... 

 

I will bet substantially UB has cancelled events later than this game citing an impossibility clause to avoid payment though. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by NoSaint

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

 

they haven’t decided they WILL play in October, just that they won’t cancel yet.

 

weve been watching this around the country with conventions, festivals and concerts. I will say through the 3rd quarter no ones begun to consider penalty for cancelation. 
 

4th quarter partners tend to try to work together (see ideas like a future year replacement game, hugely reduced cancel costs). 
 

Q1 next year is starting to get contentious though with some organizations trying to cancel events. 
 

and again that’s assuming the strictest possible FM clause with no exceptions for pandemic, health advisories, commercial impracticability etc... 

 

I will bet substantially UB has cancelled events later than this game citing an impossibility clause to avoid payment though. 

 

Their plan now is only conference games or no games at all.  If it turns out be the former, I think they are somewhat exposed.

 

I think it's different for events.  In Q2 and 3, shutdowns (mandated) have allowed events to cancel without penalty.  But you're right, going into next year, with much opening up, it will be harder to cancel unless the locale is in an area where governement gathering limits are still in effect.

[C.Biscuit97]

On 7/9/2020 at 10:40 PM, Augie said:

 

The only thing that would surprise me more is the same comment from the SEC. 

 

Sorry guys, I don’t see it happening this year. 

 

We will survive. Stuff happens, be smart. 

I can’t imagine the SEC cancelling.  It’s literally the only thing some of those southern towns have.  And the players are pieces of meat to them.  They don’t care about them.  
 

this whole thing just sucks.  I couldn’t imagine losing a year of football like this.  It’s such a mess and it sounds like it’s getting worse. 

[Paup 1995MVP]

On 7/9/2020 at 6:47 PM, Chandler#81 said:

“The Ivy League made a big decision on Wednesday to play no sports in the fall, including football.“

Who cares!!  The Ivy League is never in the discussion when it comes to College Sports anyways.  Would it matter if they never played Sports again anyways?  They are great academic institutions.  That is what they are known for.  Not sports.  

 

Big 10 making big mistake not playing a full schedule.  Canceling Michigan v Washington to open the season.  Terrible.  I don't see the other Power 5 conferences going in that direction.  Country has gone in the shitter in 2020.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I think it's time to move this to the College football forum, seems to be focused that way.

[C.Biscuit97]

7 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Who cares!!  The Ivy League is never in the discussion when it comes to College Sports anyways.  Would it matter if they never played Sports again anyways?  They are great academic institutions.  That is what they are known for.  Not sports.  

 

Big 10 making big mistake not playing a full schedule.  Canceling Michigan v Washington to open the season.  Terrible.  I don't see the other Power 5 conferences going in that direction.  Country has gone in the shitter in 2020.  

There are probably more nfl players from Harvard than a bunch of other power 5 schools.  Anyone who has actually played a college sport knows how hard it is to play for an IVY league.  Pretty crappy to dismiss them.  And they were the first to cancel their postseason tournament and then every other conference followed.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/college/_/letter/h

 

this is crazy but maybe really smart people know what they are talking about more than random idiots on twitter or Clay Travis. 

Edited July 11, 2020 by C.Biscuit97

[NoSaint]

5 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I can’t imagine the SEC cancelling.  It’s literally the only thing some of those southern towns have.  And the players are pieces of meat to them.  They don’t care about them.  
 

this whole thing just sucks.  I couldn’t imagine losing a year of football like this.  It’s such a mess and it sounds like it’s getting worse. 

And no governor will want to touch that sacred cow... but with the major spikes, you might see it trend that way if they don’t figure a way to safely start practice soon. I’d guess NFL will be a real indicator. If they cancel, good bye SEC. 

 

nfl cut preseasons down, these guys cut the fluff. Nfl will need to make the big decision first though as now they have games early September and likely all these won’t til October. Politically it’s one advantage of cutting the non conference and starting later for the college guys. You get to follow the nfl instead of work alongside it. The pros get to either take the heat or be the Guinea pigs. 

[Paup 1995MVP]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

There are probably more nfl players from Harvard than a bunch of other power 5 schools.  Anyone who has actually played a college sport knows how hard it is to play for an IVY league.  Pretty crappy to dismiss them.  And they were the first to cancel their postseason tournament and then every other conference followed.

 

this is crazy but maybe really smart people know what they are talking about more than random idiots on twitter or Clay Travis. 

I am not on twitter and never heard of Clay Travis.  But I do I almost never agree w your opinions on here.  And that is going back a whole lot of years.  

 

You miss my point.  Sure you have to work real hard academically to play a Varsity sport and get an education at an Ivy League School.  And young men who can do that deserve a lot of credit.  I know several young men who played on my son's middle school football team in the Atlanta area a decade ago (one of the best teams you have ever seen for that age btw) who went on to play college ball at Ivy League schools.  (my son was not that kind of student so he plays at Georgia Southern)  But the overall level of play is nothing to write home about is all.  So it really doesn't move the meter to me on whether they will play this season or not.

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

I am not on twitter and never heard of Clay Travis.  But I do I almost never agree w your opinions on here.  And that is going back a whole lot of years.  

 

You miss my point.  Sure you have to work real hard academically to play a Varsity sport and get an education at an Ivy League School.  And young men who can do that deserve a lot of credit.  I know several young men who played on my son's middle school football team in the Atlanta area a decade ago (one of the best teams you have ever seen for that age btw) who went on to play college ball at Ivy League schools.  (my son was not that kind of student so he plays at Georgia Southern)  But the overall level of play is nothing to write home about is all.  So it really doesn't move the meter to me on whether they will play this season or not.

I don’t know who you are but you just admitted you’re wrong a lot.  Because I’m like really smart.  
 

and there are 11 guys from Harvard on nfl rosters.  It sucks but other conferences are going to start following what the smart school do.  Except the SEC.  the south loves using people for free labor and tossing them aside.  

[NoSaint]

19 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I don’t know who you are but you just admitted you’re wrong a lot.  Because I’m like really smart.  
 

and there are 11 guys from Harvard on nfl rosters.  It sucks but other conferences are going to start following what the smart school do.  Except the SEC.  the south loves using people for free labor and tossing them aside.  

yup. Most places will realize this is a bad spot to force an 18 year old to make a decision to play or not... ncaa is still kids playing uncompensated and has the dark underbelly of unreasonable coaches that hold grudges. 
 

suddenly a kid has to quarantine or be in a bubble for months for free because he wants a fair shot at making the team next year, for instance? 

Edited July 11, 2020 by NoSaint

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Who cares!!  The Ivy League is never in the discussion when it comes to College Sports anyways.  Would it matter if they never played Sports again anyways?  They are great academic institutions.  That is what they are known for.  Not sports.  

 

Big 10 making big mistake not playing a full schedule.  Canceling Michigan v Washington to open the season.  Terrible.  I don't see the other Power 5 conferences going in that direction.  Country has gone in the shitter in 2020.  

PAC 12 already has. SEC and one of the other ones vote next week. If they don’t go that direction it’s fine according to the CFB playoff committee. They will use whatever data is available to choose who goes but conf champ is very important data point 

Edited July 11, 2020 by YoloinOhio

[Paup 1995MVP]

22 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I don’t know who you are but you just admitted you’re wrong a lot.  Because I’m like really smart.  
 

and there are 11 guys from Harvard on nfl rosters.  It sucks but other conferences are going to start following what the smart school do.  Except the SEC.  the south loves using people for free labor and tossing them aside.  

The South is just fine.  Have  you lived down here to even make such a ridiculous comment bro?  And trust me I am like plenty smart enuf in the world I live and function in. 

 

You keep worrying about Harvard and their football program.  Because it really means beans on any level of society.  When I was young I thought wow going to an Ivy League school was something really special.  But once you lived as much life as I have you realize that means ***** in the real world.  And your success is not predicated on any of that.  

 

So you keep coming up w your opinions and I will keep coming up w mine.  

21 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

PAC 12 already has. SEC and one of the other ones vote next week. If they don’t go that direction it’s fine according to the CFB playoff committee. They will use whatever data is available to choose who goes but conf champ is very important data point 

Michigan just needs to start playing like a champion again is all I care about.  

 

And my son to stay healthy so he can show what he can do on the football field again.

[YoloinOhio]

12 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

The South is just fine.  Have  you lived down here to even make such a ridiculous comment bro?  And trust me I am like plenty smart enuf in the world I live and function in. 

 

You keep worrying about Harvard and their football program.  Because it really means beans on any level of society.  When I was young I thought wow going to an Ivy League school was something really special.  But once you lived as much life as I have you realize that means ***** in the real world.  And your success is not predicated on any of that.  

 

So you keep coming up w your opinions and I will keep coming up w mine.  

Michigan just needs to start playing like a champion again is all I care about.  

 

And my son to stay healthy so he can show what he can do on the football field again.

Your son plays for Michigan? Well that’s pretty big time  (even though I’m an Ohio state fan)

[C.Biscuit97]

On 7/12/2020 at 10:14 AM, Paup 1995MVP said:

The South is just fine.  Have  you lived down here to even make such a ridiculous comment bro?  And trust me I am like plenty smart enuf in the world I live and function in. 

 

You keep worrying about Harvard and their football program.  Because it really means beans on any level of society.  When I was young I thought wow going to an Ivy League school was something really special.  But once you lived as much life as I have you realize that means ***** in the real world.  And your success is not predicated on any of that.  

 

So you keep coming up w your opinions and I will keep coming up w mine.  

Michigan just needs to start playing like a champion again is all I care about.  

 

And my son to stay healthy so he can show what he can do on the football field again.

Huh?  What did I say wasn’t true?  I’ve been to good parts of the south plenty.  There are a lot of racist people who love watching football and don’t give 2 craps about the student athletes and their health.  They prioritize making money over the well being of the student athlete.  It’s completely true.  
 

and I pointed out Harvard because they have probably have more nfl players than a bunch of Power 5 teams.  It’s a good program and their players are going to be super successful in what they do.  If you don’t see the difference in an Ivy League degree compared to one from Mississippi State, I don’t know what to tell you.  

[Bill from NYC]

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 I’ve been to good parts of the south plenty.  There are a lot of racist people who love watching football.

 

Good points! I sure am glad that none of this exists up north.

[Paup 1995MVP]

18 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Your son plays for Michigan? Well that’s pretty big time  (even though I’m an Ohio state fan)

I wish he did.  I went to Michigan in the 80's.  My son played at Syracuse and then transferred to Georgia Southern.  Not quite Michigan but hopefully he can turn some heads this year if he can stay healthy.  Had a bad knee injury against LSU last year.  Fortunately surgery went well last fall, and he has busted his butt rehabbing.  

[PromoTheRobot]

The Patriot League, the top FCS football conference, just cancelled all fall sports.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/29455357/source-patriot-league-cancel-fall-sports

[Gordio]

20 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

I wish he did.  I went to Michigan in the 80's.  My son played at Syracuse and then transferred to Georgia Southern.  Not quite Michigan but hopefully he can turn some heads this year if he can stay healthy.  Had a bad knee injury against LSU last year.  Fortunately surgery went well last fall, and he has busted his butt rehabbing.  

 

 

I got to tell you, I don't want to offend you but my son just played a baseball tournament in Ann Arbor.  He was supposed to play on Michigan University but they switched that due to covid.  I wasn't impressed with the university.  I thought it would be nicer.  Lot of low end housing around the campus, on campus had no special feel to it.  The Big House looked cool(at least the outside, didn't get to see the inside) but it looked small, maybe because it looked like it was built underground.  Hard to imagine though that place holds 100K +.  Just wasn't impressed with the campus as a whole though, thought it would be nicer.  Even around campus I didn't see a ton of college bars.  I did see some frat guys playing beer pong on their front lawn so that brought back some good memories for me.  I didn't think it was that impressive though.

[YoloinOhio]

On 7/9/2020 at 7:08 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Ohio State pausing all "voluntary" workouts:

https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-07-08-20-intl/

"The pause affects men’s and women’s basketball, field hockey, football, men’s and women’s soccer and women’s volleyball."

Re-started Today after testing yesterday 

[Paup 1995MVP]

On 7/14/2020 at 12:47 PM, Gordio said:

 

 

I got to tell you, I don't want to offend you but my son just played a baseball tournament in Ann Arbor.  He was supposed to play on Michigan University but they switched that due to covid.  I wasn't impressed with the university.  I thought it would be nicer.  Lot of low end housing around the campus, on campus had no special feel to it.  The Big House looked cool(at least the outside, didn't get to see the inside) but it looked small, maybe because it looked like it was built underground.  Hard to imagine though that place holds 100K +.  Just wasn't impressed with the campus as a whole though, thought it would be nicer.  Even around campus I didn't see a ton of college bars.  I did see some frat guys playing beer pong on their front lawn so that brought back some good memories for me.  I didn't think it was that impressive though.

No offense taken.  I went there from 83-87.  You are correct about the low end housing.  It is not one of those fancy modern campuses with lots of newness everywhere.  I lived in a dorm on the "Hill" for two years.  It was called Mosher-Jordan.  It was nice.  But most of the dorms are basic average type buildings.  The school is a great academic institution.  But the physical structure of the university is not spectacular.  As for the bar scene, not sure what its like today.  When I was there there were two bars in particular I hung out at.  Charlies and Ricks.  Both were fun and the booze was always flowing.  There was also Dooley's on the other side of campus, more towards the city of Ann Arbor.  There were a lot of frat parties and dorm parties back in the day.  There were no rules about underage drinking in the dorms in the 80's. There were keggers on every floor it seemed like on the weekends.  Very different then the rules set by colleges today.    

[par73]

MEAC is out, as well.

[PromoTheRobot]

Not a football conference but A10 nixes fall sports.

 

 

[PromoTheRobot]

Now the CAA domino topples.

 

 

[YoloinOhio]

Power 5 will play. None of these small programs are cash cows for their universities, towns, have huge sponsors, etc.

[N.Y. Orangeman]

On 7/18/2020 at 7:07 PM, YoloinOhio said:

Power 5 will play. None of these small programs are cash cows for their universities, towns, have huge sponsors, etc.

 

I'll be shocked if all the Power 5 play this fall.  The protocols required to keep kids safe in a university setting are nearly impossible, let alone when you consider they need to travel across state lines.  The University Presidents (and many Governors) will stop most, if not all, football in the next 3-6 months.  All it would take is one kid to end up on a ventilator and a campus would explode IMO.

 

I'd never rule out the SEC though....

Edited July 20, 2020 by N.Y. Orangeman

[YoloinOhio]

On 7/20/2020 at 2:49 PM, N.Y. Orangeman said:

 

I'll be shocked if all the Power 5 play this fall.  The protocols required to keep kids safe in a university setting are nearly impossible, let alone when you consider they need to travel across state lines.  The University Presidents (and many Governors) will stop most, if not all, football in the next 3-6 months.  All it would take is one kid to end up on a ventilator and a campus would explode IMO.

 

I'd never rule out the SEC though....

Things change every day but it’s getting pretty late for that. Oklahoma just moved up their 1st game to 8/29. It will be a weird season but it will happen. Way too much TV money for the big programs to not give it every possible go. 

[Buffalo716]

On 7/13/2020 at 10:26 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:

Huh?  What did I say wasn’t true?  I’ve been to good parts of the south plenty.  There are a lot of racist people who love watching football and don’t give 2 craps about the student athletes and their health.  They prioritize making money over the well being of the student athlete.  It’s completely true.  
 

and I pointed out Harvard because they have probably have more nfl players than a bunch of Power 5 teams.  It’s a good program and their players are going to be super successful in what they do.  If you don’t see the difference in an Ivy League degree compared to one from Mississippi State, I don’t know what to tell you.  

Last season Harvard had 5 players in the NFL

 

Syracuse had the least amount of power 5 teams with four. Harvard was tied with Kansas with 5

[PromoTheRobot]

 

[YoloinOhio]

50 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Sparty too. But they only had 3 - two staffers and one player