Fixing the System - Systemic Racism, the CJ system, Profiting off of incarceration, etc thread - (facts & info for real discussion only)

[Reed83HOF]

These topics are creeping up in many threads and a lot of different viewpoints are out there on this. There are a lot of knowledgeable posters on this board and I think we can have some good discussion on the issues affecting our black brothers and sisters (as well as others) in this country. There will be a lot of discussion points throughout the year(s) to come that will affect the sports world as well. I am hope we can have a civil thread where we can learn, challenge each other and express the viewpoints associated with some hot button topics that are all intertwined - it isn't just a stop killing black people issue:

 

For some reason, this entire situation has affected me and I have been trying to listen and learn as much as I can, never really expected to ever become this guy, but anyways here goes...

 

Systemic Racism

 

 

 

Before you can even touch the policing issue, this entire wheel and system needs to be broken:

 

The redlines, the lack of loans, lack of education, the turning to hustling to make ends meet, turning to drugs to drown the pain of being kept down by the machine and the damage to your psyche of self worth as a person solely because the color of your skin put you in a system that was designed to do just this. Fine you want equal rights, you can have it, but we will Fugg you a different way.

 

You have to have a real discussion as to what do you do with the generations of black people who are stuck cycling around or or stuck in specific areas of the cycle.

 

How do you lift them out? 

 

The term everyone hates, reparations, does to a degree change this - injecting money to stabalize 13% of the US population which should to a degree end some of the illegal hustling that occurs in those communities. You have to understand that the hustling is a result of low wages, which comes from a worse education experience, not everyone is able to pull themselves out. This somehow has to be addressed.

 

How do you assist the person who has become addicted to drugs due to the depression they encounter in life for not being able to provide for their family, those who did not have a fair chance in America, who didn't receive a good education, who grew up in a broken home from parents who were incarcerated for hustling etc. This is not easy by any means to help shore up such a weak part in society. How do you help the psyche of everyone, who has to plan every interaction every day and every minute of their lives?

 

You can't address the policing issue without creating a new foundation.

 

The Criminal Justice System

 

On the policing side of things there are basically 2 options:

 

1.) reform 

2.) abolition

 

Reform works good when you have a functioning system that is just and ours isn't. Our system functions exactly as it was designed. To encourage some discussion and to be provocative, my view tends more toward abolition. Here is a great website that discusses these 2 topics:

http://criticalresistance.org/abolish-policing/

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Reed83HOF

[Reed83HOF]

But there is more to than just the simple policing aspect of it. There are police unions (who were formed with good intent), but like everything can become corrupted over time. If you have a force that has enough "bad apples" they will chose a "bad apple leader". You have DAs who won't bring charges, the coroners (Minny ruled G. Floyd was natural causes), mayors and governors are scared to act against the police industry because of the veiled threat of have a great community of crime without us. You have non violent offenders who have been incarcerated due to the system racism above, how do you handle rehabilitating the people who are serving 10 years for dealing weed? How has prison changed them? Can they become functioning citizens again? How do you handle all of the mental issues that will have to be overcome to build trust and establish new patterns of behavior? It's all of this and it isn't a simple quick fix...

 

and finally

 

The Corportations

 

Industries and people profit off of all of this. There are lobbyists, private companies, publicly traded companies and employees who feed their families off of it, so dismantling this to ensure truly colorblind and just system, will affect this group as well. Here is a graphic I found:

 

This is not something that will get addressed over night and it will be very painful and tedious...

[Warcodered]

Moving from a punitive prison system to a more reformative one could also do wonders.

[Reed83HOF]

13 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Moving from a punitive prison system to a more reformative one could also do wonders.

 

so how do you go about it and what kind of reform are you thinking of?

 

If you take funds from let's say police and reallocate it over here, how do you deal with the system upfront that is "creating the criminals" in the first place? What do you do with the ones who are too far gone?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I'll put it out there: while I'm horrified by the death of George Floyd and David McAtee and Breonna Taylor and I'm sure there are many more of which I'm not aware,  I also see the police as a necessary stabilizing force in most communities. 

So unless I just don't understand what it means, I'm not "down there" with "defund the police" campaigns.  If it means scrap the current police force, what fills that function?  Mothers being shaken down by their druggie sons for their social security $$ need someone to call.  Ditto stores and banks being robbed.  The police do a lot of good, too.  Police forces did arise for good reason.

 

In 2016, in the wake of protests, several activists including Stanford grad and activist Samuel Sinyangwe came up with a plan called "Campaign Zero" (for zero unnecessary deaths).   I admire Sinyangwe because he tries to collect data, determine what seems to have an effect, and what doesn't, and be data driven.

 

Here's their original plan.  The website has details on each of the 10 points.  (It should be noted this is from August 2016 and the "President's Task Force" refers to Obama)

https://www.joincampaignzero.org/solutions#solutionsoverview

 

 

I don't know how professional police feel about these things; perhaps some of our officers or former officers such as @Bangarang @LeviF91 and @BillfromNYC would be generous enough to spend some time reading and tell us how they think (I will step on anyone who goes after you just for offering your perspective.  I have big feet.)

From the little I know I think police are generally not fond of "broken windows policing" eg arrest or issue citations for minor crimes such as loud music, jaywalking, sagging, driving with a tail light out, and would generally prefer to cultivate non-adversarial relations with the community, not pursue "for profit policing" (the two being often related) or have ticket quotas and the like.  I'm not sure what the police-side viewpoint is on body cams and demilitarization. I think "community oversight", "community representation", and "independently investigate and prosecute" lead to police concerns about having civilians second-guess a very dangerous job and the split-second judgements and decisions it demands of them.  I think feelings about union contracts are more mixed than one might think - I have been told of cases where the union has forced re-instatement of cops that fellow officers don't have much use for as officers and really don't want to work with.  On the other hand the protections union contracts with cities afford are welcome and valued wrt protection from reprisals by police chiefs and protection from politically motivated actions.

Anyway, a different substrate from that which @Reed83HOF put up.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Twitter thread from Sinyangwe explaining the research behind their current initiative #8cantwait

 

He and his campaignzero collaborators are being criticized by people pushing de-funding of the police as "wanting to improve policing's war on us"

His point is he wants to find immediate, actionable changes that have data to support a positive effect

He is also a pragmatist and I think, realizes that things like #defundpolice may not have enough support to achieve at this time (certainly not without a better explanation to the general public just what does that mean and just what would be the impact)

 

Here is the threadreader version

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1269298269055856641.html

[LeviF]

Tbh I’d rather just be beaten with a nightstick once in a while if it’s all the same 

[Foxx]

self responsibility/respectability.

[Niagara Bill]

I do not have the opinion that this should be anti police. Frankly it may mean a refocus.

1. Police need to be close to the community. All citizens need not fear the police. I am not smart enough to know how, but I do know the criminal element will replace the police if they do not fix the relationships. Example, the mafia developed in Sicily because the government was so untrustworthy the mafia created a protection and aid for those in need. Today the drug gangs are doing similar activities but with more intimidation. There was a time when cops did not carry guns...now today that is impossible but weapons create opportunities for violence, but cops should be problem solvers first, not force first, not tickets and not arrests first...

2. Law enforcement must stop the drug problem. Now I know it is not just the police, but society has a huge unspoken plague that is a root evil creating conflict and stereo types. The underprivileged see that business as a way out of their situation when racism is holding them down. This circumstance now creates systemic stereotypes...it has got to be fixed.

3. Education...good education, equal education, more education, a reason for education,  new methods of education, with opportunity not handouts.

4. Mandatory anti racism training for every employed person...there is a difference between overt racism and systemic...People must understand it.

I have been involved in helping develop and implement this type of initiative and helps people see how they contribute to the ongoing systemic problems. People do not need to be chastised, just educated. 200 years of racism is not my fault, the future is our responsibility.

5.There is nothing wrong with a global anti racism symbol, and kneeling seems to be catching on..why not.

6. Any public employee who demonstrates racism....termination, period.

 

Without a doubt I am part of the historic problem, I am listening and trying.

This list likely shows my built in prejudices, sorry for that, sincerely!

 

 

And many more initiatives...

 

 

[Gray Beard]

30 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

I do not have the opinion that this should be anti police. Frankly it may mean a refocus.

3. Education...good education, equal education, more education, a reason for education,  new methods of education, with opportunity not handouts.

 

And many more initiatives...

 

I think education is key...

If you got to school

If you try hard

If you are smart enough

If you get good grades

If you can somehow go to college

If you can find a job in your field

If you can avoid layoffs

...  you can get a mortgage!

 

... or you can hangout with your buddies, have fun right now, and not plan or worry about the future

[Niagara Bill]

19 minutes ago, Gray Beard said:

I think education is key...

If you got to school

If you try hard

If you are smart enough

If you get good grades

If you can somehow go to college

If you can find a job in your field

If you can avoid layoffs

...  you can get a mortgage!

 

... or you can hangout with your buddies, have fun right now, and not plan or worry about the future

Education need not be a PHD.

Smart is not the question, smart in what area is the key, engineer, plumber, 

Store mgr. Trucker, teacher, printer, programmer, farmer, 

Drugs and gangs are easy money and recognition for all youth. 

[JohnC]

A positive story of a good young man having his good deeds acknowledged in the midst of an environment of conflict. This link was taken from cnn.com. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/teen-cleans-buffalo-protest-rewarded-with-car-scholarship-trnd/index.html

[Niagara Bill]

18 minutes ago, JohnC said:

A positive story of a good young man having his good deeds acknowledged in the midst of an environment of conflict. This link was taken from cnn.com. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/teen-cleans-buffalo-protest-rewarded-with-car-scholarship-trnd/index.html

Feel compelled say that his love and respect is incredible. For those who returned it, superb. 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

2. Law enforcement must stop the drug problem. Now I know it is not just the police, but society has a huge unspoken plague that is a root evil creating conflict and stereo types. The underprivileged see that business as a way out of their situation when racism is holding them down. This circumstance now creates systemic stereotypes...it has got to be fixed.

 

 

I'm pulling out this little point.  I don't think law enforcement can stop the drug problem.  I think the only way to reduce the drug problem is to reduce demand.  To do that, focus on treatment and opportunity.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Regarding systemic racism and a concept of reparations. I was shocked to know these numbers:

 
Count of Americans below poverty line by demographics:

- Asian 2 million

- black 9 million 

- Hispanic 10 million 

- white 16 million

I understand percentages, etc. but still, these groups are all filled with hopeless vicious cycles that are almost inescapable irrespective of What you look like. 
 

On the rates two most eye popping:

-poverty rate for people who work full time year round is 2%

- poverty rate for family with one parent head of house, female is 24%

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/40546247

[Hapless Bills Fan]

46 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Regarding systemic racism and a concept of reparations. I was shocked to know these numbers:

 
Count of Americans below poverty line by demographics:

- Asian 2 million

- black 9 million 

- Hispanic 10 million 

- white 16 million

I understand percentages, etc. but still, these groups are all filled with hopeless vicious cycles that are almost inescapable irrespective of What you look like. 
 

On the rates two most eye popping:

-poverty rate for people who work full time year round is 2%

- poverty rate for family with one parent head of house, female is 24%

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/40546247

 

Oh shoot now you've done it.  

We're gonna have folks in here saying there's almost 2x as many whites below the poverty line than blacks so clearly this whole racism thing is Fake.

 

One of the most destructive things overall has been allowing businesses to avoid offering healthcare or benefits to workers who aren't full-time.

So now many of them have employee hours management programs that carefully ensure that employees stay below the threshold for being considered full time and receiving benefits, and many people work 2-3 jobs to put together enough hours.  They have more complicated scheduling, more travel time and expense, expanded overall time spent on the job, and less total compensation.  Plus their jobs are less secure.

 

 

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh shoot now you've done it.  

We're gonna have folks in here saying there's almost 2x as many whites below the poverty line than blacks so clearly this whole racism thing is Fake.

 

 

I wasn’t trying to go there, just that the numbers are shocking and hopelessness is pervasive.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I wasn’t trying to go there, just that the numbers are shocking and hopelessness is pervasive.

 

I know, just raggin' ya. 

 

Hopefully most can understand that if there are 6x as many white people as black people in this country (~250M and ~44M) that means 1 in 5 blacks lives in poverty, and 1 in every 17 whites lives in poverty.

[Warcodered]

 

[Gray Beard]

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh shoot now you've done it.  

We're gonna have folks in here saying there's almost 2x as many whites below the poverty line than blacks so clearly this whole racism thing is Fake.

 

One of the most destructive things overall has been allowing businesses to avoid offering healthcare or benefits to workers who aren't full-time.

So now many of them have employee hours management programs that carefully ensure that employees stay below the threshold for being considered full time and receiving benefits, and many people work 2-3 jobs to put together enough hours.  They have more complicated scheduling, more travel time and expense, expanded overall time spent on the job, and less total compensation.  Plus their jobs are less secure.

 

I feel that taking the healthcare responsibility away from business is a good idea.  ObamaCare for everybody with a lot of subsidies would be my choice.  Initially healthcare was offered as a perk, then it became standard procedure, then it became mandated.  
 

Rather than having the government spend a trillion dollars in tax cuts for the rich with some phony trickle down explanation, spend that money subsidizing healthcare.  What many people don’t factor into the equation is that employees and employers are paying that trillion dollars now anyway, it’s just not as obvious since it’s split up over so many people and so many pay periods.
 

It would be a huge benefit to smaller businesses if the burden of healthcare is removed, and it would allow for more jobs to be available; for example, rather than 60 hours/week from one employee, you could split that time among two employees. 
 

I apologize if I’ve strayed too far from the intention of this thread.

[Westside]

23 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

Education need not be a PHD.

Smart is not the question, smart in what area is the key, engineer, plumber, 

Store mgr. Trucker, teacher, printer, programmer, farmer, 

Drugs and gangs are easy money and recognition for all youth. 

We need to bring back blue collar work. Add more trade schools and make it easier to join them. 

Stop sending people to prison over petty crimes, like weed. I believe in rent control, make it affordable for a family to have a good, clean safe place to raise their kids. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 6/6/2020 at 9:59 PM, LeviF91 said:

Tbh I’d rather just be beaten with a nightstick once in a while if it’s all the same 

 

Perhaps this "kink" explains some excessive police use of nightsticks?  That's the personal kink of those officers, so they think they're getting the people they beat off? ?

 

Seriously, I'm not clear how to interpret this.  You'd rather not discuss the "Fixing the System" topic and this is one of those drive-by's where someone comes into a thread just to say "this is a stupid thread that doesn't interest me"?  You'd rather be beat with a nightstick than read the proposals Reed put up? 

 

I'd say "your kink is OK" but at this point, I think people are not going to settle down until some kind of change occurs, and I think change is more likely to be productive when we hear from all viewpoints of people who actually know something - police AND people in the communities

[Hapless Bills Fan]

25 minutes ago, westside2 said:

We need to bring back blue collar work. Add more trade schools and make it easier to join them. 

Stop sending people to prison over petty crimes, like weed. I believe in rent control, make it affordable for a family to have a good, clean safe place to raise their kids. 

 

These are very good points.  Infrastructure like public transportation (Washington DC subway) find it hard to hire skilled mechanics.  I've heard the same of other trades - plumbing, wiring, machining, woodwork.  But not sure what you mean by "trade schools".  At least around here, vocational education in HS has become scarce and hard to access, but there are plenty of "technical colleges" which will offer training - for high tuition.  So kids who used to be able to learn auto mechanics or electrical work in school, now have to go into debt for it.

100% agree that stop sending people to prison for petty crimes (weed is the least of it - traffic and civil infractions can become criminalized, jailable offenses if a court date is missed.  Stop sending people to prison for the follow-on to stupid ***** like driving with a busted taillight.

 

Rent control in a vaccum can be problematic, though.  If there are soaring maintenance costs due to vandalism or destructive tenants, it can result in delapidated, unlivable properties.  Pruitt-Igoe here in St Louis was not designed to be a squalid rat-trap

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_110314.html

[Westside]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

These are good points.

 

Rent control in a vaccum can be problematic, though.  If there are soaring maintenance costs due to vandalism or destructive tenants, it can result in delapidated, unlivable properties.  Pruitt-Igoe here in St Louis was not designed to be a squalid rat-trap

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_110314.html

I didn't think of that, I believe in my heart that we as Americans can do something so every family, every person who wants a safe place to live and raise their children. We have to do better as a country. If we can teach kids while they are young what is right and wrong,  that will go a long way to reducing crime, racism and every other ism out there. 

I truly believe we can do it

We have to do it

[Westside]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

These are very good points.  Infrastructure like public transportation (Washington DC subway) find it hard to hire skilled mechanics.  I've heard the same of other trades - plumbing, wiring, machining, woodwork.  But not sure what you mean by "trade schools".  At least around here, vocational education in HS has become scarce and hard to access, but there are plenty of "technical colleges" which will offer training - for high tuition.  So kids who used to be able to learn auto mechanics or electrical work in school, now have to go into debt for it.

100% agree that stop sending people to prison for petty crimes (weed is the least of it - traffic and civil infractions can become criminalized, jailable offenses if a court date is missed.  Stop sending people to prison for the follow-on to stupid ***** like driving with a busted taillight.

 

Rent control in a vaccum can be problematic, though.  If there are soaring maintenance costs due to vandalism or destructive tenants, it can result in delapidated, unlivable properties.  Pruitt-Igoe here in St Louis was not designed to be a squalid rat-trap

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_110314.html

I agree 100%

You definitely said it much better than I did.

As far as trade schools, growing up (many many years ago) high schools offered classes on everything from becoming a electrician to becoming a mechanic. We need more of that. Not everyone is college material. I know I wasn't. Let's make it easier for the younger generation to succeed and become valuable members of society. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, westside2 said:

I didn't think of that, I believe in my heart that we as Americans can do something so every family, every person who wants a safe place to live and raise their children. We have to do better as a country. If we can teach kids while they are young what is right and wrong,  that will go a long way to reducing crime, racism and every other ism out there. 

I truly believe we can do it

We have to do it

 

So my little story.  When I was a grad student, parking was problematic - distant lots and the neighborhood bad.  The U offered a shuttle service, so if I arrived early or left after most people I would ride the shuttle.  Got to know the am shuttle driver pretty well 'cuz at 6 am we were often the only ones on the bus.

 

She was a single mother of 2, raising her kids alone.  I don't know the back-story there.  Boy of 9, girl of 6.  To make ends meet, she was working 2 jobs and also going to community college trying to better herself.

 

But that meant she would get up at 4 am every day to be on duty at 5 am.  Her 9 year old was in charge of getting his sister up and dressed and ready for school.  She would call them to be sure they were up, and a neighbor would check in and walk them to the bus stop. When they came home, they were on their own until she got off her second job at 6 pm.  Then she'd see them for an hour or so before going to school.

 

I learned all this after I overheard her side of a conversation about a rock.  A rock.  I asked her, if it's not too nosy, would you mind telling me what that was all about?  Evidently the 6 year old had a homework assignment to bring a rock to school for some kind of craft project that, like lots of kids of all economic status all across America, the parent hadn't heard about until the morning just before school.  Except where two-parent homes who are working 1 job apiece have "backup" and someone there with the kids, here this lady was trying to coach the kid on maybe where he could find a rock for his sister without getting into some kind of trouble.  I mean, black child, maybe he's big for his age and looks like a youth, picking up a landscaping rock in front of your yard or maybe on a construction site, the potential for being perceived as bent on vandalism is clear.

Two points:

1) the whole low wage/lack of full time work cycle minimizes the ability of responsible people who are trying to do right by their kids to actually teach and raise them

2) ditto lack of support structure around childrearing in this country.  we depend upon a family structure that's just absent in some communities, especially poor ones

[Westside]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So my little story.  When I was a grad student, parking was problematic - distant lots and the neighborhood bad.  The U offered a shuttle service, so if I arrived early or left after most people I would ride the shuttle.  Got to know the am shuttle driver pretty well 'cuz at 6 am we were often the only ones on the bus.

 

She was a single mother of 2, raising her kids alone.  I don't know the back-story there.  Boy of 9, girl of 6.  To make ends meet, she was working 2 jobs and also going to community college trying to better herself.

 

But that meant she would get up at 4 am every day to be on duty at 5 am.  Her 9 year old was in charge of getting his sister up and dressed and ready for school.  She would call them to be sure they were up, and a neighbor would check in and walk them to the bus stop. When they came home, they were on their own until she got off her second job at 6 pm.  Then she'd see them for an hour or so before going to school.

 

I learned all this after I overheard her side of a conversation about a rock.  A rock.  I asked her, if it's not too nosy, would you mind telling me what that was all about?  Evidently the 6 year old had a homework assignment to bring a rock to school for some kind of craft project that, like lots of kids of all economic status all across America, the parent hadn't heard about until the morning just before school.  Except where two-parent homes who are working 1 job apiece have "backup" and someone there with the kids, here this lady was trying to coach the kid on maybe where he could find a rock for his sister without getting into some kind of trouble.  I mean, black child, maybe he's big for his age and looks like a youth, picking up a landscaping rock in front of your yard or maybe on a construction site, the potential for being perceived as bent on vandalism is clear.

Two points:

1) the whole low wage/lack of full time work cycle minimizes the ability of responsible people who are trying to do right by their kids to actually teach and raise them

2) ditto lack of support structure around childrearing in this country.  we depend upon a family structure that's just absent in some communities, especially poor ones

That's so sad, but unfortunately it's a way of life for millions of single parents. There has to be a better way. I know I'm not smart enough to figure it out, but I know there are plenty of people who are. That's were our tax dollars should go, helping americans have a good life. That story has made me so sad. 

[Gray Beard]

19 minutes ago, westside2 said:

I agree 100%

You definitely said it much better than I did.

As far as trade schools, growing up (many many years ago) high schools offered classes on everything from becoming a electrician to becoming a mechanic. We need more of that. Not everyone is college material. I know I wasn't. Let's make it easier for the younger generation to succeed and become valuable members of society. 

High schools have dropped most technical or vocational programs. In NY, there are technical courses offered at regional high schools (BOCES, Board of Cooperative Ed Services) which some kids have used successfully.  Also in NY there are a lot of community colleges that offer trade school types of programs.  The tuition is affordable for most, there are many opportunities to get assistance, and there is talk of making it free.  I would start there if the goal is to create a workforce capable of handling blue collar jobs.  

[Westside]

Just now, Gray Beard said:

High schools have dropped most technical or vocational programs. In NY, there are technical courses offered at regional high schools (BOCES, Board of Cooperative Ed Services) which some kids have used successfully.  Also in NY there are a lot of community colleges that offer trade school types of programs.  The tuition is affordable for most, there are many opportunities to get assistance, and there is talk of making it free.  I would start there if the goal is to create a workforce capable of handling blue collar jobs.  

I agree 100%

We have to make younger generations our top priority. I'm so tired of hearing kids getting caught up in gangs and drugs because they don't see any other way out. No more kids dieing in the streets. 

 

[LeviF]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 the people they beat off? ?

 

 

Are we not doing "phrasing" anymore?

 

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Seriously, I'm not clear how to interpret this.  You'd rather not discuss the "Fixing the System" topic and this is one of those drive-by's where someone comes into a thread just to say "this is a stupid thread that doesn't interest me"?  You'd rather be beat with a nightstick than read the proposals Reed put up? 

 

I'd say "your kink is OK" but at this point, I think people are not going to settle down until some kind of change occurs, and I think change is more likely to be productive when we hear from all viewpoints of people who actually know something - police AND people in the communities

 

"Abolish police" is not "fixing the system."  "Abolish police" turns America into a series of checkpoints, like any place in Africa with natural resources that developing nations are interested in (South Africans and the French will be able to make big money consulting on this).  And we all know how well that's going.  "Abolish police" = rise in private security for the wealthy, cost shifted to the evaporating middle class (whose security will be eroded quicker than their wealth), and gang rule of the urban poor.  And people who say "abolish police" will accept nothing less than exactly that, making it impossible to discuss things with them.  Functionally these people are anarcho-capitalists, whether they realize that or not, so any crying about "corporations" is laughably disingenuous.  Considering all that, yeah I'll take the beating instead of "green zone" America.

 

If someone regularly uses terms like "institutional-" or "systemic racism" and believes law enforcement constitutes an omnipotent bloc distinct from other public institutions, they don't live in the real world.  Which means I'm never going to end up in the same neighborhood, idea-wise, as them.

 

Is policing in America currently the best it could be?  Not if you ask me.  Shoutbox denizens can testify to what ideal policing consists of, philosophically, in my mind.  But someone who wants to throw out the baby instead of the bathwater has no interest in discussing real solutions.  

[Gray Beard]

9 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

 

Are we not doing "phrasing" anymore?

 

 

"Abolish police" is not "fixing the system."  "Abolish police" turns America into a series of checkpoints, like any place in Africa with natural resources that developing nations are interested in (South Africans and the French will be able to make big money consulting on this).  And we all know how well that's going.  "Abolish police" = rise in private security for the wealthy, cost shifted to the evaporating middle class (whose security will be eroded quicker than their wealth), and gang rule of the urban poor.  And people who say "abolish police" will accept nothing less than exactly that, making it impossible to discuss things with them.  Functionally these people are anarcho-capitalists, whether they realize that or not, so any crying about "corporations" is laughably disingenuous.  Considering all that, yeah I'll take the beating instead of "green zone" America.

 

If someone regularly uses terms like "institutional-" or "systemic racism" and believes law enforcement constitutes an omnipotent bloc distinct from other public institutions, they don't live in the real world.  Which means I'm never going to end up in the same neighborhood, idea-wise, as them.

 

Is policing in America currently the best it could be?  Not if you ask me.  Shoutbox denizens can testify to what ideal policing consists of, philosophically, in my mind.  But someone who wants to throw out the baby instead of the bathwater has no interest in discussing real solutions.  

 

The progressives, or left wingers are shooting themselves in the foot with these “abolish” slogans.  Abolish ICE, Abolish Police, Abolish Gun Laws, etc. just turn off most people.  I know it’s more impactful to say Abolish rather than Tweak, but it is just dumb.

[Seasons1992]

Beats.............get police back into neighborhoods ON FOOT, and interact with people and businesses. 

[KD in CA]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

One of the most destructive things overall has been allowing businesses to avoid offering healthcare or benefits to workers who aren't full-time.

 

Go further.  Why is healthcare the responsibility of employers?  I have literally picked health plans for the employees at my companies several times.  I'm an accountant by trade.  How does that make sense?   People should purchase health insurance individually with appropriate government oversight to prevent cherry picking.   Gov't plans can pick up the slack for those who fall between the cracks (which they already do in huge numbers for the unemployed, non-FTEs, etc).   Putting further burden on private employers is a band-aid, not a cure.

 

Also, police unions are a popular target these days and rightly so.  Again, go further.  Why do we have public unions at all?  Their main purpose is to perpetuate the cycle of corrupt money flowing between entrenched government officials and giant organizations that put their own needs far ahead of the public.  I bring this up because, as noted above, the core issue here is deeper than just race, it's about poverty.  If you really want to reduce poverty, you must teach people how to overcome it.  Our education system doesn't make any attempt to do that.   If it did, financial literacy would be taught in every grade from Kindergarten through Senior year.  But no one wants that because an intelligent populous threatens entrenched powers.  So what will we do for poor people out of all this?  Probably give them a bigger child tax credit, which will lift no one out of poverty.  Another band-aid instead of a cure.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I know, just raggin' ya. 

 

Hopefully most can understand that if there are 6x as many white people as black people in this country (~250M and ~44M) that means 1 in 5 blacks lives in poverty, and 1 in every 17 whites lives in poverty.

hence my, “I understand the percentages” comment.
 

white is about 9%, black 20%, Latino 18% Asian about 10% In the link I attached if I recall. 
 

With the biggest risk for poverty 24% is single parent, female head of household and poverty’s. 

but yet it is disproportionate.
 

I wish I could conclude myself if systemic racial inequity is a root cause or is it a symptom...  

 

At some point I’d want to dive into the Jewish case and compare history and trends. They were targets of a less protracted racial injustice, but similar concept of enslavement with mass killing as well but did lose at least a generation of potential wealth and prejudice certainly remained for some time after the war, assuming systemic racism as well. 
 

I’m curios particularly in Germany how they fared over the past two or three generations, and if similar themes are found, or Lessons on how things were made better. 

[Just Joshin']

2 hours ago, westside2 said:

We need to bring back blue collar work. Add more trade schools and make it easier to join them. 

Stop sending people to prison over petty crimes, like weed. I believe in rent control, make it affordable for a family to have a good, clean safe place to raise their kids. 

The actual consequence of rent control are negative.  Two things occur:

1.  The landlord stops improving the existing spaces because their revenue is called while expenses increase (taxes, other services).  The units degrade and become less desirable.

2.  New construction will stop.  The cost to build and maintain will be in excess of the return.

 

The solution is actually the opposite.

1.  Reduce taxes.  These costs either get passed along to the renters.

2.  Reduce the paperwork and regulations.  The cost to build in very much in excess of the physical cost.  It adds time and money which increase the cost which increases the rent.

3.  Increase the places where new construction can occur.  Zoning limits and NIMBY activists keep new construction down.

 

In short, reduce the costs and barriers to new construction.  This will increase the supply and reduce total costs which reduce rents.

[Warcodered]

2 hours ago, LeviF91 said:

 

Are we not doing "phrasing" anymore?

 

 

"Abolish police" is not "fixing the system."  "Abolish police" turns America into a series of checkpoints, like any place in Africa with natural resources that developing nations are interested in (South Africans and the French will be able to make big money consulting on this).  And we all know how well that's going.  "Abolish police" = rise in private security for the wealthy, cost shifted to the evaporating middle class (whose security will be eroded quicker than their wealth), and gang rule of the urban poor.  And people who say "abolish police" will accept nothing less than exactly that, making it impossible to discuss things with them.  Functionally these people are anarcho-capitalists, whether they realize that or not, so any crying about "corporations" is laughably disingenuous.  Considering all that, yeah I'll take the beating instead of "green zone" America.

 

If someone regularly uses terms like "institutional-" or "systemic racism" and believes law enforcement constitutes an omnipotent bloc distinct from other public institutions, they don't live in the real world.  Which means I'm never going to end up in the same neighborhood, idea-wise, as them.

 

Is policing in America currently the best it could be?  Not if you ask me.  Shoutbox denizens can testify to what ideal policing consists of, philosophically, in my mind.  But someone who wants to throw out the baby instead of the bathwater has no interest in discussing real solutions.  

defund ≠ abolish

[Niagara Bill]

16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm pulling out this little point.  I don't think law enforcement can stop the drug problem.  I think the only way to reduce the drug problem is to reduce demand.  To do that, focus on treatment and opportunity.

I agree with you but I said police need to stop the problem but I also said it was a societal issue causing  untold problems. Treatment is an issue but the growing numbers is like the covid19, we must stop the growth as well have treatment. 13 year old making money selling dope...ouch...how to stop,  I have no idea...but it must.  I have been taught this, society has taught me.It is one of the big roots of racism and stereotyping.  

In the parking lot in Paris Tenn. sits a Prius, Camry, Honda Accord, Ford Escape, and 2010 Ford pickup. Walk into the bar and a guy with t-shirt, dusty ball cap, jeans, and a long neck Bud is leaning against the bar,.

Stereotypically which vehicle is his. 

I don t want to be prejudice but I have been taught..TV, music, movies, etc.

 

The good guy wears a white cowboy hat, 

 

[LeviF]

41 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

defund ≠ abolish

 

Can you please inform me where in the OP the word "defund" appears?

Edited June 8, 2020 by LeviF91
nicer

[Warcodered]

12 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

 

Sorry, I'm an illiterate pig, can you please inform me where in the OP the word "defund" appears?

Defund is the term I've seen thrown around more commonly but I guess you're right the op and the the article he referenced did use the term abolish.

 

I don't really get why as it doesn't eliminate the police, restructure/reorganize would of made more sense to me but I guess they went with abolish to emphasize the significance of changes it represented. But the green part of the chart is what they meant and it isn't the total elimination of the police like you seem to think.

On 6/6/2020 at 12:27 AM, Reed83HOF said:

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Warcodered

[LeviF]

11 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Defund is the term I've seen thrown around more commonly but I guess you're right the op and the the article he referenced did use the term abolish.

 

I don't really get why as it doesn't eliminate the police, restructure/reorganize would of made more sense to me but I guess they went with abolish to emphasize the significance of changes it represented. But the green part of the chart is what they meant and it isn't the total elimination of the police like you seem to think.

 

 

Then why does their website call them "abolitionist steps?"

 

I'll give you a hint: the green part of the chart isn't an endgame.

 

In any case, all these represent steps towards anarcho-tyranny.  Police abolition at any level means that violent crime will not be patrolled for or acted against while armed state agents will harass business owners who commit whatever the crime du jour is: violation of mask edicts, refusal to bake a cake, etc.

Edited June 8, 2020 by LeviF91