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YoloinOhio

Cover 1 evaluation of Laviska Shenault and in-depth overview of injury history

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19 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He was very good his first three seasons and one of the best and most dangerous players in the league in his third season despite truly awful quarterbacking (Ponder and a decrepit McNabb).  He was also good in his fourth season, and if he had been healthy in that Seattle SB season, he probably would have racked up massive numbers. I'd take that. Again, though, let's wait to see how Shenault measures out in his 40, 20, and shuttle times. Harvin was elite in those areas.


If I’m wanting a McKenzie replacement, I’ll wait for a guy like Quartney Davis in the 3rd—I really want a dynamic WR1 in rounds 1-2.

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3 hours ago, warrior9 said:

DK and Deebo last year had very limited route trees.

 

DK had questions about his catching ability as well.

 

The long story short of this: The NFL has coaching that these players don't get in college. All of your banter has that talks about him being all over the field as if it's a bad thing is sooo odd to me. Did you watch the Bills this year? This is how we run our offense. We use receivers in different ways. So do the Chiefs (MeCole Hardman also had a "limited tree") with Hill. Saints use Taysom Hill, 49ers use Samuel and the list goes on. 

 

This is the new NFL and I'm having a hard time figuring out why it's a weird thing that his coaches at Colorado tried getting the ball in their best players hands whenever possible.

 

He also had a very poor QB with no other talent around him. He was the team. This, along with his production, along with him lining up all over the field... are ALL good things. I don't love this guy but some of your reasoning as to why you don't like him are just weird to me.

 

You want Higgins that played about awful competition and had a top 3 QB in the country? I mean...... Or Jeudy or Ruggs that had the benefit of playing with each other? Shanault had no one the other team had to worry about.

Dude he's just not my favorite WR in the class

 

And I watched tons of Colorado games because he interested me last year

 

And I watched every bills game atleast twice lol

 

I don't know where you are getting the bolded because I never once said anything negative about him being used all around, I said he is a jack of all trades so I'm confused

 

I said he is not an elite X , Y or slot guy rn which he is not

 

Edited by Buffalo716
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59 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:


If I’m wanting a McKenzie replacement, I’ll wait for a guy like Quartney Davis in the 3rd—I really want a dynamic WR1 in rounds 1-2.

Percy Harvin was plenty dynamic and specialized in what McKenzie gets called upon to do. I don't know at all if Shenault is that guy, but I'd take a healthy and happy version of Percy Harvin 8 days a week at the #22 slot.

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Dude he's just not my favorite WR in the class

 

And I watched tons of Colorado games because he interested me last year

How much was he hampered by injury in '19?

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3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Dude he's just not my favorite WR in the class

 

And I watched tons of Colorado games because he interested me last year

 

I get he's not your favorite. Your reasons why he isn't your favorite, should kind of make you like him more for the Bills, specifically.

 

-Run after catch ability.

-Best player on his team-- coach wants the ball in his hand

-Plays multiple positions-- Bills love players like this. 

-Deep threat that can make contested catches-- something we missed.

 

He's not my favorite either.. I really like Jefferson's game, however, if we landed him.... it'd be a good get.

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I could see Beane being very aggressive in the draft if he thought another team was going to pick him & Beane using draft capital to go up & get him, he looks like the kind of player that would help Josh a lot to take the next step in his progression !! 

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1 minute ago, warrior9 said:

 

I get he's not your favorite. Your reasons why he isn't your favorite, should kind of make you like him more for the Bills, specifically.

 

-Run after catch ability.

-Best player on his team-- coach wants the ball in his hand

-Plays multiple positions-- Bills love players like this. 

-Deep threat that can make contested catches-- something we missed.

 

He's not my favorite either.. I really like Jefferson's game, however, if we landed him.... it'd be a good get.

I like that he's a jack of all trades, he's versatile

 

What I don't like is that he isn't a polished X or Y reciever because he has been used everywhere and that has stunted his route tree

 

I think his YAC is phenomenal

 

And I will debate his NFL deep threat ability a little because he only caught like 15 balls last year over 15 yards downfield and I don't think he will run a 4.4. Can he get down the field and catch, yes

 

But I think he will be more a short , intermediate worker in the league

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2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Just thinking out loud, but the idea would not be to get a replacement gimmick player, but a Percy Harvin-type player (who was absolutely sensational when healthy early on and worth the early 20s pick that he ended up being). Of course, Harvin ran a 4.41, so it's going to come down to how Shenault tests out. 

I think we are still in a place where we need more than that out of the WR position and I can find a gimmick type player in RD3 and lower. This is a direct sounding question and it will come of prick-ish; not meant that way. Love and respect your opinion. 

 

1.) In this up coming season, where we need to take a step forward, and not a 2021/2022 projection; how much of an upgrade do you see Shenault being over Mackenzie?

a.) based on what we know about Daboll wanting WRs to make reads and decisions

b.) getting through a full route tree

c.) have the D scheme against him specifically to open up the rest of the offense to our less elite players?

d.) Does a Percy Harvin player help us score enough points consistently to win and "score more points"

e.) Does he give us enough talent to help Josh not do it all on his own?

f.) Will he be enough as a WR to help us really know what we have in Josh come contract time?

 

16 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I like that he's a jack of all trades, he's versatile

 

What I don't like is that he isn't a polished X or Y reciever because he has been used everywhere and that has stunted his route tree

 

I think his YAC is phenomenal

 

And I will debate his NFL deep threat ability a little because he only caught like 15 balls last year over 15 yards downfield and I don't think he will run a 4.4. Can he get down the field and catch, yes

 

But I think he will be more a short , intermediate worker in the league

and I just feel that we can do better at a WR who will help the entire offense and Josh more than this. We need a player who is a threat to take it to the house every time he gets his hands on the ball. 

Edited by Reed83HOF
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4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

And I will debate his NFL deep threat ability a little because he only caught like 15 balls last year over 15 yards downfield and I don't think he will run a 4.4. Can he get down the field and catch, yes

 

Actually, it was just 14 catches with the ball in the air 10+ yards, per PFF.     

 

The highlight packages on Youtube make it seem like he was running deep routes all the time, however...

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I think we are still in a place where we need more than that out of the WR position and I can find a gimmick type player in RD3 and lower. This is a direct sounding question and it will come of prick-ish; not meant that way. Love and respect your opinion. 

 

1.) In this up coming season, where we need to take a step forward, and not a 2021/2022 projection; how much of an upgrade do you see Shenault being over Mackenzie?

a.) based on what we know about Daboll wanting WRs to make reads and decisions

b.) getting through a full route tree

c.) have the D scheme against him specifically to open up the rest of the offense to our less elite players?

d.) Does a Percy Harvin player help us score enough points consistently to win and "score more points"

e.) Does he give us enough talent to help Josh not do it all on his own?

f.) Will he be enough as a WR to help us really know what we have in Josh come contract time?

 

and I just feel that we can do better at a WR who will help the entire offense and Josh more than this. We need a player who is a threat to take it to the house every time he gets his hands on the ball. 

Fair enough, but I really think that people are forgetting how good Harvin was when he was healthy. He was spectacular both catching and running the ball. He had 52 carries for 345 rushing yards (6.6 ypc) in his third season to go on top of 1,000 yards receiving and a 72 percent catch rate from abjectly terrible QBs.

Edited by dave mcbride
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2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Fair enough, but I really think that people are forgetting how good Harvin was when he was healthy. He was spectacular both catching and running the ball. He had 52 carries for 345 rushing yards (6.6 ypc) in his third season to go on top of 1,000 yards receiving and 72 percent catch rate from horrible QBs.

Don't disagree and I would like those numbers in 3 years, when I have a luxury of making that pick in RD1 and need that kind of production now.

 

Plus in his rookie year he had Favre; granted in went to Ponder after that, but he had Kyle Rudolph, Shiancoe, Steve Hutchinson, Bryant McKinnie and a very young and explosive AP. We have Josh Allen, Devin Singletary, Kroft/Knox/JasonP/Sweeney, Felciano, Ford/Nysche/Dawkins/Spain

 

They also had a freaking amazing DL back then. 

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2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Fair enough, but I really think that people are forgetting how good Harvin was when he was healthy. He was spectacular both catching and running the ball. He had 52 carries for 345 rushing yards (6.6 ypc) in his third season to go on top of 1,000 yards receiving and a 72 percent catch rate from abjectly terrible QBs.

 

 

If a few good seasons of playmaking...........including one amazingly productive one............was the standard for an excellent first round pick then we'd see CJ Spiller in a different light.

 

Harvin was a gimmick player with a concerning injury history coming out of Florida and he had a brief NFL career with one great season and a few nice one's.   

 

As you know one of my standards for using a first round pick is that it's a player you'll be glad to extend a second contract at market value. 

 

If you get to the end of that first deal and the guy has pretty much done what you hoped and you are still like........."meh, we're fine without that"..........then you picked the wrong guy.

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7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

If a few good seasons of playmaking...........including one amazingly productive one............was the standard for an excellent first round pick then we'd see CJ Spiller in a different light.

 

Harvin was a gimmick player with a concerning injury history coming out of Florida and he had a brief NFL career with one great season and a few nice one's.   

 

As you know one of my standards for using a first round pick is that it's a player you'll be glad to extend a second contract at market value. 

 

If you get to the end of that first deal and the guy has pretty much done what you hoped and you are still like........."meh, we're fine without that"..........then you picked the wrong guy.

What took him down were injuries and personality/attitude. The first can affect literally anyone in the NFL, and the second was unique to Harvin and probably the biggest red flag on him. I also fully believe that if he had been healthy in Seattle in 2013, he would have had a career season.  He wasn't a gimmick player, either; he was one of the most explosive players in the league who could beat anyone around the edge on a rushing play and take it to the house on a five-yard slant. Plus he was a GREAT KO returner, with 6 TDs (including the Super Bowl) in his first 5 seasons. That is rare.

 

Also, unlike Spiller, when Minnesota moved on from Harvin, they actually got a great return from Seattle: a 2013 first round pick, a 2013 seventh round pick, and a 2014 4th round pick.  

Edited by dave mcbride

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It may all be moot on Shenault as he seems to be rising up mock draft boards right now.

 

Jay Skurski's mock in today's Snooze  ( https://buffalonews.com/2020/02/07/buffalo-bills-nfl-mock-draft-chaisson-skurski/ ) has him coming off the board at 15 to the Broncos, to give Drew Lock some help.   Jay's got the Raiders taking Lamb at 12 and Jeudy going to the Colts at 13, as both teams need WR help.  I've seen this in other mocks as well.

 

I know this kind of stuff is written in cool whip this time of year, but it makes me think the guy Skurski mocks to the Bills -- K'Lavon Chaisson from LSU -- may well be where our first round pick goes.

 

I can't see Beane trading up to the top 10 to jump ahead of the Raiders or Colts for one of the elite WRs.    More than likely, the run on WRs will push good defensive players down and they'll get the benefit of that.    And then snag a WR in round 2 or even round 3...

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24 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

What took him down were injuries and personality/attitude. The first can affect literally anyone in the NFL, and the second was unique to Harvin and probably the biggest red flag on him. I also fully believe that if he had been healthy in Seattle in 2013, he would have had a career season.  He wasn't a gimmick player, either; he was one of the most explosive players in the league who could beat anyone around the edge on a rushing play and take it to the house on a five-yard slant. Plus he was a GREAT KO returner, with 6 TDs (including the Super Bowl) in his first 5 seasons. That is rare.

 

Also, unlike Spiller, when Minnesota moved on from Harvin, they actually got a great return from Seattle: a 2013 first round pick, a 2013 seventh round pick, and a 2014 4th round pick.  

 

Here's the Percy Harvin story:

 

Explosive but oft-injured RB at Florida........obviously not built for the punishment.

 

Moved to WR as a pro to preserve him..........but wasn't really a route-diverse WR........which tamped down his playmaking potential.

 

So they said f*ck it let's hand him the ball more like they did at Florida.

 

He had a big year but took a beating and never played healthy again.

 

His career ypc is 11.4 because he wasn't very good as a downfield receiver..............which is one of the questions that comes up with Shenault who rarely saw a pass thrown over 10 yards to him.

 

The rationale for taking Roscoe Parrish was that he was super quick and also very fast and would make big plays.............and he did make some memorable big plays and contributed at an elite level on special teams...........but they passed on the bigger slower Vincent Jackson to take the electric Parrish and Jackson averaged almost 17 ypc over his long career and Lil' Scoe netted 11.2 ypc in his brief one.   

 

A great combo of speed and quickness is nice but being able to run without the ball and get in position to get big yards by catching the ball downfield is actually what I am looking for in a 1st round WR.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Lurker said:

It may all be moot on Shenault as he seems to be rising up mock draft boards right now.

 

Jay Skurski's mock in today's Snooze  ( https://buffalonews.com/2020/02/07/buffalo-bills-nfl-mock-draft-chaisson-skurski/ ) has him coming off the board at 15 to the Broncos, to give Drew Lock some help.   Jay's got the Raiders taking Lamb at 12 and Jeudy going to the Colts at 13, as both teams need WR help.  I've seen this in other mocks as well.

 

I know this kind of stuff is written in cool whip this time of year, but it makes me think the guy Skurski mocks to the Bills -- K'Lavon Chaisson from LSU -- may well be where our first round pick goes.

 

I can't see Beane trading up to the top 10 to jump ahead of the Raiders or Colts for one of the elite WRs.    More than likely, the run on WRs will push good defensive players down and they'll get the benefit of that.    And then snag a WR in round 2 or even round 3...

 

 

Talent other than WR will be pushed up the boards and WR will be pushed down due to the depth.

 

The teams drafting in the top 10 for instance will be drafting Edge, QB, OL and likely a S, pushing those elite WRs down. Yes those teams have WR needs, but they are such bad teams they can afford to wait the 2-3 years for the next group of WRs to develop and push that need into the later rounds due to the depth of that position in the draft. The drop off from the Top Edge, OL, QB is so great, those talents will go much higher and leaving those 3 WRs to the 9-15 range (provided no one jumps in)

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2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

 

Talent other than WR will be pushed up the boards and WR will be pushed down due to the depth.

 

The teams drafting in the top 10 for instance will be drafting Edge, QB, OL and likely a S, pushing those elite WRs down. Yes those teams have WR needs, but they are such bad teams they can afford to wait the 2-3 years for the next group of WRs to develop and push that need into the later rounds due to the depth of that position in the draft. The drop off from the Top Edge, OL, QB is so great, those talents will go much higher and leaving those 3 WRs to the 9-15 range (provided no one jumps in)

 

Do you think the Raiders at 12 and Colts at 13 will pass on a WR?     I personally don't, so if the Bills really covet Lamb or Jeudy, they'd have to jump ahead of them -- which would be pretty costly to move up that far.     

 

They might go up to 17 with Dallas if Ruggs was still there, but that's it on the offensive side.   I'd like to see them maybe go to 15 with Denver and take Epenesa, with Denver still getting Shenault at 22...

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41 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Do you think the Raiders at 12 and Colts at 13 will pass on a WR?     I personally don't, so if the Bills really covet Lamb or Jeudy, they'd have to jump ahead of them -- which would be pretty costly to move up that far.     

 

They might go up to 17 with Dallas if Ruggs was still there, but that's it on the offensive side.   I'd like to see them maybe go to 15 with Denver and take Epenesa, with Denver still getting Shenault at 22...

 

ATL gave up #26, #58 & a 4th to go to #6; granted that was a million years ago.

 

KC gave up basically #27, a 2nd & a 3rd to go from #27 to #10. Which is a lot. Beane said last year that he would prefer to trade up and use assets for that current year only, which is why I added the 2nd instead of the following year #1. 

 

Realistically I think 2 of those 3 will be there at #12,13 & 14. The Raiders can easily prioritize any position at 12 depending on who is there, it is going to be a very fluid situation. The deep draft at the WR position is going to push them down the board and make a trade up more palatable. 

 

I was able to find this today from a Joe B interview last April:

Beane said on Monday that he tiers the board in the first round by three ways: top players, middle players, and bottom players. If he could assure himself a top player by worsening his position in one of the later rounds, that's a calculated risk I think Beane would be willing to make.

 

The notion of 'BPA' is sometimes used as a crutch by decision makers in and around the draft because it's a very general term that usually wards off counter questions from the media because the 'BPA' strategy has an air of finality to it. However, all things can be true here. Most notably, the needs of a roster and the theory of a team in the importance of position can weigh players on their draft board -- or at least I've come to believe as much with the Bills after listening to Brandon Beane and Sean McDermott over the past two years. Beane is doing his best to play poker, but nothing is more telling than the decisions that they've made in the past. And with their two first-round picks in 2018, we saw the Bills attack a need at a premium position both times, and if I had to guess, I believe that trend will continue along on day one of the 2019 NFL Draft. (Me - We took Oliver - pass rusher/disruptor big position of need)

 

from the 2018 draft:
 

An incredible combination of patience and luck meant Beane had given up fewer assets in that move than anticipated. Retaining the 22nd pick and hoping for an impact player, Edmunds inexplicably slid down the board. When he was still there at pick 14, Beane knew he had to make a move. Edmunds was the right combination of impact and need that spurred the Bills to take action again.

 

“He was sticking out on our board, and it’s a need,” explained Beane. “If a guy is sticking out on our board, and it’s really not a need, you might not do it. But with the hole we had there, and where he was on our board, it was a no-brainer. Even if we could have got to 14, we would have done it.”

 

The thing is Beane will have an idea what to accomplish in the draft and he won't sacrifice that, but We have to score more points and we have to help Josh. Daboll needs WRs who can make reads and adjustments and run good rout trees. Also need good hands to catch Josh's rockets and to be able to adjust for the ball, we need YAC and a guy who can get separation quickly from the DBs so josh can get rid of the ball quickly when pressured. Not too many of those guys. To go from #22 and up we will need to give up more then CLE's #1 in RD3...

 

Apologize for my lengthy posts lately...

Edited by Reed83HOF
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1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Here's the Percy Harvin story:

 

Explosive but oft-injured RB at Florida........obviously not built for the punishment.

 

Moved to WR as a pro to preserve him..........but wasn't really a route-diverse WR........which tamped down his playmaking potential.

 

So they said f*ck it let's hand him the ball more like they did at Florida.

 

He had a big year but took a beating and never played healthy again.

 

His career ypc is 11.4 because he wasn't very good as a downfield receiver..............which is one of the questions that comes up with Shenault who rarely saw a pass thrown over 10 yards to him.

 

The rationale for taking Roscoe Parrish was that he was super quick and also very fast and would make big plays.............and he did make some memorable big plays and contributed at an elite level on special teams...........but they passed on the bigger slower Vincent Jackson to take the electric Parrish and Jackson averaged almost 17 ypc over his long career and Lil' Scoe netted 11.2 ypc in his brief one.   

 

A great combo of speed and quickness is nice but being able to run without the ball and get in position to get big yards by catching the ball downfield is actually what I am looking for in a 1st round WR.

 

 

?? - He missed at most a couple of games at Florida in his entire career at Florida. He was extremely productive in college: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/percy-harvin-1.html

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2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

?? - He missed at most a couple of games at Florida in his entire career at Florida. He was extremely productive in college: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/percy-harvin-1.html

 

 

Yeah my bad he certainly didn't have injuries to the degree of Shenault......... it was more about Harvin being a difficult player to coach(choked one of his coaches.......and as good as Meyer was at covering ***** up the fact that came out.......it probably wasn't the half of it).    

 

And yes he was productive but as an "athlete"..........he wasn't a 1,000 yard rusher or receiver..........jack of 2 trades.........that didn't translate to a stellar career as either a WR or RB.

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On 2/5/2020 at 6:32 PM, BuffaloRebound said:

I like the clips of him playing in the snow!  

 

Might be a natural...….he is a Buffalo after all ;)

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